Joy and Austin: Getting Married is Too Much Work!

[VBOY9977]

I saw the proposal footage that came in the promo video... I thought the idea of the blindfold proposal was cute although some people on fb found it kinda weird. I liked it: he seemed to put more effort on it that Jeremy and Derick did

 

however, I keep wanting to know what happened after he got down on one knee and she had the blind fold.. who took it off? Herself? Papa forsyth(lol)?

[VooDooChild]

I think Joy may or may not wear pants.  I also think she will tow the line like all the other Duggar spawn.  She's too young and steeped in the Kool-aid to change yet.  Austin's family's camp is close to Duggar-ville, right?  I don't hold out much hope for NoJoy.

[ihaveanexamintwodays]

40 minutes ago, VBOY9977 said:

I saw the proposal footage that came in the promo video... I thought the idea of the blindfold proposal was cute although some people on fb found it kinda weird. I liked it: he seemed to put more effort on it that Jeremy and Derick did

 

however, I keep wanting to know what happened after he got down on one knee and she had the blind fold.. who took it off? Herself? Papa forsyth(lol)?

I think so far Joy's proposal is my second favorite. Ben, for all his immaturity, did a really good job being romantic and sweet but still adventurous for Jessa. the picnic proposal thing for Joy seems to suit her well. 

i'm sure the blindfold thing was like, "do you trust me? i have something special i found and want to show you, but it's a surprise, can i blindfold you?" so that way he can lead her the particular spot and get down on one knee and then be like "okay here it is, you can take of the blind and look now", and ta-dah proposal. lol. 

[eleanora3]

Just now, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

I think so far Joy's proposal is my second favorite. Ben, for all his immaturity, did a really good job being romantic and sweet but still adventurous for Jessa. the picnic proposal thing for Joy seems to suit her well. 

i'm sure the blindfold thing was like, "do you trust me? i have something special i found and want to show you, but it's a surprise, can i blindfold you?" so that way he can lead her the particular spot and get down on one knee and then be like "okay here it is, you can take of the blind and look now", and ta-dah proposal. lol. 

I think people have very different "tastes" in proposals. Most people love Ben's but I would have hated that kind of thing myself. A low-key proposal like Jill's or Jinger's would be my preference. But I do think each proposal so far has worked for the girl's personality, so props to all four guys.

[marmalade]

13 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

BS indeed. I wonder which designer she'll rip off for Joy's dress?

Admittedly, the Chinese factory did a pretty good job with Jinger's dress. But designed - no.

Same "designer" for Joy's dress. She moved her shop to KY because that's where her fiancee lives. 

[Dubiousclaire]

I just hope he buys her proper shoes for camping and working in a camp, like hiking boots, cowboy boots, or at the very least, gym shoes. Flip flops aren't even good for kayaking, if you get dumped out of the boat or have to  walk in the creek/river/pond. 

(Remembering when the Duggars went to survival camp in skirts and flip flops. The instructors were not pleased.)

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

9 minutes ago, eleanora3 said:

I think people have very different "tastes" in proposals. Most people love Ben's but I would have hated that kind of thing myself. A low-key proposal like Jill's or Jinger's would be my preference. But I do think each proposal so far has worked for the girl's personality, so props to all four guys.

Jessa & Jinger both had most of their family there for their proposals Jill only had Joy and 1 other little girl and it looks like Joy only had Hannie and Jenny, maybe JD was there helping to set up the picnic. I would NOT want my parents hanging around when I got engaged, but I'm not overly fond of my parents, they have never been the loving supportive type, always the more authoritative don't bug me type people. 

[Jug Band Baby]

4 hours ago, PVMom said:

I agree Jane M.   This is the first Duggar girl getting married that doesn't actually creep me out!    Even being 19!

