Jinjer: Shopping in Bookstores

[VelociRapture]

@LurkySame thing happened with "His Dark Materials." The first book is titled, "The Northern Lights," but for some reason the US publisher changed it to, "The Golden Compass." 

If I remember right, Philip Pullman was most displeased.

[Lurky]

3 hours ago, JillyO said:

Surely the language differences were easier to bridge if we didn't "translate" everything from British to American English, though. I have full faith that Americans could eventually figure out what satsumas are even if they call them mandarins or tangerines.

Hell, if I could understand Judy Blume at 11, including the really weird belt contraptions for sanitary pads, and all the very time-and-country-specific stuff on schooling/teen culture etc etc, I have faith that USA 11 year olds could cope with satsumas, revision, glasses etc etc!

[SilverBeach]

Unpopular opinion...I have never given a rats ass about Harry Potter and my eyes glaze over when it is the topic of discussion. Then again, fantasy is not a genre I embrace. 

Just now, Lurky said:

Hell, if I could understand Judy Blume at 11, including the really weird belt contraptions for sanitary pads, and all the very time-and-country-specific stuff on schooling/teen culture etc etc, I have faith that USA 11 year olds could cope with satsumas, revision, glasses etc etc!

Hey, I used that really weird belt contraption, posted a picture of one somewhere.on FJ.

[mydoggoskeeper]

Even as a born and bred midwesterner, I had very little difficulty with the language when I lived in London.  Tweaking my vocab slightly felt appropriate in many cases as saying "bathroom" instead of "toilet" when sounded unnecessarily nasally in my accent.  Some britishisms stuck in my vocab when I came back stateside.  I still say "have you any...?" and whilst.   

I am an avid cook so I enjoyed many of the British cookery terms like rocket, sultanas, and airing cupboard.  It took a bit to mentally convert from cups to grams and set the temperature correctly on my oven!

[SapphireSlytherin]

Adding to the recommended reading list for Jinge... Remember, she has no concept of what "normal" teens read. I suggest:

 

Flowers in the Attic (the whole sordid, horrible series)

 

It, The Stand, Salem's Lot

 

And, of course, the HP and Hunger Games series

 

 

 

[Topaz]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

@LurkySame thing happened with "His Dark Materials." The first book is titled, "The Northern Lights," but for some reason the US publisher changed it to, "The Golden Compass." 

Maybe they were thinking about the best way to get people to easily recognise the books as a trilogy (and thus buy all three). The Golden Compass sound much more like it belongs with The Subtle Knife and the Amber Spyglass. 

I like Northern Lights much better as a title though, and not just because unlike the knife (and maybe the spyglass - did it have a proper name?) the device referenced isn't even a compass. Although if you are trying to dumb down a title then The Golden Alethiometer is probably not going to make the cut.

[VelociRapture]

3 minutes ago, Topaz said:

Maybe they were thinking about the best way to get people to easily recognise the books as a trilogy (and thus buy all three). The Golden Compass sound much more like it belongs with The Subtle Knife and the Amber Spyglass. 

I like Northern Lights much better as a title though, and not just because unlike the knife (and maybe the spyglass - did it have a proper name?) the device referenced isn't even a compass. Although if you are trying to dumb down a title then The Golden Alethiometer is probably not going to make the cut.

Here we go:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Lights_(novel)

Title change had nothing to do with "dumbing things down." The publisher mistook what the golden compass actually referenced and became attached to that title. Pullman settled on "His Dark Materials" as the title of the overall trilogy and the publisher decided "The Golden Compass" should be the title of book one.

And this isn't directed at just you at all. You just mentioned it in it your reply, but it's meant as a general comment: 

I do find it a bit insulting when people claim things are dumbed down by switching a bit of vocabulary for American readers. I never see that claim made when American literature is changed around to benefit British readers. If changing a few terms makes it easier for for someone then I'm all for it because at least the person is reading and enjoying the story.

