Captain Bret Alan Smith Pt. 3: Fundie Cat Fights, Ahoy

[Palimpsest]

Yes, I think all the S'mortons were of legal age when they had their covenant weddings.  If not the parents could be done for child abuse.  Actually, it is possible (with parental consent) to marry very young (15) in quite a few states.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States

The Covenant Marriage Only idea is pushed by some Fundies (like the Pearls) and Sovereign Citizen types.  They don't want the evil government (which allows same sex couples to marry, FFS!) to interfere with "the sanctity of Christian marriage."  

These couples often sneak off later and get legally married quietly though.

Covenant Marriage is legal in 3 states.  And it does make it harder to divorce.  http://www.alternet.org/belief/covenant-marriages-how-some-christian-couples-make-it-lot-harder-divorce-each-other

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, JMO said:

@JermajestyDuggar I suspect they needed a legal marriage for some other reason.  Katie was in her early 20's at the time of her wedding.  All of the other kids have been over 18.  Tayte and Martha actually waited until he wait 18 to get engaged.  I think it goes back to their dominionism.  Only God is an authority over this, not the government.   They don't need the government to tell them that they are married when only a covenant before God can do that. 

I see. But don't color me shocked if one day a 17 year old girl is "married" in that family.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

If I remember my Pearl nuttiness correctly, all of the children have Covenant marriages -- performed by Michael Pearl -- and none of them have "legal" marriages -- i.e. licenses from the state.

Wasn't Kressant Smith married at 17?

[Palimpsest]

Yep.  Michael Pearl says they just file a notarized covenant in the courthouse.  Here's his long-winded treatise on the subject.   http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/holy-matrimony/

I too think Kressant was only 17.  Of legal age.

[Red Hair, Black Dress]

Does just filing a notarized covenant at the courthouse make the marriage legal?  TN doesn't recognize covenant marriages and the majority of states don't recognize common law marriages -- holding yourself out as married without the legal paperwork.

All of this must get pretty confused when people try to inherit or do anything else that requires a legal marriage.  Do these fundies have Social security numbers or birth certificates for the children?  Do they even pay taxes?

[fundiefan]

According to the Smith's blog, Kressant turned 20 in July of 2007. So, she got married at 19.

Wesley & Rachel did the crazy Smith betrothal ceremony crap when she was only 17. But they didn't get married until a couple months after she turned 18.

[Letgo]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 8:06 AM, JMO said:

Holy carp I can't believe Brett left that video much less responded to comments.  What a sick sick man. I knew he had to believe Alan is innocent but I had a shred of hope.   This is going to destroy his relationship with his grandkids and children.  Divorce your vile husband Katie and never contact the disgusting Smiths again. 

I doubt very much that Katie will get a divorce. They believe in marriage for life, no matter what. Not even an acknowledged  Biblical reason can be reason enough for them.  Look at Anna Duggar.  She's staying with Josh and I'd bet that at some point she will talk about how God has restored their marriage and it is more wonderful than anything she could have imagined. Much better than before. Of course, Josh was never actually convicted of molesting his sisters or others, and Alan has a better chance of that happening, which should mean he'd be on a sex offender list. Still, I think Katie will stay legally married. to Alan, even if he isn't living with her and the children.

As for Alan...what happens to him if he is convicted? Prison time, but he'd be paroled after a few years, wouldn't he? As a convicted sex offender, where could he go? Not back to his wife and children. Not to his parents' home, as they also have under age children. 

I think this whole thing is going to get pretty ugly if it goes to trial. Families will be up against each other. I feel for the married Smith daughters, especially those who are now Mortons. There will soon be a great deal of animosity among all of them. It's coming. I think they are trying, to some degree, to "keep sweet" and not get too nasty-keep it all "Christian" of their variety. But it won't stay that way if people have to start testifying. The best hope is that Alan will plead guilty to at least some of the charges. Even then his parents aren't going to believe it, though.

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 9:28 AM, fundiefan said:

Reality is several layers below their chosen beliefs.

If Alan is guilty, then what they did to raise him and coddle him and the worship of his penis and picking his mindless wife, were not the perfect, god approved, right things to do. And if those weren't the perfect most right and godly things to do, what does that say about their other choices? 

In the videos I watched both sets of parents went on about how wonderful their SIL or DIL was. Katie couldn't have a better husband. He's so sweet to her. Alan adores Katie. He works so hard to provide for her. Katie is the perfect wife. She cares so much about pleasing Alan.  She's such a good mother.  She works so  hard, she's always cheerful, so encouraging. Etc. Etc. Etc.

I kept wondering what both sets of parents think now. And for the Smiths, I'd think that this division means losing contact with their grandchildren-I certainly wouldn't be allowing Jackie and Bret to see my kids if I were Katie.

[JesusCampSongs]

19 minutes ago, Letgo said:

As for Alan...what happens to him if he is convicted? Prison time, but he'd be paroled after a few years, wouldn't he? As a convicted sex offender, where could he go? Not back to his wife and children. Not to his parents' home, as they also have under age children. 

