Jinjer: Shopping in Bookstores

[BoPeep]

We have tons of books in our home.  We homeschool (so books to go along with what we're studying), and my kids devour books.  I just spent the am trying to fit 3 more boxes of books onto our already full shelves!!  I ended up pulling several books to sell/donate that were below my kids' reading level.  We have shelves in 3 bedrooms, and in our mbr our nightstands are packed....with me having overflow in an old wine crate.  Our lr has three 8' tall bookshelves, and the pie safe in our kitchen has 2 shelves filled with books.  It's a bit crazy, and we normally deal with piles of books here and there.

My kids will sometimes want fluffy/easy to read books, but I buy more of the older books...1930-1970's books.  The vocabulary is richer.  We're currently reading together a book from the 1930's, and we keep my phone nearby to look up the words we don't know!  I love that the sentences are full, rich, and deep!  I should make my kids diagram those bad boys!! 

I'm not very impressed with the silly books written today.  I know not all of them are ridiculous, but I want better books for my kids than many of them nowadays.  So we seek out library sales, thrifts stores, used curriculum sales, and used book stores for older books.  In the last week and a half, we bought A TON of new books, as the local homeschool groups are getting rid of last year's books.  It's so much fun to hunt for new ones!!  

 I honestly don't understand people who homeschool (aka the Duggars), and don't live at the library and/or used book stores.  I thought homeschooling = learning, learning, learning!  It's REALLY NOT that hard to weed out books with themes you prefer your kids to not read.  99.8% of the time I can glance at the back cover and/or look at a page or two, and say yes or no to a book.  The other .2% of the time, my kids will tell me when they've encountered something in the book they know we'd rather they didn't read, and they'll stop reading the book.  We talk about why I am saying no to a book, so they understand what is still too old for them, and/or why we believe certain themes are best left unread at this point.   

 

[trustworthy]

3 hours ago, missegeno said:

I was definitely introduced to the word Satsumas in the US, long before I lived in Britain, so I didn't realize people thought it was a British term. But kumquats? What does the US supposedly call kumquats? Because that's the only term I've heard for them (and I don't think I ever actually encountered them in the UK).

Kumquats.  'Cause that's what they are.

[VelociRapture]

47 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Not condescending at all. Simply frustrated at the consistent lack of challenging our (American) children to stretch their minds and learn to understand and accept the differences this amazing world has to offer. Our (American) children are lagging behind the rest of the civilized world, education-wise, and it's only getting worse. 

 

And I thought I was the only person who threw horrible books against the wall! Haha

Thank you! I absolutely misread it then because I do agree with this assessment (sorry!)

I do think that the quality of education largely depends on the school district. Which is really unfortunate. Where you're born shouldn't determine the quality of education you receive. Though, with DeVos and Trump in charge... 

[BoPeep]

6 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

"Satsuma" isn't completely unknown in the US. Truman Capote used it in his short story "A Christmas Memory." Does anyone know if it's used in Alabama?

Satsumas are grown in Alabama.  They are a citrus that can grow this far "north" of central Florida.  They are also delicious!

[sawasdee]

Going back to what I said about my great English teacher - she taught me for seven years, and in the last two, we studied Chaucer in the original middle english. For my year, the set text was Troilus and Criseyde.

Now this has some very basic language. Some verses describe her 'quynte' - pronounce it, and you'll get the present day equivalent. Miss Greenslade would ask us to prepare translations for the next lesson.

To give you an idea of how much she was loved by her students, we could see red rising up her neck as we approached the more embarrassing verses. We would just say ' oh, I think we've got the next bit - what about stanza 32?' And avoid having her to translate/agree our translation.

It was a perfect opportunity to embarrass a teacher in our very proper Catholic school - and none of us did. And we were bolshy 16-17 year olds.

I think that says everything about what she was as a teacher.

I wish I had had the chance to thank her, as an adult, before she died.

[ItsMeY'all]

I was just talking about this thread with my husband as I frequently 'misspell' American words by using their British counterparts and he likes to tease me about this. Sadly his take is spot on. "The only reason publishers change any words is they have done market research and know what sells. They don't care about reading comprehension, changing the underlying message of the story, or anything besides what makes the most money."

[19catsandcounting]

28 minutes ago, Lurky said:

I wonder if it's a specifically American thing to expect all words to be changed for them?  Because I guess if pretty much everything is changed, a 'weird' word might seem more confronting?  But for the people who think having Britishisms in a book would stop an American child enjoying it, what do you think about older, 'classic' books that also have terms (and ideological concepts) that modern kids wouldn't understand?  Or do you advocate putting out updated versions of Anne of Green Gables/Little Women/Are You There God, It's Me Margaret/Nancy Drew/the Betsy-Tacy books/From The Mixed Up Files Of Mrs Basil E Frankweiler too?

