Bates Family Part 16 - Babystep Bates

[accountingstar]

I just watched Thursday's episode and Callie is my favorite Bates. During the Q&A on the sofa, she is asked why doesn't the family finish projects and her response is "Because we don't like to work". So young and so truthful. 

[OrchidBlossom]

I have a question, and I don't mean it in a snarky way. People keep saying Alyssa said she is limiting the size of her family or is controlling births. Is that actually true? I watched the episode but did so while I was studying so maybe I missed it, but all I saw was her saying that she "wasn't in any rush" to have another kid and they were "enjoying their time" with Allie. But all the fundies I have seen have said they are "enjoying time with" their newborn kid, and even if they are leaving it up to god, that means they AREN'T in a rush, because to rush would be to go against God's timing. I'm just saying the statements I heard could be made by someone who was not using any form of birth control. And the fact that the family predicted she would have fewer children? I mean if they believe God personally chooses blessings for each family and never gives more than someone can handle that could easily be them believing God will not overload her with 19 kids because it isn't in her heart to care for that many or something. And as a poster above mentioned you can choose not to practice any form of birth control and end up with one or no kids, or only a few. Fertility is very complicated and can be affected by genetics, upbringing, personal health, even environmental factors. The fact that she isn't pregnant isn't necessarily indicative of birth control.

I really don't mean to be a downer. If she has said she is using a form of family planning, I would be very happy for her. But that is a very different impression than what I got from the episode. I got it to be toeing the party line but also *looking* so normal because "haha we love kids but we aren't in a rush or anything!"

It also doesn't necessarily make her less fundie, just less quiverful. And either way as other posters have pointed out, she is still promoting and profiting from IBLP.

[TuringMachine]

1 hour ago, accountingstar said:

I just watched Thursday's episode and Callie is my favorite Bates. During the Q&A on the sofa, she is asked why doesn't the family finish projects and her response is "Because we don't like to work". So young and so truthful. 

Totally agree. Pretty sure that was the most honest thing ever said on this show.

[FloraDoraDolly]

3 hours ago, OrchidBlossom said:

I have a question, and I don't mean it in a snarky way. People keep saying Alyssa said she is limiting the size of her family or is controlling births. Is that actually true? I watched the episode but did so while I was studying so maybe I missed it, but all I saw was her saying that she "wasn't in any rush" to have another kid and they were "enjoying their time" with Allie. But all the fundies I have seen have said they are "enjoying time with" their newborn kid, and even if they are leaving it up to god, that means they AREN'T in a rush, because to rush would be to go against God's timing. I'm just saying the statements I heard could be made by someone who was not using any form of birth control. And the fact that the family predicted she would have fewer children? I mean if they believe God personally chooses blessings for each family and never gives more than someone can handle that could easily be them believing God will not overload her with 19 kids because it isn't in her heart to care for that many or something. And as a poster above mentioned you can choose not to practice any form of birth control and end up with one or no kids, or only a few. Fertility is very complicated and can be affected by genetics, upbringing, personal health, even environmental factors. The fact that she isn't pregnant isn't necessarily indicative of birth control.

I really don't mean to be a downer. If she has said she is using a form of family planning, I would be very happy for her. But that is a very different impression than what I got from the episode. I got it to be toeing the party line but also *looking* so normal because "haha we love kids but we aren't in a rush or anything!"

It also doesn't necessarily make her less fundie, just less quiverful. And either way as other posters have pointed out, she is still promoting and profiting from IBLP.

IMO, being less quiverful (or non-quiverful) does make Alyssa less fundie. The cornerstone of this entire belief system is to crank out as many babies as quickly as possible. Anyone who isn't doing that is taking a giant step away from this cult's teachings. It's almost blasphemy for Alyssa to say she's in no hurry to have more kids and that she wants to enjoy the one she has-- especially when that one child is female.