That depends on so many things, mainly what all the state charges him with and whether or not he takes a plea deal (assuming the state offers him one). Time served and post-release conditions vary a lot.

I'm a therapist, and I specialize in treating adolescents who have been sexually abused. I'm thinking about some of the families I have worked with in this situation. One guy raped three of his kids over a period of 5-7ish years. He pleaded guilty and got 40some years. Another one raped the older daughter and molested the younger one. He also pleaded guilty and got 20. Another case I had involved a 15 year old getting raped by a family friend in his late twenties. I think he wound up getting 10 years after the plea deal. There are others; those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head (a lot of times, I don't start seeing these kids until long after the trial is over, so details are fuzzy). I can't think of anyone who has pursued a jury trial; they have all taken plea deals.

From what the DAs have told me, they lean on these guys pretty hard to plea bargain and threaten them with life sentences (rape is not a capital crime in my state) if they decide to go to trial. Though, as I've said before, I don't know why someone would be all that antsy to get out of prison if they have to register as a sex offender when they're out. Being on the sex offender registry makes it extremely difficult to find work or housing, you're also ineligible for many forms of public aid, and you are often required to complete "offender rehabilitation" through a mental health agency which is not only really expensive, it's invasive and probably quite unpleasant (plus they can send you back to prison if you screw up). I'm just saying, prison for life is probably a better deal than trying to make it on the outside. 

Anyway, if Alan gets convicted and if he ever gets released, he'll probably have some pretty intense parole requirements because (the charges indicate that) he sexually abused children he's related to. People who do that are typically barred from being around any children, including ones they're related to, in addition to all the other requirements that apply to all sex offenders. So I'm not sure where Alan will go, as his enabling parents probably won't be allowed to house him as long as there are minor children in the home/compound/vicinity. It'd be interesting to see how they handle that, but we'll have to wait a while to see it if he's convicted. 

(Note: Not all sex offenders are barred from being around all children forever. That depends on the specifics of the crimes they committed and is usually decided on a case-by-case basis by the parole board.)

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, Red Hair, Black Dress said:

Does just filing a notarized covenant at the courthouse make the marriage legal?  TN doesn't recognize covenant marriages and the majority of states don't recognize common law marriages -- holding yourself out as married without the legal paperwork.

No. Unless you are in Arkansas, Arizona or Louisiana.  Sneaky Pearl stuff.

Quote

All of this must get pretty confused when people try to inherit or do anything else that requires a legal marriage.  

Yes.  That is why some of them get legally married later.  See Kressant.

Quote

Do these fundies have Social security numbers or birth certificates for the children?  Do they even pay taxes?

Not always.  See Alicia Faith Pennington and Identity abuse: https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/tag/identity-abuse/

[anjulibai]

I don't know, I could see Katie getting legally divorced, but still consider herself spiritually married. 

I also think this is going to be different that the situation with Josh. Anna's parents weren't supporting her to leave. And they had an "excuse" of the molestations happening when Josh was a "curious teenage boy". I don't think Alan has that "excuse" here. From the reactions, it seems like it's very cut and dried that Alan was an adult preying on a small child. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, anjulibai said:

I don't know, I could see Katie getting legally divorced, but still consider herself spiritually married. 

I also think this is going to be different that the situation with Josh. Anna's parents weren't supporting her to leave. And they had an "excuse" of the molestations happening when Josh was a "curious teenage boy". I don't think Alan has that "excuse" here. From the reactions, it seems like it's very cut and dried that Alan was an adult preying on a small child. 

I agree it's a little different. Alan could do a long time in prison. So long the kids could be grown and her childbearing years could be gone as well. The family will have to support her and 8 kids if she doesn't divorce and remarry. I honestly can't guess one way or the other. But I wouldn't be surprised if they stayed married and I wouldn't be surprised if they divorced. 

[fundiefan]

It's a lot different than Josh. For one, someone actually reported Alan to authorities so it's not swept under the rug or downplayed. Josh didn't rape any of the girls and that is one of the charges against Alan. Josh was a teenager and while that does't mean he was merely a curious boy, it is different than an adult raping a child. The charges against Alan seem to be to the fullest extent with enough evidence to hold him. Josh...had the family done the right thing, would have had more therapy and counseling than prison. The goal would have been solving his issues whereas the goal with a grown man is punishment. Josh's family failed him by not getting him help. Alan's parents would clearly do the same thing if so one else hadn't taken control but fortunately, someone outside the Smith bubble did the right thing.

[JMO]

6 hours ago, fundiefan said:

According to the Smith's blog, Kressant turned 20 in July of 2007. So, she got married at 19.

Wesley & Rachel did the crazy Smith betrothal ceremony crap when she was only 17. But they didn't get married until a couple months after she turned 18.

I believe Michael and Kressant got married in Sept.  Katie and Alan were married that same year in April.  (And I can't believe I know this.) 