I can't speak for everyone, but, no, I don't think we expect it. I think some people were just saying they can see positives in the changes. 

I think it's important to remember, too, that we didn't all go out and vote on whether or not the books would be changed. The publishers decide these things, and we get what we get. I don't have specific examples, but I believe I've heard of movie titles sometimes getting changed for British audiences. It's the same thing - just an effort to make something more marketable.

2 minutes ago, ItsMeY'all said:

The only reason publishers change any words is they have done market research and know what sells. They don't care about reading comprehension, changing the underlying message of the story, or anything besides what makes the most money."

Exactly! 

[BoPeep]

3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I taught for ten years at a school where the feeder system was very poor at teaching reading. Most students came in at sixth grade with reading comprehension scores in the 3rd and 4th grade range. Along with knowledge from my teacher education courses, a colleague and I spent a good deal of time researching the newest methodologies for teaching reading comprehension. 

I'm sorry that research and good teaching strategies are so offensive to you. But the fact of the matter is that reading fluency is disrupted if the answer to unknown words is always and only "look it up in the dictionary". Fluency is extremely important to comprehension because successful comprehension is more than just understanding the definition of individual words. I am not trying to offend you. But some of us have actually studied how people read most effectively. That is what professional educators do. 

But if they are constantly confused, then they stop reading. Think about it. Do you keep reading a book or article if the majority of the vocabulary is unknown? Most people don't (especially if reading for pleasure rather than work, assigned class reading, etc...). A book at reading level for a student is not considered to be one that is only familiar words but is also one that does not have an overwhelming number of unfamiliar words. 

It is also important to remember that Harry Potter was not sold as a text book to improve vocabulary but as books for kids to read for pleasure. When trying to promote reading for pleasure, we don't want to push kids too far beyond their comfort zone. Too much challenge is not enjoyable. There is, ideally, a balance between challenging their knowledge and vocabulary skills and meeting them where they are--so that they will keep reading. 

I think teaching 6th graders who read on a 3rd/4th grade level will need to follow what you're saying....make the reading more fluent and less challenging.  But for 6th graders who read at an 8th-9th grade + level, the challenge isn't as disruptive to their enjoyment.  I think both you AND @Four is Enough are correct, depending on a child's readiness and reading level.  

[Lurky]

9 minutes ago, ItsMeY'all said:

Sadly his take is spot on. "The only reason publishers change any words is they have done market research and know what sells.

So why don't they change American books for other English-speaking markets?  What do they do about books written pre, say, the 1980s, which are full of words and concepts modern kids wouldn't understand?  I don't believe for a moment that if I got a bit confused about American biscuits, SATs,  grade school etc but still read American books as a child, American kids couldn't cope with British biscuits, O Levels, primary school and so on.    Or maybe I just have more faith in USA kids than USA publishers, and some of the American commenters here...

13 minutes ago, sawasdee said:

It was a perfect opportunity to embarrass a teacher in our very proper Catholic school - and none of us did. And we were bolshy 16-17 year olds.

I think that says everything about what she was as a teacher.

Yeah, as 16 year olds, reading the Wyf of Bath's tale of A levels, our class were ruthless because we really didn't like our teacher. I always remember him blushing, stammering and explaining that quynte meant "marriage tackle", which just made us worse...

[SapphireSlytherin]

43 minutes ago, missegeno said:

I feel like people always compare the struggling areas of America (which do get a lot of media coverage) to London and Oxford, instead rural to rural, farmers to farmers, top tier to top tier, and so on.

This is funny to me, because my nephews live in an extremely rural, typically low-income area and they're miles ahead of kids I know here in the USA, including in low-income, rural towns, and in the "big city" where I currently live. My daughter will tell you the same, and she had the benefit of a "big city, highly ranked private school" education.

 

I have a friend who spent the first 6 years of his education in Scotland; when his family moved to the USA, he ended up in my grade (9th) even though he was the age of a US 6th grader--he was that far ahead of us!

 

And it's not just the U.K. I lived in Germany and Austria, and the kids there that I knew were (again) miles ahead of US kids. 

 

Please know I'm not denigrating teachers (my dad, maternal grandmother, and three great-grandmothers were teachers). Our education system is broken and needs help, but that's another topic for another time -- and I'm not talking about homeschooling a la the Duggar  family. Those kids don't have a handle on basic grammar. :/

 

[GreyhoundFan]

20 hours ago, Escadora said:

Yeah, actually, I totally get that. Are there any movies you've liked more than the books despite having experienced both? Different isn't always a bad thing, and some adaptations have been really awesome.  

snip

I tend to like books better than the film or TV show. However, I loved the film "Brooklyn", but didn't really enjoy the novel.