I'm not creeped out, but am sad.  If Joy wasn't in the family she's in, if she was in a NORMAL family (the Duggars aren't normal), she and Austin would probably date a few year, have some fun, maybe still end up married in a few years, maybe realize what they want out of life is too different, etc.  They might also have gotten to spend the last few years dating instead of having to conceal crushes since crushes without official courtship is a no-no.  So yeah, they've known each other, probably pretty well in some regards, but have had to hide so much so that they retain approval of their families.  They didn't get to act out on their teen crushes, and are being thrust right into adulthood and marriage now.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I had a crush on a man for a couple years who it turned out was crushing on me.  When it finally got into the open, the nature of our friendship changed.  A lot.  Because we could finally be open.  We're married now, but we also had years in the adult world, and didn't admit our crushes because, ah, we were with other people for part of the time.  When we were able to admit it, we still took a few years to get to know each other in a different way.

Joy and Austin admit their crushes, and they're being rushed down the aisle.

A downside to Joy being so very young is she's not going to have it in her yet to buck her parents' way of raising her.  She's not going to have had a chance to come into her own yet and discover what she wants for herself.  Her sisters were young too, but Joy's just 19.  She's still a kid in a lot more ways than her sisters.  Hitting an 18th birthday doesn't make an adult overnight.  By the time she'd have a chance to figure herself out, it won't matter.  She'll have a pack of kids and be stuck.

So it's not creepy, but it is sad.  

[Jug Band Baby]

On 5/8/2017 at 10:42 AM, lawlifelgbt said:

That's not the same as someone being mean and saying "eat a cheeseburger" or having to have your clothes tailored. My wife is fat and literally cannot find clothes that will cover her and she can afford and will last. No tailor will help that.

Being outright shamed and humiliated for being thin is okay then?  Because members here had talked about being shamed.  One member talked about getting in trouble at work because someone accused her of being a bad role model for being thin.  We've got members here shamed for wanting to go to the gym because other people don't feel comfortable working out near them.  You really fucking think that that's not harassment and shame?

Not every thin person can afford tailoring, and dressing frumpy to interviews doesn't help a thin person.  No, not every thin person can find stuff that fits.  I only can because I can spend a fucking $120 on jeans.  The jeans that cost less are too short, which means that they DO NOT fit.  

I've been on both sides, and it sucks more being thin.  I'm a mom of a little girl who is growing more scared to eat because society's telling her she has to be skinny, or else she can be "real" by being fat.   There are no "you're beautiful as you are" movements for thin children, just "you better not gain weight, but if you do, then be proud of who you are!"

Guess what, Buttercup.  Society's really not nice to most thin people either.  Telling someone to eat a goddamned cheeseburger is still shaming.  YOU have this fucked up idea that being thin means that shame hurts less.  Society is kindest to people who look like Victoria's Secret models, with the "right" bust/waist/hips proportions in custom-made clothing.  But most thin people aren't like that.  Callista Flockhart's been pointed out for being so thin, and had accusations of eating disorders thrown at her.  Even Emma Watson, skinny as she is, is worried that her own waist will make girls feel bad.  She can't embrace her own body because that would be BAD.  You can embrace your own fat ass, but you're a bad person if you embrace your skinny ass.

The double standards are awful, and you need to get it out of your head that it's okay to look down on thin people.  Your opening statement is akin to "I don't mean to sound racist, but..."  Yes.  Yes you are racist.  "I won't mean to sound like a body-shamer..."  That's what you're doing.  Stop it.

[JermajestyDuggar]

On 5/8/2017 at 1:41 PM, Jug Band Baby said:

Being outright shamed and humiliated for being thin is okay then?  Because members here had talked about being shamed.  One member talked about getting in trouble at work because someone accused her of being a bad role model for being thin.  We've got members here shamed for wanting to go to the gym because other people don't feel comfortable working out near them.  You really fucking think that that's not harassment and shame?

(snip)

The double standards are awful, and you need to get it out of your head that it's okay to look down on thin people.  Your opening statement is akin to "I don't mean to sound racist, but..."  Yes.  Yes you are racist.  "I won't mean to sound like a body-shamer..."  That's what you're doing.  Stop it.

I've been on both sides of the spectrum as well. And I felt worse when fat shamed. They are both horrible but they are NOT the same. 