[elliha]

Alyssa is saying that they are not in a hurry which means that she is saying that this is a decision made by her and John and not something left to god alone. She could have said, "We leave it up to god but we are really enjoying every minute with Allie" or "God's timing is always perfect but we are not pregnant right now" and been vague the same way but she didn't. She has also previously given numbers to how many kids she wants to have.

[Exjw2015deed]

13 hours ago, calimojo said:

 

I almost envision the Bates and BUB Producers watching all of the 19K and counting and Counting On shows like Coaches would watch NFL Game day videos to plan their strategy for the next shows.  If the Duggars do something,  The Bates are doing it, but somehow managing to make it look more homey, natural and less creepy.    The creepiness does come through sometimes, like when Gil was disciplining the little one when they were at the beach, or from season 1, when he drew that weird Gothard Approved drawing, but they are very skilled at looking normal; looking like a big happy family that we would just love to hang out with. 

I just find this all interesting.  In my mind, the Bates Family is going out of their way to show that they are not the Duggars.  And,  I just wonder if the Duggars can see that.  Given that JB and M were the ones who brought the Bates Family into the public eye by featuring them pretty heavily on their show a few seasons back,  it must sting a bit, if JB is smart enough to see it.

No need to envision, the producers didn't need to examine the duggars since they have the same production company. Sound man Jim I believe even worked during Michaels wedding.

Bill Hayes is the president of figure 8 films and executive producer. You can thank yours truly for blessing us with the duggars, gosselins (Jon & Kate plus 8, brownseses (sister wives) and bringing up bates. 

I believe whole heartedly they had full knowledge the Duggar scandal was coming. I'm sure the whispers got back to them. They saw the popularity from Jill and jessas weddings and knew all the bates family's babies and weddings would finally keep up with the duggars. I'm sure they've done a lot of research, read free jinger to figure out what exactly bugged everyone about the duggars.

Every comparison you brilliantly listed was the core of all the Duggar criticisms. When the Duggar and bates first came into the scene, they treated them like freaks and often mocked them. The crew snarked, edits with funny music, and asking questions that they knew the answers would sound bonkers. Slowly they started taking them more seriously and so the the bates as well.

I sound like a conspiracy theorist but it really isn't that obtuse of a theory. 

 

http://www.figure8films.tv/site/shows/

*Here is the source. Basically everything on tlc and uptv.

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, accountingstar said:

I just watched Thursday's episode and Callie is my favorite Bates. During the Q&A on the sofa, she is asked why doesn't the family finish projects and her response is "Because we don't like to work". So young and so truthful. 

At least, Bates older kids seem hard working and no grifters. I suppose growing up in poverty made them aware of the importance of having a job. But middle/little kids? I'm sure they're barely homeschooled, they don't see mom/dad working, plus they live confortable, so they can easily grow up as lazy young people.

I can be wrong, but I have a very bad vibe with megafamilies little kids. The lack of education, the lack of routines, being raised by siblings, with lazy parents, living in front of cameras, etc. I'm sure some of them will break free, but most of them can have very hard lives and make bad decisions.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Knowing what I know about fertility, I would bet good money that Alyssa is not "letting god decide."

Allie has slept through the night from one week old. That means if she is Breastfeeding, she is not doing it at night. She's also using bottles. So that right there can contribute to her period coming back early. Also 85% of women will become pregnant after 1 year of unprotected sex. Allie is 15 months old now? Also Alyssa got pregnant very quickly after marriage so it's safe to say she's fairly fertile. And then there's what she said about not being in a rush to have children anytime soon and even her parents saying she will not have many kids. It just seems blaringly obvious she is not "letting God decide."

[actuallyjessica]

Knowing what I know about fertility, I would bet good money that Alyssa is not "letting god decide."