Just like so many who have commented on this thread, I am a huge reader. My mom read to me from day one and said that I started reading on my own very early. If it's a book I like, I can rev through it in a day or less. For the first half of ninth grade, we had to move temporarily to the Monterey, CA area. I was assigned to an awful school. I would take at least one novel with me every day and read when I was bored in class. During that six months, I read an average of ten books a week. I don't know how I would have made it through the semester without my books.

I never made it through "Moby Dick". I also despised "Oliver Twist". But, my least favorite book ever is "As I Lay Dying" by Faulkner. We had to read that in AP English. I kept shouting at the book, it made me so angry. I don't mind stream of consciousness, but that book was SOC on steroids. I still remember the chapter, entitled "Vardaman" for the narrator of said chapter, that consisted entirely of the line: "My mother is a fish." I was like WTDH? I get it was being told from a child's perspective and the dead mother was literally stinking up the area, but argh.

On the topic of Jinger, I wish she'd read some mainstream books, but it's not likely.

[trisprefect]

I remember being 11 years old when HP first came out, and was frankly offended at the thought that American readers such as myself needed to have vocabulary changed so that we would understand it. In this case, I think the changes did not stem from a literary brand of American exceptionalism where our way is the right way and language should be changed for us, but rather from the publisher's lack of faith in the average reader as they pursued the almighty dollar.

[Coconut Flan]

9 minutes ago, 19catsandcounting said:

I think it's important to remember, too, that we didn't all go out and vote on whether or not the books would be changed. The publishers decide these things, and we get what we get. I don't have specific examples, but I believe I've heard of movie titles sometimes getting changed for British audiences. It's the same thing - just an effort to make something more marketable.

Exactly.  They are trying to sell a product.  Sometimes they do things that don't work out as expected or are needed.  We get relabeled TV shows also. 

[Karma]

If jinger wants to spend lots of time reading books, I'd strongly suggest that she not get hooked on reading fj. This forum has dramatically reduced the number of books I would otherwise have read over the last couple of years!

[sawasdee]

When I was about 14, I was reported to school by someone who sat next to me on a bus. I was reading 'The Ginger Man" by J P Donleavy - then on the banned list for catholics.

My school uniform was unique in London, so they had no problem knowing which school I attended. (I was in the process of trying to read the banned list....Sholokhov was great!).

The school withdrew library privileges, and gave me detentions.

My English teacher's reaction was to lend me books. She lent me Hemingway, Steinbeck, Faulkner, Salinger, Woolf, Forster, Greene - all outside my school experience.

I truly believe that she was one of the most influential people in my life.

Thanks to her, I have never stopped reading - and that was 50 years ago.

ETA So all you teachers out there - there may be someone in 2067 saying how you changed their life!

[BoPeep]

I went to private, Christian schools from preschool through 5th grade....6th grade in public school nearly killed me with boredom.  The spelling words were words we had in the 2nd grade.  Ya'll, that was an abeka education* I had, prior to 6th grade.

I don't know what the local schools teach, nor do I care.  Our state is 50th in the nation for education, and I won't chance it.  I also know that MY public education wasn't always productive.  I had some very good teachers (ALL my math teachers from 8th grade up, my 12th grade English teacher, my art teacher, my German teacher), a few decent teachers, and then I had several bottom of the barrel....counting the days till retirement....teachers.  Too many of the last.  Public school was a waste of my time, and it sucked all desire of learning from me.  I want curious kids who love to learn....and that's what I have.  They also have time and space to be who they are, and to read books constantly.  They go through about 2 books a day during school, and 3-6 a day during the summer.  This makes me so happy!

* (I know abeka gets denigrated at times, but for reading, vocabulary, and their old math...elementary ONLY!....it was a strong foundation.  Their current elementary math is terrible, imo, and I've never heard anyone say anything good about their 7th grade+ math programs!  But I love their phonics philosophy, and while I didn't use their phonics workbooks...I used their method and their readers to teach reading to my children.)

[xlurker]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I'm also firmly against censoring offensive language in literature when it's used in the correct context. For instance, "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn," and the use of the n-word. I'm not comfortable saying that word out loud or even typing it, but I also feel very strongly that censoring it or changing it to something else is completely wrong. Twain picked that specific word for a reason - that reason being cultural and historical context. It would do a massive disservice to the book to change it.

Can not like this enough!!!  I let both my kiddos read this book while in or around the 6th grade, and when their teachers found out they CALLED me to "explain"  that "this type" of book was inappropriate.  Now my kids were (are) readers, the youngest reading the HP books at around 8 and understanding them.  I had them  read alot of classics.  Around the same age they were reading (and enoying) books such as Dracula, Moby Dick, The Magic Garden, and lots of the original fairy tales.  Change Mark Twain's words....it astounds me!  I too, never use that word, but he had written the book in the vernacular of the time....you can't erase history, but should always learn from it.