[singsingsing]

I'm strongly against changing the vocabulary in kids' books to make them more understandable to American children. To me, that's gravely insulting to American children. I'm Canadian, and yes, our version of English is a little more similar to British English, but it's probably much closer to American. We had the British versions of the Harry Potter books, and I never had trouble figuring out what certain words meant, and it most definitely never made my reading experience less enjoyable. 

I was a total bookworm as a kid, and one of the most enjoyable, rewarding things about reading was encountering words, terms, and objects that I was unfamiliar with, and then trying to figure out what they meant from the context, or going and asking someone, or researching on my own, to discover their meanings. 

With Harry Potter specifically, they're very British books - the setting and culture are a huge part of the story - so Americanizing them is completely counter intuitive. It's also sending the message that the British vocabulary in the books is not only too difficult for American kids to 'get', but it's also not worth knowing or appreciating. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

5 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

I've lived outside of the US for most of the last decade, including Europe (so all English language tv channels were out of the UK). I have very few friends that speak American English. All employment correspondence since leaving the US has been in British English. I would have thought I was pretty well versed in he differences in vocabulary and spellings.

Yet I've never heard or seen the word satsuma outside of this thread. I hadn't the faintest idea what it was until someone else translated it. 

"Satsuma" isn't completely unknown in the US. Truman Capote used it in his short story "A Christmas Memory." Does anyone know if it's used in Alabama?

[SapphireSlytherin]

10 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

"Satsuma" isn't completely unknown in the US. Truman Capote used it in his short story "A Christmas Memory." Does anyone know if it's used in Alabama?

I know it's used in rural Arkansas, if that makes any difference? Of course, my great-great-grandmother was Liverpudlian, so there's that - and she was a strong influence on her female children especially with regard to vocabulary that was passed down through her descendants. All were lovers of words and books.

[VixenToast]

28 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I'm strongly against changing the vocabulary in kids' books to make them more understandable to American children. To me, that's gravely insulting to American children. I'm Canadian, and yes, our version of English is a little more similar to British English, but it's probably much closer to American. We had the British versions of the Harry Potter books, and I never had trouble figuring out what certain words meant, and it most definitely never made my reading experience less enjoyable. 

I was a total bookworm as a kid, and one of the most enjoyable, rewarding things about reading was encountering words, terms, and objects that I was unfamiliar with, and then trying to figure out what they meant from the context, or going and asking someone, or researching on my own, to discover their meanings. 

With Harry Potter specifically, they're very British books - the setting and culture are a huge part of the story - so Americanizing them is completely counter intuitive. It's also sending the message that the British vocabulary in the books is not only too difficult for American kids to 'get', but it's also not worth knowing or appreciating. 

My Mom got me the Canadian box set (only up to OotP at the time) because it was the British edition (yay Canada!) and I so very badly wanted to read it the way JK wrote them. At the time I was trying to dissect her words and phrases and sleuthing word combos and anagrams and acronyms. All because I wanted to predict the last two books. Lord, kids these days are so fucking lucky they don't have to wait a whole year for the next book to come out. I'm just so damn proud I acted swiftly when HBP came out. I was #7 in line AND I was in the local news (me, in line, already reading it). One of the snotty girls I went to school with boasted to me that she was number 200 something. I felt soooo good beating her with my #7.

good times, guys. But still, these new kids don't know how lucky they are!

as to satsumas, and kumquats, and other British things, if I didn't know wtf that was, I would pull out my American one and figure it out lol. Popping clogs (I think) was my fave. It's kicking the bucket lol!

[louisa05]

6 hours ago, JillyO said:

Surely the language differences were easier to bridge if we didn't "translate" everything from British to American English, though. I have full faith that Americans could eventually figure out what satsumas are even if they call them mandarins or tangerines.

I think that part of the issue is that these are books for children who may still be learning how to use context clues. So while adults may be able to figure out the differences and very well may have some prior knowledge of differences between British and American usage, children who read them would have a much harder time. 

[melon]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Unpopular opinion...I have never given a rats ass about Harry Potter and my eyes glaze over when it is the topic of discussion. Then again, fantasy is not a genre I embrace. 

