Jinjer: Shopping in Bookstores

[onekidanddone]

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

@LurkySame thing happened with "His Dark Materials." The first book is titled, "The Northern Lights," but for some reason the US publisher changed it to, "The Golden Compass." 

If I remember right, Philip Pullman was most displeased.

I talked about the Golden Compass books just last night. A friend of Mr. One Kid says Pullman is coming out with a new book this fall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Dust  Neat.

[aprilx]

Surely satsumas, clementines and tangerines are all different ? All varieties of small oranges, but have differences in taste, sweetness and type of skin?

this is my first post by the way, from a long time British lurker

[JillyO]

30 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

But if they are constantly confused, then they stop reading. Think about it. Do you keep reading a book or article if the majority of the vocabulary is unknown? Most people don't (especially if reading for pleasure rather than work, assigned class reading, etc...). A book at reading level for a student is not considered to be one that is only familiar words but is also one that does not have an overwhelming number of unfamiliar words.

Who the hell is talking about a majority of the words being unknown? English is still English, whether it's British or American. The vast majority of words are the same or we'd have so much trouble understanding each other on this forum. It's more a case of maybe one in a thousand words being unfamilar. Hardly enough to become overwhelming.

I was 13 when The Order of the Phoenix came out. I, and most of my friends, read it in English because none of us wanted to wait until the German translation came out months later. Were there words in the English version we didn't understand? You bet, and way more than for a native speaker of American English who reads a British version. But we all understood the story anyway. As you said, most things we were able to figure out from contextual clues. If there was a word we didn't know and we couldn't figure it out by ourselves, we would occasionally consult a dictionary. I did that for maybe three whole words. Didn't diminish my enjoyment of the book. And I learned so many new words. You don't exactly learn about wands and cauldrons and divination in English class in your typical German public school.

[sawasdee]

SO much to say after reading this thread!

1. My 3 bedroom house has bookshelves in EVERY room  - in my living room, I have 8 metres of underwindow shelving that is triple stacked, and 3 tall, 1 metre by six shelf bookcases that are also triple stacked. In my bedroom, and the other two, I have free standing bookshelves 1metre x 6 shelves - also triple stacked. And I have PILES on the table, bedside tables, the floor .... yes, I am a bookaholic.

2. Libraries. I LIVED in libraries as a child in the UK - was twice locked in when they went to lunch, and on one never to be forgotten occasion wet myself because they were gone so long... I was 8.

My first library visit was when I was 3. And my first book was Thomas the Tank Engine. I had tickets at five different libraries when I was 11.....a total of 30.

In Thailand, we have no libraries. And the selection of English language books in local stores is poor - and not much better in Bangkok.  Before ebooks, I went to Bangkok every three months and bought between 20 and 30 books - now I download, but still prefer paper - I just can't get it on paper for most of what I want to read.

3. My friends used to say that if they saw me in street without a book in front of my face, they wouldn't recognise me. I have great peripheral vision, from walking along reading all my life!

4. I used to play truant from school in order to go to the library....I'd get out 6 or 8 books, and sit on the CIrcle Line in London all day reading - with a forged dentist appointment card in my pocket in case I was questioned. (And for those who know London, Sloane Square had toilets and a coffee shop on the platform for essential maintenance!)

5. Translating from American English to English English, or vice versa - amongst my favourite books as a 10 year old were Perry Mason. It took me a while to understand that 'purse' in America is 'handbag ' in English - a purse in the UK holds money, and goes INTO the handbag - but it didn't affect my enjoyment.

6. The Philosopher's Stone has a particular meaning - it was the quest of alchemists in mediaeval times to find the stone that changed dross to gold - I don't think that 'Sorcerer's Stone' conveys the same meaning. And that, for me, is the problem in 'translating'.

In short - I love books. I am a compulsive reader. And I don't regret it at all - it comes honestly. We had bookshelves in the bathroom when I was growing up - and my sister is a librarian!

Go, booklovers!

 

[Coconut Flan]

9 minutes ago, missegeno said:

I was definitely introduced to the word Satsumas in the US, long before I lived in Britain, so I didn't realize people thought it was a British term. But kumquats? What does the US supposedly call kumquats? Because that's the only term I've heard for them (and I don't think I ever actually encountered them in the UK).

I'm in the US and knew what a satsuma was and also kumquats (which is what they are also called here).  I don't think kumquats are all that commonly consumed across the country.  They have been much more common when we've lived in citrus growing areas of the US as in we had a kumquat tree in the yard once. 