Allie has slept through the night from one week old. That means if she is Breastfeeding, she is not doing it at night. She's also using bottles. So that right there can contribute to her period coming back early. Also 85% of women will become pregnant after 1 year of unprotected sex. Allie is 15 months old now? Also Alyssa got pregnant very quickly after marriage so it's safe to say she's fairly fertile. And then there's what she said about not being in a rush to have children anytime soon and even her parents saying she will not have many kids. It just seems blaringly obvious she is not "letting God decide."

I'm leaning towards this too, though we can never be sure if someone is or isn't taking precautions unless they outright come out and say so. However, most people don't feel the need to discuss their sex life in such detail so I doubt very much we will ever hear her say "I'm on birth control". I've never made such public statement, how about you guys? Am I to be assumed I am or am not on birth control? I've been married for 2 years and have no children.

Only time will tell us how many kids they go on to have, and even then that may not be through choosing to limit, there's also a factor of secondary infertility - even if it seems highly unlikely. My point is, no one can ever be sure... But that won't stop people from raising the bar higher.

[JermajestyDuggar]

13 minutes ago, actuallyjessica said:

I'm leaning towards this too, though we can never be sure if someone is or isn't taking precautions unless they outright come out and say so. However, most people don't feel the need to discuss their sex life in such detail so I doubt very much we will ever hear her say "I'm on birth control". I've never made such public statement, how about you guys? Am I to be assumed I am or am not on birth control? I've been married for 2 years and have no children.

Only time will tell us how many kids they go on to have, and even then that may not be through choosing to limit, there's also a factor of secondary infertility - even if it seems highly unlikely. My point is, no one can ever be sure... But that won't stop people from raising the bar higher.

These quiverfull fundies talk way too much about not using birth control that I find it funny that they suddenly clam up when it seems they may be preventing pregnancy.

[manda b]

One of my pet peeves is when people say a child "looks autistic". There is no look. My oldest is an Aspie.

[imokit]

While I would not be at all surprised that Alyssa is using birth control, may I play devils advocate here.  Israel Dillard is 11 days older than Allie and like Allie's mum, Israel's mum has not announced a pregnancy.  I'm aware that Jill has done more breast feeding than Alyssa, and that can affect things, but Israel's eating food now and Jill got pregnant super fast.  I'm also aware that there's a lot of speculation that she may be pregnant and simply be waiting to announce, But I don't feel that we can safely say Alyssa is preventing a pregnancy for while yet.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

If we really must speculate on other people's sexual activity, and draw any kind of parallel between said activity and fundiedom levels, I am in the camp of "If they're still not pregnant 3 years from now, maybe". 

[JermajestyDuggar]

10 minutes ago, imokit said:

While I would not be at all surprised that Alyssa is using birth control, may I play devils advocate here.  Israel Dillard is 11 days older than Allie and like Allie's mum, Israel's mum has not announced a pregnancy.  I'm aware that Jill has done more breast feeding than Alyssa, and that can affect things, but Israel's eating food now and Jill got pregnant super fast.  I'm also aware that there's a lot of speculation that she may be pregnant and simply be waiting to announce, But I don't feel that we can safely say Alyssa is preventing a pregnancy for while yet.

There are a few differences though. Jill is probably only breastfeeding. Living in CA probably makes it harder to deal with bottles and all that so she probably exclusively breast feeds. Second, she hasn't made statements like Alyssa. And Jill has said she wants to let God decide how many childrens he has. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if Jill gets pregnant soon. of course I hope she doesn't because of Zika. But I bet her period has returned by now or will soon.

[Slt]

I'm pretty sure Alyssa uses formula. Nothing wrong with that. But that would make her fertility return faster than a breastfeeding mother typically. Alyssa absolutely doesn't want babies as quickly. She is totally using some sort of birth control- whether it be natural family planning or the pill or something else. Her statements and her lifestyle suggest that her line of thinking is way different than her siblings and than the Duggars.