Hey, I used that really weird belt contraption, posted a picture of one somewhere.on FJ.

Same here,Silver.I have watched a few of the movies.Maybe,I will try to read them,I don't care much for fantasy,either.

I also used the belt.That was what I used when I started my period at 11.

My father taught Ancient Greek and Latin,at three different colleges/universities.He loved to read,but his opinion was that we should read Classic Lit,and that some books were a waste of time,that was just his opinion.He had a huge collection of books.

[General Jinjur]

41 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

"Satsuma" isn't completely unknown in the US. Truman Capote used it in his short story "A Christmas Memory." Does anyone know if it's used in Alabama?

It's used in my part of the South. Capote is my favorite. I've got multiple editions of all his books.

When we were looking at houses a couple of years ago, my only requirement was that it have built-in book cases. I got my wish.

[karen77]

I still have a few full sets of books (HP, Outlander, etc) but mostly, just all on my nook, it's so much easier to transport a full library on a plane!! then if I'm reading, I don't have to worry about bringing another book with me, already there! ALso, my nook glowlight has been wonderful (had an older version), now I don't keep hubby up at night wiht my light on reading, just the soft glow from the nook and he doesn't notice that one so much.

 

The kids both have more books than necessary though! I recently cleaned out a few of them from my sons room (ones I hate or that he's grown out of), and at that point, I had him down to 65 or so..... it's crept back up. My daughter is worse!

[OyToTheVey]

13 hours ago, OldFadedStar said:

 

I have a full set in English and a full set in Japanese. I cant read japanese but I just had to get it. 

 

I feel so dumb now. I was in Japan, I should have gotten myself a whole set. That would have been a cool travel gift to myself lol

[Coconut Flan]

7 hours ago, subsaharanafrica said:

I guess that's a long winded way of saying I understand why they change the text, especially where one word has two very different meanings or a word that isn't used at all. It goes both ways too, as I've purchased plenty of books by American authors while in the U.K. that have had American spellings and vocabulary switched for British ones. It's not about dumbing things down. It's about making it flow in such  way that it seems natural to the reader. 

I'm guessing the bottom line is you sell more books if they are familiar and not having a foreign feel. 

[Four is Enough]

"translating British English into American English".... if a word is unfamiliar, does one not still use a dictionary? Isn' t that what they are for?

[louisa05]

32 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

"translating British English into American English".... if a word is unfamiliar, does one not still use a dictionary? Isn' t that what they are for?

When teaching reading comprehension, the dictionary is the last resort. Strong readers use context clues, connections to prior knowledge, and know when not knowing a word does not affect overall understanding of a passage. 

Reading something with a dictionary beside you disrupts the overall comprehension of a passage as you must stop and start with the actual text. 

[Four is Enough]

3 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

When teaching reading comprehension, the dictionary is the last resort. Strong readers use context clues, connections to prior knowledge, and know when not knowing a word does not affect overall understanding of a passage. 

Reading something with a dictionary beside you disrupts the overall comprehension of a passage as you must stop and start with the actual text. 

I AM a strong reader. Still, I will resort to using a dictionary when I think I have the answer but am not certain.  I was merely pointing out that when context clues, etc. fail, a dictionary can help. Sort of like when you are traveling by canoe, and you find rocks... I'd rather stop and portage around a big rock than sink in the river! Context clue that!

I'm not exactly sure why your post has pissed me off quite so much, but it sounds dismissive and insulting to me.

[Rachel333]

One instance where changing things for Americans was actually an improvement is in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide books where publishers made Douglas Adams omit the word "fuck" and he changed it to "Belgium" and added a very funny passage to explain why "Belgium" is such a dirty word. It is generally considered to be funnier than the "fuck" version and is probably one of the few times where censorship made things better. http://io9.gizmodo.com/5931788/how-american-delicacy-turned-belgium-into-a-dirty-word

[singsingsing]

How else would kids learn how to use context clues, draw from prior experience, etc., if not by confronting vocabulary they're unfamiliar with? I'm totally baffled by this argument. I can't see anything that isn't positive about kids reading books containing vocabulary and references from a culture unfamiliar to them, and I can't see any positive reason to change it so that kids from a certain culture don't get 'confused'. Kids need to be confused, that's how they learn.