13 minutes ago, aprilx said:

Surely satsumas, clementines and tangerines are all different ? All varieties of small oranges, but have differences in taste, sweetness and type of skin?

If we really, really need to go there I refer you to this website:  https://www.thespruce.com/types-of-oranges-and-tangerines-2216772

Quote

Satsumas are tangerines, a variety of small mandarin oranges.

 

[Markie]

I'd like Jinger to check out some classics, American and International. To Kill a Mockingbird, The Grapes of Wrath, Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Wuthering Heights, Little Women, as well as a variety of plays. I tried to think back to what I read in high school. 

It might be fun for her to join a book club in Laredo. A good way to get to know more people in their neighbourhood. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

12 minutes ago, Markie said:

I'd like Jinger to check out some classics, American and International. To Kill a Mockingbird, The Grapes of Wrath, Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Wuthering Heights, Little Women, as well as a variety of plays. I tried to think back to what I read in high school. 

It might be fun for her to join a book club in Laredo. A good way to get to know more people in their neighbourhood. 

A book club is a great idea! I hope she has time, what with the church-lady-duties she has now. Hopeful some of the parishioners will invite her to do some normal things, like book club, coffee chats, etc. 

But please no Gatsby! One of the worst books I ever forced myself to read. It was horrid!

[ItsMeY'all]

I grew up in Oklahoma using or at least knowing many if not all of these words.    I guess I never thought about some of these words not being used in America as often. For me satsuma or kumquat were words used by an older generation much like saying handbag or pocketbook instead of purse (a purse held coins inside of your handbag according to my grandparents). I grew up knowing about biscuits and cookies and was taught multiple spellings for words like gray/grey and color/colour. Guess I'd just assumed everyone else did the same even though we didn't often speak or write in such a manner. 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, onekidanddone said:

I talked about the Golden Compass books just last night. A friend of Mr. One Kid says Pullman is coming out with a new book this fall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Dust  Neat.

I need this in my life... 

Back to the vocabulary discussion -

I should probably clarify. I'm all for people learning new vocabulary. If changing a word or two that are completely insignificant to the overall plot will make reading more enjoyable and encourage people to read more and the author is fine with it... I have no issues with it. It's not ideal of course, but I personally don't think it's a major issue. If the author does take issue with it then I do think the publisher should abide by their wishes (wishful thinking, I know.)

I do see how changing the title of a book for that reason is problematic though. Because a word in a title is likely to be highly significant to the story and chosen for a specific reason by the author. That I'm not ok with. Especially when the author isn't happy about the change or feels pressured into agreeing (I believe Rowling has stated she did feel like she had to agree because she was a new author. Not ok with me.)

I'm also firmly against censoring offensive language in literature when it's used in the correct context. For instance, "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn," and the use of the n-word. I'm not comfortable saying that word out loud or even typing it, but I also feel very strongly that censoring it or changing it to something else is completely wrong. Twain picked that specific word for a reason - that reason being cultural and historical context. It would do a massive disservice to the book to change it.

And I'm against using the term "dumbing down" when used in this context because it just sounds condescending to me. Maybe that isn't the intention and I misinterpreted the actual meaning. If that's the case then I'd appreciate being corrected.

So, to sum up:

Changing "satsuma" to "orange" = not a big deal.

Changing "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone" = problem.

(And the only book I have ever really hated was "Moby Dick." I actually threw that book against a wall and proclaimed never again. I also cheered for the whale.)

[onekidanddone]

2 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

(And the only book I have ever really hated was "Moby Dick." I actually threw that book against a wall and proclaimed never again. I also cheered for the whale.)

Never read Moby Dick, but one of the books I hated was The Great Gatsby.  Wealthy vapid people who did nothing but drink and out snob each other.

[SapphireSlytherin]

7 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

using the term "dumbing down" when used in this context because it just sounds condescending to me. Maybe that isn't the intention and I misinterpreted the actual meaning. If that's the case then I'd appreciate being corrected.

Not condescending at all. Simply frustrated at the consistent lack of challenging our (American) children to stretch their minds and learn to understand and accept the differences this amazing world has to offer. Our (American) children are lagging behind the rest of the civilized world, education-wise, and it's only getting worse. 

 

And I thought I was the only person who threw horrible books against the wall! Haha

[Carm_88]

I've hated many a book. Anna Karenina and Gone With the Wind are the most recent ones that I can think of.  