[lawlifelgbt]

On 5/8/2017 at 1:41 PM, Jug Band Baby said:

Being outright shamed and humiliated for being thin is okay then?  Because members here had talked about being shamed.  One member talked about getting in trouble at work because someone accused her of being a bad role model for being thin.  We've got members here shamed for wanting to go to the gym because other people don't feel comfortable working out near them.  You really fucking think that that's not harassment and shame?

(snip)

The double standards are awful, and you need to get it out of your head that it's okay to look down on thin people.  Your opening statement is akin to "I don't mean to sound racist, but..."  Yes.  Yes you are racist.  "I won't mean to sound like a body-shamer..."  That's what you're doing.  Stop it.

I don't see it that way; both things are problems, but one is structural, the other has to do more with individual actions. It's like with race; minorities can be mean or discriminate or a person who is white in a minority-majority area can have problems. And that's not okay!

But, that problem isn't structural; there's not as much or as bad working subconsciously or built in to systems like work, policing, etc. for generations, against a white person. Someone white in a minority neighborhood will have difficulty, sure, but the assumptions about their work ethic and other considerations based on subconscious racism won't happen if they look for work with nonminorities, the cops won't automatically regard them with more suspicion, and they're less likely to face police violence regardless of their living mostly around minorities. Does that make sense?

 

My intention isn't to shame, just point out that while both kinds of body shaming are bad, only one is pervasive, ongoing for generations, and subconsciously structured into society.

[singsingsing]

I really don't think it's helpful to compare bias against overweight individuals to racism. The two issues are not comparable, and I'm somewhat disturbed by this conflation. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I really don't think it's helpful to compare bias against overweight individuals to racism. The two issues are not comparable, and I'm somewhat disturbed by this conflation. 

As a fat girl I agree, I don't fear for my life walking down the street, sure I may get mocked or hollered at but that is hardly the same as being hung from a tree in my front yard while a bunch of chickenshit assholes in whitehoods set a cross on fire. 

[Jug Band Baby]

21 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I've been on both sides of the spectrum as well. And I felt worse when fat shamed. They are both horrible but they are NOT the same. 

Fuck the idea that the words being different means that one side shouldn't feel as bad.  Me cutting off my entire arm doesn't make your pain less if you cut off a finger.  A person's feelings don't hurt less just because their clothing tag size is a smaller number.  It's incredibly CRUEL to even hint at the idea that the smaller the number, the smaller the hurt when shamed.  In fact, that idea shows how pervasive the belief is that it's okay to shame smaller people.  You and lgbtwife are actually trying to justify shaming smaller people.  Your inability to see the problem is proving how ingrained THIS problem actually is.  NO ONE AT ALL is saying that shaming fat people is a lesser offense  than shaming smaller people that shouldn't hurt as much, yet we do have some people here who see shaming smaller people as a lesser offense that shouldn't hurt as much.  

You want to know a way it's not the same?

It's actually openly accepted to call thin women not real women, to say men don't want nasty sacks of bones, and to tell thin women to eat some food, or to tell thin women, OPENLY, to stay out of gyms because our bodies make people uncomfortable, and the people who say that shit are praised for speaking up.  People who want to say that stuff to fat women better do so quietly or else a lot of people will be calling them out for being sizist bigots.  It's okay to defend fat women and to shame people who bully fat women, but shaaaaaaame on those who try to defend thin women, and empowering praise to those who tell thing women to eat sandwiches.  IT IS FUCKING OKAY TO HATE OPENLY VERY OPENLY BULLY THIN WOMEN, but it still bad to openly say ANYTHING against a fat woman.  It sucks that fat women SOMETIMES don't get hired by assholes, but it sucks how much it's accepted and even praise to BULLY thin women and comment on our bodies.

If you can not bolster one side without trying to belittle the other or demeaning their emotions, then you're fucked up, and I'm saying that directly.  If you can not build up fat women without tearing down smaller women, then you've got issues.  Only bullies think it's okay to tear down a group of people to make another feel better, and the shame should be on the bullies.  Either start trying to build up ALL women, or shut your mouth.

15 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I really don't think it's helpful to compare bias against overweight individuals to racism. The two issues are not comparable, and I'm somewhat disturbed by this conflation. 