[OrchidBlossom]

14 hours ago, FloraDoraDolly said:

IMO, being less quiverful (or non-quiverful) does make Alyssa less fundie. The cornerstone of this entire belief system is to crank out as many babies as quickly as possible. Anyone who isn't doing that is taking a giant step away from this cult's teachings. It's almost blasphemy for Alyssa to say she's in no hurry to have more kids and that she wants to enjoy the one she has-- especially when that one child is female.

The entire belief system of quiverful is to have as many babies as possible. That is NOT the entire cornerstone of fundamentalist beliefs. The two are often taken together, but they aren't the same thing. Quiverful is one of several fundamentalist doctrines/camps/ideologies (whatever you want to call it) which puts an emphasis on raising up an army for the lord. It isn't even the only fundamentalist movement which pushes this idea. Fundamentalism is much more nuanced and takes many more forms and has much more to do with biblical legalism, social conservativism, and intolerance than it does to do with how many children a couple has.

ETA: Whether or not Alyssa is moving away from IBLP/ATI/quiverful is a very different conversation than whether she is moving away from fundamentalism generally. Personally, I see no to very little evidence of EITHER, but making the case that her statements may imply she is controlling her birth may (I don't agree, but may) support the premise she is moving away from quiverful or from the cult the rest of her family is in. It does not mean she is any less generally a fundamentalist.

[elliha]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

While I would not be at all surprised that Alyssa is using birth control, may I play devils advocate here.  Israel Dillard is 11 days older than Allie and like Allie's mum, Israel's mum has not announced a pregnancy.  I'm aware that Jill has done more breast feeding than Alyssa, and that can affect things, but Israel's eating food now and Jill got pregnant super fast.  I'm also aware that there's a lot of speculation that she may be pregnant and simply be waiting to announce, But I don't feel that we can safely say Alyssa is preventing a pregnancy for while yet.

I am not ruling out Jill using birth control either. Some women are able to stay infertile through breastfeeding for long periods of time, the average if you let the child nurse freely is around 14 months but younger women like Jill do tend to have periods return earlier than older women. For a woman in her late thirties it is not uncommon to stay without a period as long as the child nurses even if it is just once a day. It is possible Jill is completely "natural" but she might also be doing some birth control. I am going to guess if that is so that it is NFP. She is a midwife, she would know how the female body works in this respect.

[JesusCampSongs]

1 hour ago, imokit said:

While I would not be at all surprised that Alyssa is using birth control, may I play devils advocate here.  Israel Dillard is 11 days older than Allie and like Allie's mum, Israel's mum has not announced a pregnancy.  I'm aware that Jill has done more breast feeding than Alyssa, and that can affect things, but Israel's eating food now and Jill got pregnant super fast.  I'm also aware that there's a lot of speculation that she may be pregnant and simply be waiting to announce, But I don't feel that we can safely say Alyssa is preventing a pregnancy for while yet.

Fair enough, but I wouldn't necessarily make comparisons between Jill (or Jessa) and anyone else. They both had complicated, traumatic deliveries, which are known for causing problems with subsequent pregnancies. Secondary infertility could be an issue, or they may be using birth control on recommendation from their doctors (unlikely, but I think we've established the Duggars believe that rules are for other people, not them). 

As far as I know, none of that was the case with Alyssa. 

[TuringMachine]

To be perfectly honest though, I'm not convinced either Jill or Alyssa would really know how to prevent pregnancy effectively even if they wanted to.

[Exjw2015deed]

Didn't Michelle get pregnant with Josie while breast feeding Jordyn? I didn't know breastfeeding caused infertility. Duggars fertility is not normal.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the type of birth experience Jill had, that it is reccomended to wait a time before getting pregnant. Maybe the birth traumatized her and she listened. Who knows...

Im with @Shouldabeenacowboy, we should definitely wait to speculate after 3 years. 