[Audrey2]

I didn't mind The Great Gatsby, but I refuse to read Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury again. I hated it, and it's the only book I've felt completely lost reading.

[sawasdee]

Love Faulkner! Steinbeck was my other great love American author, and I read a lot of Hemingway - enjoyed him at fourteen - not so much as an adult. Read Gone With The Wind under the desk during Religious Education classes when I was thirteen - loved it. Read it again in my twenties - HATED it.

Revisiting books is so interesting......and instructive. In many cases , it shows how society's views have changed as to what is acceptable.

The true classics survive societal changes - yeah for Jane Austen!

[mpheels]

(And the only book I have ever really hated was "Moby Dick." I actually threw that book against a wall and proclaimed never again. I also cheered for the whale.)

@VelociRapture I had a similar reaction when we read Billy Bud in 11th grade American literature, instead of Moby Dick. I literally had to read out loud to myself to get through it. Thankfully, it's relatively short.

10 minutes ago, Audrey2 said:

I didn't mind The Great Gatsby, but I refuse to read Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury again. I hated it, and it's the only book I've felt completely lost reading.

I had to read The Sound and the Fury in the same 11th grade literature class. I loved it, and it's the only reason I squeaked by with a B- in the class. 

[NotQuiteMotY]

19 hours ago, Escadora said:

Yeah, actually, I totally get that. Are there any movies you've liked more than the books despite having experienced both? Different isn't always a bad thing, and some adaptations have been really awesome.  

Blood and Chocolate. I even read the book first, my normal method, but the movie was a lot more enjoyable.

26 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

Never read Moby Dick, but one of the books I hated was The Great Gatsby.  Wealthy vapid people who did nothing but drink and out snob each other.

Catcher in the Rye. Oh, man, Catcher in the Rye. I HATED Holden. I spent the whole thing wanting to grab him by the shoulders and shake sense into him.

[mpheels]

5 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

Love Faulkner! Steinbeck was my other great love American author, and I read a lot of Hemingway - enjoyed him at fourteen - not so much as an adult. Read Gone With The Wind under the desk during Religious Education classes when I was thirteen - loved it. Read it again in my twenties - HATED it.

Revisiting books is so interesting......and instructive. In many cases , it shows how society's views have changed as to what is acceptable.

The true classics survive societal changes - yeah for Jane Austen!

I've always been a Hemingway girl. I still love to read his books, but Hemingway the man lost a lot of his appeal as I learned more about his personal life. Brilliant writer, terrible person.

[sawasdee]

@mpheelsExactly - I think finding out more of him as a person coloured my view of his writing.

But I still rather like his barebones style - and A Moveable Feast is still one of my favourite books.

[PennySycamore]

My 11th grade English teacher told us that if she caught us falling asleep in her class that she'd make us read Moby Dick.  She said that you couldn't fall asleep if you were really bored and she thought that Moby Dick was the most boring book ever.

[cascarones]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

When teaching reading comprehension, the dictionary is the last resort. Strong readers use context clues, connections to prior knowledge, and know when not knowing a word does not affect overall understanding of a passage. 

Reading something with a dictionary beside you disrupts the overall comprehension of a passage as you must stop and start with the actual text. 

It's true, when I lived in NYC I did comprehension tutoring for the Regents tests. What I'd do was have them try the passage and questions, but highlight what they didn't understand so we could discuss it later. For city kids who've barely been to a different burrow reading about 18th century farm life and being able to correctly pick up the allusions and comparisons is really different, there's just no frame of reference for even context clues to help.  They were also really used to just whipping out their smart phone when they didn't know something, so not being able to was tricky.

 

For Jinger I'd second the Madeline L'engle books, all of them, she's got some really interesting autobiographical works in there. I'm blanking on the name, but there's a book for couples with a love poem a day for reflection or shared devotionals. Some old English, some funny and some newer, the one that sticks out in my head is the husband's humbling by realizing his sock drawer is never empty.  

[missegeno]

Not condescending at all. Simply frustrated at the consistent lack of challenging our (American) children to stretch their minds and learn to understand and accept the differences this amazing world has to offer. Our (American) children are lagging behind the rest of the civilized world, education-wise, and it's only getting worse.