[Bethella]

6 hours ago, JesusCampSongs said:

Anyway, if Alan gets convicted and if he ever gets released, he'll probably have some pretty intense parole requirements because (the charges indicate that) he sexually abused children he's related to. People who do that are typically barred from being around any children, including ones they're related to, in addition to all the other requirements that apply to all sex offenders. So I'm not sure where Alan will go, as his enabling parents probably won't be allowed to house him as long as there are minor children in the home/compound/vicinity. It'd be interesting to see how they handle that, but we'll have to wait a while to see it if he's convicted. 

(Note: Not all sex offenders are barred from being around all children forever. That depends on the specifics of the crimes they committed and is usually decided on a case-by-case basis by the parole board.)

The youngest of the adopted Smith children is approximately 11 years old, so he could potentially go live with his parents in 7 years (assuming he's convicted and is barred from being around children).

[ophelia]

17 hours ago, JMO said:

@ophelia They got legally married about 18 months after their religious ceremony.  It's in a previous thread but someone dug up the record.  

A thank you! So there might get divorced legally.

11 hours ago, JMO said:

@JermajestyDuggar I suspect they needed a legal marriage for some other reason.  Katie was in her early 20's at the time of her wedding.  All of the other kids have been over 18.  Tayte and Martha actually waited until he was 18 to get engaged.  I think it goes back to their dominionism.  Only God is an authority over this, not the government.   They don't need the government to tell them that they are married when only a covenant before God can do that. 

.. AAAAAND the gubimint allowed the ebil gays to marry and so nothing is holy anymore.

11 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I see. But don't color me shocked if one day a 17 year old girl is "married" in that family.

Or a boy. Or an even younger child. I can totally see them marrying off children that are 16 and starting them courting with 15. The earlier they start with the sweet baby making business the more soldiers for god they'll produce.

[Lurky]

Re covenant marriages and divorce - the interesting thing, per that link @Palimpsest posted, grounds for divorce in the legal covenant marriages in Arizona and Alabama (as Jill Duggar has):

Quote

 

• Adultery
• Commitment of a felony or sentence of death or imprisonment
• Abandonment of matrimonial domicile for a year and refusal to return
• Physical or sexual abuse
• Separation for two years
• Separation for one year from date of execution of separation agreement

With these conditions added in Louisiana:
 

Quote

 

• The spouse against whom the divorce case is filed has regularly abused drugs or alcohol
• The spouses both agree to a divorce

 

So I'm wondering if, if convicted, Brett Alan Smith committing a crime like rape would be seen as him breaking the covenant first, so no blame attached to Katie if she divorced.  At least I'd hope so.

 

 

[DaisyD]

Isn't adultery a valid biblical reason for divorce? Technically, that's what he did (in the worst imaginable way).

[EmiGirl]

30 minutes ago, daisyd681 said:

Isn't adultery a valid biblical reason for divorce? Technically, that's what he did (in the worst imaginable way).

It is for a man to divorce his wofe. There are no circumstances for a woman to divorce her husband. And even if he dicored her, if she remarried she would be committing adultry.

[ophelia]

1 hour ago, EmiGirl said:

It is for a man to divorce his wofe. There are no circumstances for a woman to divorce her husband. And even if he dicored her, if she remarried she would be committing adultry.

sounds fair. as always.

Whenever I check Jacqueline Smiths facebook I kind of wait for the obligatory "it's all Katies fault since she didn't care about my sons sexual needs" - post. I  can totally see Jackie or the Captain putting it that way.

[picklepizzas]

Bret posted something about bringing cookies to baldwin state prison. I wonder if that's where alan is being kept. 

[Grimalkin]

    

1 hour ago, picklepizzas said:

Bret posted something about bringing cookies to baldwin state prison. I wonder if that's where alan is being kept. 

    I doubt they would be able to do a ministry together if he is.

       More cookies for Jesus! I wonder how many men found Jesus through baked goods.

[withaj]

1 hour ago, ophelia said:

sounds fair. as always.

Whenever I check Jacqueline Smiths facebook I kind of wait for the obligatory "it's all Katies fault since she didn't care about my sons sexual needs" - post. I  can totally see Jackie or the Captain putting it that way.

That's a hard argument to make with 8 kids as proof  Not that I'd put anything past those two. 

[ophelia]

13 hours ago, withaj said:

That's a hard argument to make with 8 kids as proof  Not that I'd put anything past those two. 

Of course it is. But their believe is that a woman should ALWAYS be available to her husband. And of course - Jackie and the Captain never seize to amaze.. at least not in a negative way.

[Carm_88]

This story is such a mess. I get that as a family they are not going to want to believe the worst. But denial is not just a river in Egypt. Get your heads out of your asses, stop being assholes, and support your daughter-in-law and grandchildren. They are truly the victims in al of this. 

[DaisyD]

On some level, I just hope that it wasn't Katie that reported it. If it was, good for her, but that's going to make things even more difficult for her with the parents in-law.