Agreed.  You can't change your skin color, no matter how much Rachel Dolezal wishes she could.  You body size can change.   Police also aren't more likely to shoot you for being fat.

[Four is Enough]

I think the clothing problem is that the industry is trying to shoehorn women into definite shapes, and dang few of them, when there are clearly women of all sizes, shapes, and heights, to just make life difficult for all: designers, clothing makers, sellers, and wearers.

Sewing my own clothing has been a major improvement in my life, starting in my teens when I was a tall thin woman and there were no lengths for clothing other than "average". Knowing how to sew and alter garments kept me from showing too much in the miniskirt age; and it kept me from having "high water" pants in the bell bottom age, and it kept my boobs looking good in the "everyone else is flat chested but I have to put these things inside something " age...

I know sewing isn't for everyone, but tailoring definitely IS. I don't think anybody buys off the rack and has something, anything, fit perfectly.

[Jinder Roles]

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

I really don't think it's helpful to compare bias against overweight individuals to racism. The two issues are not comparable, and I'm somewhat disturbed by this conflation. 

As a person who is on the receiving end of racism, I don't think the comparison is that much of a conflation. 

@lawlifelgbt is correct. Fat-phobia is a systemic problem black up by institutions that exclude fat people from the same privileges smaller people have (unlike thin-shaming, though by no means is that acceptable). Heavy people are taken less seriously in work environments and by doctors. Their constantly shamed online and in real life. And assumed to be unhealthy with bad hygiene and not much self control. They also have to deal with many things not being available to them (accessibility to clothes, airplane seats etc.)  Often times they are seen as undesirable. 

The dehumanization and bias against fat people is very real. People do not talk about being slim in the same way they talk about being fat. 

One should also remember that many people who are overweight come from disenfranchised communities/communities of colour and do not have access to healthy food or proper health care. Nor can they afford it, more often than not. This is an intersection people often forget. 

I think sometimes people get upset when it's pointed out that fat-shaming and skinny-shaming don't work the same because they assume than slim and large individuals are on an even playing field. They're not. 

Some articles for reference: 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kitty-stryker/fatphobia-a-guide-for-the_b_5214754.html

https://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/weight-stigma-101/

https://yrwelcome.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/breaking-down-fatphobia/

[MadeItOut]

22 hours ago, Jug Band Baby said:

At some point, an adult has to be held responsible for their own choices.  If Josh molested their daughter and she stayed, would you blame brainwashing and excuse her?  I hope not.

She made the choice to stay.  She had an out that a lot of women would love to have.  Even if her brother couldn't support her until the end of time, she would qualify for social assistance programs, and unlike most women, if she were to have posted a GoFundMe for help with housing, she'd probably have gotten enough to buy a house in Arkansas.  If she chose to shun those things, that is still her choice, and she's responsible for those.  Women escape far worse situations with less help than offered to her.  So my sympathy ends when someone has a way to leave, but doesn't.  I don't pity her for her situation that she freely chose to stay in.

Once I got out and got myself together, I trained as a peer counsellor.

In general, there is a period of 'rehearsal' in getting out. This may or may not include formulating and thinking through a plan/s, squirreling money/belongings/resources, sometimes conversations with certain trusted people. The average is around 37 rehearsals before a successful departure - and even then, especially if there's an additional complication such as a skewed doctrinal perspective, that can cause a late-ditch return.

My path out now, from some 10+ years out, I look at it and it's embarrassing, but at the time it oddly made sense in my kool aid soaked and survival + injured mind. I do make the effort to talk about it now though as it's the not talking openly about these things when you can that in part makes it possible for the problem to remain.

I still haven't totally given up hope for her yet. My instinct is that possibly, those unconfirmed stories that she was supposedly keen to speak with a lawyer could potentially have been either a rehearsal or an earnest attempt that was outed.

I just hope that if she is in either phase, the parts she can't control don't end up causing lasting, unfixable damage.

[JesusCampSongs]

13 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

One should also remember that many people who are overweight come from disenfranchised communities/communities of colour and do not have access to healthy food or proper health care. Nor can they afford it, more often than not. This is an intersection people often forget. 