The US also has a lot of great education. Some is horrendous, but some is top notch. Generalizations bug me. England isn't any more a bastion of intelligence and quality learning than the US. The Jeremy Kyle Show, Towie, and Geordie Shore show that England isn't the country of pure class and intelligence that it so often purports to be. It has a range just like anywhere else. Living in England and learning about that educational system has actually vastly improved my pride in the American system. It's very broken, yes, and needs work, but let's not pretend England is highly intelligent while the US must be "dumbed down." I feel like people always compare the struggling areas of America (which do get a lot of media coverage) to London and Oxford, instead rural to rural, farmers to farmers, top tier to top tier, and so on.

[feministxtian]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

When teaching reading comprehension, the dictionary is the last resort. Strong readers use context clues, connections to prior knowledge, and know when not knowing a word does not affect overall understanding of a passage. 

I agree...and even for an adult, hearing something for the first time, or reading something for the first time, being able to figure out what is being said w/o a dictionary is important. I rarely use a dictionary to get the meaning of an unfamiliar word...stretching the brain is always a good thing. 

[sawasdee]

In the UK, in my day - the 60s - you read a LOT of Dickens.  Some was so boring, but his character names always cheered me up - the nouveau riches called Veneering, the horrible schoolteacher called McChoakumchild,the incompetent beadle called Bumble - he could make me laugh, even as I was bored.

We also had to read Walter Scott - now that guy could bore for Europe! And thank Rufus, we also got Sheridan - with a teacher who taught us the rules of 18th century duels, and had us duelling with rulers in class. She also taught Austen, Gaskell and George Eliot, and is probably the reason I still love all three. Thank Rufus for gifted teachers - and from me, thank you, Miss Greenslade!

We also had to study a Shakespeare play a year, and thanks to the same teacher, I still enjoy Shakespeare. She would have us act it out in class, with various accessories she provided.

Teachers like her should have a national memorial.

[Lurky]

Genuinely don't understand how words like biscuit, glasses, revision, satsuma, git, etc etc would put a child off reading forever.

I guess it's because as a Brit, I'm expected to be able to parse American/Australian/Canadian English without it being changed.  Little Women, Anne of Green Gables,Tom Sawyer, Sweet Valley High, Margaret Mahy, Judy Blume, Elizabeth Enright etc etc etc weren't changed, and while I didn't understand eg the USA grade system until I was in my 30s, it didn't stop me enjoying the books.  And hell, even British-English children's books like eg E Nesbit, Wind in the Willows, early Roald Dahl, Noel Streatfeild etc etc had a ton of words that didn't make sense to be, because language and context changes fast over time.

If I was reading eg Little Women, and I didn't understand a word or phrase, I just glossed over in when I was 9 or 10, because it didn't impact on the plot, in the same way I'd gloss over a word in E Nesbit/Noel Streatfeild.  Later on, I'd parse it in context, or ask someone, or look it up.

I wonder if it's a specifically American thing to expect all words to be changed for them?  Because I guess if pretty much everything is changed, a 'weird' word might seem more confronting?  But for the people who think having Britishisms in a book would stop an American child enjoying it, what do you think about older, 'classic' books that also have terms (and ideological concepts) that modern kids wouldn't understand?  Or do you advocate putting out updated versions of Anne of Green Gables/Little Women/Are You There God, It's Me Margaret/Nancy Drew/the Betsy-Tacy books/From The Mixed Up Files Of Mrs Basil E Frankweiler too?

[singsingsing]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

But if they are constantly confused, then they stop reading. Think about it. Do you keep reading a book or article if the majority of the vocabulary is unknown? Most people don't (especially if reading for pleasure rather than work, assigned class reading, etc...). A book at reading level for a student is not considered to be one that is only familiar words but is also one that does not have an overwhelming number of unfamiliar words. 

It is also important to remember that Harry Potter was not sold as a text book to improve vocabulary but as books for kids to read for pleasure. When trying to promote reading for pleasure, we don't want to push kids too far beyond their comfort zone. Too much challenge is not enjoyable. There is, ideally, a balance between challenging their knowledge and vocabulary skills and meeting them where they are--so that they will keep reading. 

The majority of the vocabulary in the British versions of HP would most definitely not be completely unknown to American children. The fact that Harry Potter was also an enormous phenomenon in Canada, when most of the 'Britishisms' were just as unfamiliar to kids here, should put to rest any notion that American kids need books edited to remove any unfamiliar vocabulary from other cultures. I'd be totally with you if the books were written in some kind of obscure vernacular almost impossible to decipher, trust me. Actually, I think I more or less agree with you, it's just that the British versions of Harry Potter actually aren't what you're describing.