[Kira]

1. Just because Alyssa got  pregnant quickly after marriage doesn't mean she's super fertile.

2. We've posted study after study that say women who don't use any forms of birth control will have 6-8 kids

3. Michelle and Kelly didn't leave it up to God. They planned their pregnancies. 

4. The majority of the women FJ follows don't have babies every year. How many fundie women have 19 kids? How many have 8?

[19 cats and counting]

On 6/26/2016 at 6:34 PM, calimojo said:

 

Jim Bob's ego probably doesn't let himself see it, but the fact is,  the Bates are intentionally avoiding doing anything to resemble looking like the Duggars.  As to their friendship, I think most of it was orchestrated by the powers within IBLP/ATI.  I think once the Duggars were popular, their sponsoring Cult quickly wanted to bring another big family into the public eye to prove it was possible and best to live that life.  I think some of the kids grew to be real friends, but I never had the impression that JB and Gil were super tight.  Friendly yes,  they had all kinds of fellowshipping and encouragement flowing, but truly good friends?  I am just not personally convinced. 

 

There's a throwback Thursday pic somewhere online of vintage Duggars and Bates kids. The baby Bates in that pic is either Alyssa or Tori so they definitely go back until at least then.

I get the vibe that the Bates and Duggar parents are more like frenemies.  Some of the kids have developed genuine friendships (JD was in Zach's wedding party, Jana in Michael's, Carlin and Joy are BFF, and I can but haven't yet seen friendships between the younger kids but they line up in age) but the parents are staged.

And I think there was jealousy issues with the other every time Michelle or Kelly announced a pregnancy.

Remember both families were intitially portrayed as freak shows.  

[Palimpsest]

16 hours ago, elliha said:

Alyssa is saying that they are not in a hurry which means that she is saying that this is a decision made by her and John and not something left to god alone. 

Wishful thinking.  That is what Fundies always say when they aren't actually pregnant.  

Now can someone link to actual proof that Alyssa has said she is on birth control  ... that would be kicking IBLP and Gothardism in the teeth and proof positive that they are leaving the cult.

It would be great is John and Alyssa are both having headaches at her most fertile times because they don't want a mega family - but that is far from leaving Fundamentalism.

 

4 hours ago, Slt said:

I'm pretty sure Alyssa uses formula. Nothing wrong with that. But that would make her fertility return faster than a breastfeeding mother typically. Alyssa absolutely doesn't want babies as quickly. She is totally using some sort of birth control- whether it be natural family planning or the pill or something else. Her statements and her lifestyle suggest that her line of thinking is way different than her siblings and than the Duggars.

And you know this how?  

[HereticHick]

I'm so glad that someone on this thread compared Bates leghumper Becky M to Kathy Bates in
"Misery." I've often thought that. From what I've gathered from her comments, Becky M is a lonely woman, probably middle aged (as am I), who lives 10 hours from the Bates (thank Gods) and has never met them. She obsessively stalks on social media anyone in the Bates family orbit. I envision her having a wall plastered with Bates photos.

I can't imagine what she would do if she met a Bates in person. Cry?  Grab the newest Bates baby and try to run away with it?

I once worked at an event with a well known author who has several stalkers.  Security gave me pics of some of them (Pics that the stalkers had sent to him) to study beforehand. One of them showed up at the event. I will never forget the look on her face--it still gives me the shivers.  [Luckily, security intercepted her before she got too close]

[princessmahina]

3 hours ago, Exjw2015deed said:

Didn't Michelle get pregnant with Josie while breast feeding Jordyn? I didn't know breastfeeding caused infertility. Duggars fertility is not normal.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the type of birth experience Jill had, that it is reccomended to wait a time before getting pregnant. Maybe the birth traumatized her and she listened. Who knows...

Im with @Shouldabeenacowboy, we should definitely wait to speculate after 3 years. 

Lactational amenorrhea. In some women, breastfeeding (exclusively, I think, but it may be different for some women) can postpone the return of the menses. Zsucifer promotes it heavily on her blog as a way to naturally space children.