[louisa05]

6 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I AM a strong reader. Still, I will resort to using a dictionary when I think I have the answer but am not certain.  I was merely pointing out that when context clues, etc. fail, a dictionary can help. Sort of like when you are traveling by canoe, and you find rocks... I'd rather stop and portage around a big rock than sink in the river! Context clue that!

I'm not exactly sure why your post has pissed me off quite so much, but it sounds dismissive and insulting to me.

I taught for ten years at a school where the feeder system was very poor at teaching reading. Most students came in at sixth grade with reading comprehension scores in the 3rd and 4th grade range. Along with knowledge from my teacher education courses, a colleague and I spent a good deal of time researching the newest methodologies for teaching reading comprehension. 

I'm sorry that research and good teaching strategies are so offensive to you. But the fact of the matter is that reading fluency is disrupted if the answer to unknown words is always and only "look it up in the dictionary". Fluency is extremely important to comprehension because successful comprehension is more than just understanding the definition of individual words. I am not trying to offend you. But some of us have actually studied how people read most effectively. That is what professional educators do. 

1 minute ago, singsingsing said:

How else would kids learn how to use context clues, draw from prior experience, etc., if not by confronting vocabulary they're unfamiliar with? I'm totally baffled by this argument. I can't see anything that isn't positive about kids reading books containing vocabulary and references from a culture unfamiliar to them, and I can't see any positive reason to change it so that kids from a certain culture don't get 'confused'. Kids need to be confused, that's how they learn.

But if they are constantly confused, then they stop reading. Think about it. Do you keep reading a book or article if the majority of the vocabulary is unknown? Most people don't (especially if reading for pleasure rather than work, assigned class reading, etc...). A book at reading level for a student is not considered to be one that is only familiar words but is also one that does not have an overwhelming number of unfamiliar words. 

It is also important to remember that Harry Potter was not sold as a text book to improve vocabulary but as books for kids to read for pleasure. When trying to promote reading for pleasure, we don't want to push kids too far beyond their comfort zone. Too much challenge is not enjoyable. There is, ideally, a balance between challenging their knowledge and vocabulary skills and meeting them where they are--so that they will keep reading. 

[trustworthy]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:26 PM, wikinggirl said:

Thank you, I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing it. It looks horrible, and Jeremy's too. 

 

I can't be hard on her on this.  Think 16 year old with first boyfriend having fun in a photo booth with goofy photos. That's about what this is.  But since she wasn't allowed to do that or any normal teenage things, it's coming out now in this way.  Think of all the things a teen does with filters on Snapchat etc. on a daily basis.  She was never allowed to do any of that and so now she's kind of going for it and having fun.  Hopefully she'll think to take a photog or art class at a local university if she really wants to pursue photog or art, but maybe she really doesn't care.  With two Sunday services, a Wednesday prayer meeting, a Friday prayer meeting, their food drive and other ministries, her time is really full as a pastor's wife I'd imagine.  

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 1:57 AM, Letizia said:

Books AND MoMA?!? Mind blown. 

 

ETA: Not only were they at MoMa the painting is by Duchamp.....I don't understand a universe where a Duggar grandchild is in front of a Duchamp.

I'm with you here ... the MoMA shot got me REALLY excited.  Abstract expressionism is the polar opposite of Duggarism --  the juxtaposition alone is causing the earth's tectonic plates to groan and shift.

[missegeno]

...
as to satsumas, and kumquats, and other British things...

I was definitely introduced to the word Satsumas in the US, long before I lived in Britain, so I didn't realize people thought it was a British term. But kumquats? What does the US supposedly call kumquats? Because that's the only term I've heard for them (and I don't think I ever actually encountered them in the UK).