[Justmurrayed]

I got in trouble by my teacher in Grade 5 for reading a book after I had finished my math work. I'm not exactly sure what she wanted me to do but I remember thinking she was an idiot back then as I was forced to wash the blackboards after school. Ugh. That teach was the worst. 

[Nikedagain?]

2 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Never read Moby Dick, but one of the books I hated was The Great Gatsby.  Wealthy vapid people who did nothing but drink and out snob each other.

LOLZZZ

Literally just bought this for 50 cents at a thrift store: 

(not the calico, she has cattitude, therefore she is priceless!)

 

[jerkit]

I am #teamdictionary. Sure, I can figure out most words from context or ignore it because I generally understand the passage, but in order to add that word to my vocabulary, I need to know its definitions and its proper usage. I prefer learning new words to glossing over something.

[VelociRapture]

@sawasdeeOne of my favorites was my English teacher Junior year. She was also my yearbook advisor. Sweetest and kindest person ever.

We read Huck Finn that year. She told us that anyone uncomfortable saying the word while reading out loud was allowed to skip it or substitute with n-word - but she also spent an entire class explaining the historical and cultural context behind the use of the n-word in the book and why it's usage was so important. 

My favorite college Lit professor was a leading expert on Norman Mailer. He was a fantastic teacher and an even better person. My favorite Mailer fun fact is the use of the word "fugg" in, "The Naked and the Dead." Publishers wouldn't publish the word "fuck" when it was first published - so Mailer got around it by using "fug" instead. Kind of his little personal "fug you" to the publishers and public. 

(Mailer lived a very interesting life, but is another author who could very much be an asshole.)

... I loved pretty much all my English teachers and professors to be honest. Lol!

8 minutes ago, 19catsandcounting said:

I can't speak for everyone, but, no, I don't think we expect it. I think some people were just saying they can see positives in the changes. 

I think it's important to remember, too, that we didn't all go out and vote on whether or not the books would be changed. The publishers decide these things, and we get what we get. I don't have specific examples, but I believe I've heard of movie titles sometimes getting changed for British audiences. It's the same thing - just an effort to make something more marketable.

This exactly. It's ultimately up to what the publishers think will sell best. As far as I know, we really don't expect any changes. Personally, I like reading the unchanged versions because they're more fun, but I also understand that others feel differently. I'm all for encouraging readers to just read at first and then introducing more challenging material.

(And to everyone: I haven't been clear, but when I say "readers" I mean ALL readers of all ages and abilities - not simply the average or above average student.)

@xlurkerOnly thing inappropriate there is the school's reaction. Twain is fantastic for his satirical take on so many aspects of 19th and 20th century American culture. More kids should be encouraged to read him.

[Coconutwater]

I can't imagine growing up without books. I was read to and with since I can remember, when I was a child I had one wall of books taking up space in my room and I was so far ahead in my reading that during reading time at school they would send me to the library, it was wonderful, books are a wonderful escape and I hope Jinger ventures out into her reading. It really does seem like Jeremy is letting her pursue her passions and find out who she is (I hope so anyway) maybe once she finds her love of books she will pass it on to her siblings. 

[SamiKatz]

I'm not a fan of Catcher in They Rye.  At all.

[JMO]

Not that this isn't a fabulous thread drift but I got all interested when I saw how hot this thread is trending. Man, I was thinking something exciting finally happened in Laredo. 

[FleeJanaFree]

I'm really glad my parents never once attempted to censor my reading. (To be honest those true life rape stories in YM and Sventeen magazines I read in elementary school made me rather prudish...I was terrified of getting raped! It's ironic how reading things can make you avoid things -like dating -your parents may want for you, except it's your own decision.  )

 

i do vividly remember being on a cross country road trip when I was 11 And out of desperate boredom I read one of my moms romance novels, aka light porn. She saw me reading it, but we never discussed it. It's  funny for me to remember that. MEchelle would have a stroke.

 

for the most part my dad was the one that encouraged me to read. He constantly took me to the library, I think he was happy for the company. He didn't care or monitor what I read as long as I read. It was the best possible gift he could have given me in life. I think every type of situation some people want to prevent their kid from reading too early is an opportunity for an important conversation. With you, if the child's comfortable, a teacher, a friend, etc. just someone!  You can learn a lot about culture, dangers, puberty, and unfairness of life in books. I feel I'm more emphatatic overall as a result of bonding with so many characters.

 

One of the reasons I feel so strongly about the Alice series by Phyllis Reynolds Naylor even as an adult is they were sort of an adult replacement for me. I had a mom, but we weren't close. I couldn't approach her about my period, sex questions, fights with my friends, jealousy, drinking or drugs, etc.  the author of those books walked me through it all. I want every child to have the opportunity to open a book and learn those things too if they have embarrassing questions. It's a shame to think some places or parents censor those books.

i hope I can be the kind of parent that if my child reads something that bothers them like rape, they can come to me and we can discuss that awful reality.