Agreed! An example from my family and community: people with Native American ancestry are way more likely to be obese and develop type 2 diabetes than white people. This is the end result of several factors, which include (but probably are not limited to):  metabolic incompatibility between their ancestral diet and the typical American diet, lack of access to nutritious food due to poverty, and epigenetic changes resultant from generational trauma (including death marches and famines caused by the US government). 

[VelociRapture]

@MadeItOutInstead of feeling embarrassed you should be proud. It takes a lot of courage and strength to leave behind what you know for an uncertain future, even if what you know is abusive. 

And I think it's fantastic you trained to be a peer mentor. Your experiences and knowledge could  just be the reassuring influence someone needs to make the choice to leave for good.

As for the ongoing debate over weight and shaming and everything... I don't care what you weigh. I just want people to not be fucking assholes. 

[MadeItOut]

Thank you. That means a lot.

Full disclosure as it seems the right thing: I got away from my patriarchist first husband only to fall into an equally bad, though different situation with a second husband. I only got away from him for good when he gave me permanent brain damage AND upset my Dad in his last days at the hospice.

It's one of the weird things nobody warns you about, that no matter how much you get to know that a lot of it was beyond your control, the occasional flashes of 'what the hell was I thinking' never totally go away  and somehow come to a point where there just is no more understanding.

The bit I claim as mine, is that all these years on and having lived together for eight years, Mr Mio and me are getting married this summer.

[Cheetah]

Ack, I really put my foot in it, sorry.  I did not intend to make it sound like ONLY larger women are 'real women'  (the intent was to say that quite a lot of women are left out of the mass-market standard clothing sizing.  I was looking at it from the lens of being too big but I agree that it also goes for too small, too short, too tall, and not proportioned in a standard way).  

I'm sorry for my clumsy wording.

[Carm_88]

I don't know who clothing companies make clothes for to be honest. Mannequins? 

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, MadeItOut said:

Thank you. That means a lot.

Full disclosure as it seems the right thing: I got away from my patriarchist first husband only to fall into an equally bad, though different situation with a second husband. I only got away from him for good when he gave me permanent brain damage AND upset my Dad in his last days at the hospice.

It's one of the weird things nobody warns you about, that no matter how much you get to know that a lot of it was beyond your control, the occasional flashes of 'what the hell was I thinking' never totally go away  and somehow come to a point where there just is no more understanding.

The bit I claim as mine, is that all these years on and having lived together for eight years, Mr Mio and me are getting married this summer.

Aw! Congratulations! I hope you guys have a beautiful wedding day!

And I'm really sorry about your experience leaving one abusive situation only to end up in another. That must have been an absolute nightmare. But I think going through that likely made you a stronger and more compassionate person. You'll be able to draw on that experience in your mentor work and I do think it could be very positive for the person you're helping. It could be very reassuring for them to hear that others have been through similar situations and made it through ok.

[Gillyweed]

2 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I don't know who clothing companies make clothes for to be honest. Mannequins? 

Haha not even for them. Many stores clip the clothes on mannequins in places you can't see, so it appears to fit just right. 

[zee_four]

On 5/7/2017 at 10:55 PM, Jug Band Baby said:

This is why my thicker friends can spend $20 at Old Navy, but I have to spend $120 elsewhere.  There's a presumption that, no matter the size, someone's going to be thicker in the waist compared to hips, so there's no waist.  And if you're a smaller number size, you must be short.  I can only find smaller-waist-to-hips jeans with a long enough inseam at a single specific store, and that store usually only carries 1 pair on each size under 12.  I had to drive a total of 3 hours last week when I needed a new pair.  Because of the cost, I kept mending a hole I wore in my now-old pair.  I feel like shit spending $120 on a single pair of jeans when I've got friends struggling to buy Old Navy.  I'm embarrassed.

Yep. I also have to explain to men women's sizes don't get longer they just get wider. In high school I wore a 0/1 now I'm about a 3 but I have almost a 40" inseam. So many male bosses just order me bigger sizes of uniforms (everything from ski schools jacket and pants to a blazer and suit pants at a fancy hotel). Then everything is just too big and too short and I feel even more self conscious.