Bates Family Part 16 - Babystep Bates

[RosyDaisy]

I mentioned this in the Nathan and Ashley thread. What if the conflict is about money and a separate contract? Just a thought.

[elliha]

I think we can safely say that Alyssa has made a different choice than her parents when it comes to kids which I think is great for her and her now kid and future kids. I very much doubt she will only have one but I guess 3-4 that are spaced out a bit. Even if she stays completely fundie she will at least have time to see her kids as individuals and give them more materially and emotionally.

As to what birth control she uses I think some kind of NFP is most likely or that she uses a hormonal protection that leaves no "traces" like an implant or an IUD. 

[imokit]

How well are Alyssa and John able to support a large family?  They're doing well financially at the moment with one, but his regular job isn't enough which is why they also have a cleaning business.  Can this support a bunch of children as well.  Alyssa's done the poverty thing, she likes wearing normal/nice clothes and dressing up her baby.  She's not going to want to have more children than can be financially sustained, even aside from the fact that she doesn't like the chaos from a large family.

[crazysnark]

11 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I think we can reasonably believe that Alyssa supports Taliban Dan's platform.  After all, she has volunteered for his campaign, stumped for it, met her now husband while working for it, appeared on it as a married woman, and appears to support it to the hilt.

When she officially renounces it - why then we can assume that she isn't fully on board on Taliban Dan's agenda - with bells on.

Some of you lot are really just grasping at straws about Alyssa.  I do have to wonder why.

You also have to remember she was a child when she worked for Dan Webster and probably only did so because she was interested in his son. At 16 I campaigned for Mike Huckabee in Iowa I actually met the Duggars there. I can't say a 16 year old campaigning is an indication of their future self, it has more to do with the parents. 

 

Also I don't think we are grasping at straws about Alyssa leaving fundieville, I think others are trying to keep her locked in the fundie box even after she has said and done many things that are not fundie. We can agree to digree tho. I am very proud of Alyssa and she gives me a lot of hope that she is/will fully escape and encourage other siblings to do the same! 

[formergothardite]

10 hours ago, Casserole said:

And then I go back to the beginning of feeling bad for judging them but being so angry that they continue to support such volatile things and encourage others into it. 

It does typically take a while to really get out, but at the same time Alyssa has so many more opportunities than most people who leave the cult and yet she is still advertising for IBLP and helping hurt victims from the cult. Most of my sympathies are for all the people who aren't believed because the Bates family, including Alyssa are doing their best to make that dangerous lifestyle look harmless. 

Do I have sympathy for her over how hard it would be to stand up to her parents? Yes. But she is making money by hurting the victims of Gothard and her father. So it is hard for me to feel too sorry for her. She has it so much better than the majority of the victims of IBLP. 

Good she isn't going to have a ton of kids, but I rather expect almost none of the Bates/Duggar children are. My guess 4-6 will be about average for all of them. People raised in ATI are just not having large families, even the ones who stay fundie. 

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

You also have to remember she was a child when she worked for Dan Webster and probably only did so because she was interested in his son. At 16 I campaigned for Mike Huckabee in Iowa I actually met the Duggars there. I can't say a 16 year old campaigning is an indication of their future self, it has more to do with the parents. 

 

Also I don't think we are grasping at straws about Alyssa leaving fundieville, I think others are trying to keep her locked in the fundie box even after she has said and done many things that are not fundie. We can agree to digree tho. I am very proud of Alyssa and she gives me a lot of hope that she is/will fully escape and encourage other siblings to do the same! 

The fact is, as another person said, you can not be Quiverful and still be just as Fundie as many of these families are.

It is wonderful that they've decided to limit their family size. I hope they follow through on that if it continues to be the right decision for them because it can only benefit them and, most importantly, their children in the long run. But that doesn't mean that they:

- Don't take the Bible literally.

- Suddenly believe in equal rights for all regardless of religion, sexual orientation, or gender orientation.

- Now believe that women are equal to men in general and in marriage.

- Believe wives should be anything  other than a submissive helpmeet (which can take many forms.)

- No longer allow their images, or their daughter's, to be used to promote IBLP or her family's show.

- No longer support politicians with extreme and dangerous beliefs. Alyssa may have grown quieter about this over the years, however John voted for Ted Cruz in the Primary and they both asked people to vote for his father when he ran for Speaker of the House (it remains to be seen whether they understood that this was an informal poll or if they thought it was a legitimate vote that would decide; I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they did realize it was an informal show of support.)

I'm not sure what you mean by saying the many things she has said and done that indicate she is leaving Fundie World behind. @formergotharditehas lived this life and has made it clear the rules aren't as cut and dry as many of us believed - shorter hair is ok; pants for women are ok; not having eleventy thousand kids is ok (you see that with John's own family - he's one of only six kids.) The strict rules followed by Alyssa's parents and the Duggars aren't the law of the land for all of them - just look at the Salyers, who allow a modest, but more relaxed, fashion standard than other IBLP families. Or Anna Duggar who has had shorter hair similar in length to Alyssa's current cut in the past.

None of this is to say that I'm not pleased that they are making decisions right for them and their family. Anytime a second generationer makes a decision right for them (regardless of what their parents would choose) it's a good thing - even if it means they aren't necessarily moving away from that lifestyle. I will continue to hope that they (and all second generationers) take real steps away from this toxic lifestyle - but I honestly don't see it really happening yet. 

[HermioneSparrow]

16 hours ago, princessmahina said:

When I eventually have children (hopefully in the next 3-5 years), I want to have a Harry Potter themed nursery. I don't care what gender my first, second, etc are, I kind of just want an excuse to paint Hogwarts on the wall.

Adopt me.

[Italiangirl]

11 minutes ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Adopt me.

Me too! I'm promise to be a good girl xd 

[is.it.real]

On 24 juni 2016 at 7:45 PM, 19 cats and counting said:

As far as dressing babies-- I think a lot of people see little girls as grown up playing with dolls thing.  Go to the infant clothes section of any given store and you will notice very few gender neutral (not pink or blue) items and almost none over size 3 months (I guess by then you know what it is).  Most of the little girls stuff there is frilly, pink, sparkly, etc.  Even adult tomboys (ie my sister) dress baby girls very feminine.

I think this discussion is very important. Kids should have 1000 opportunities, not two. Two stores around here that do that good are Villervalla and Polarn och Pyret. The clothes are colorful, made for games and fun, and are not gender stereotypical. As an example, how do one gender a bright pink shirt with tractors on it? I love these kinds of children's clothing!

Villervalla

Polarn och Pyret

 

[Casserole]

My niece actually loves dresses. She also FREAKING LOVES dinosaurs. So shoutout to Boden Kids for making girl's clothes with dinosaurs, because her only other choices were t-shirts with terrifying looking T-rexes on them. 

 

[Dr. Fundie Stalker]

17 hours ago, Casserole said:

Every time this conversation comes up, I struggle with an internal conflict of when to judge the "adults" who were brainwashed and raised in the cult. Part of me is sympathetic; While their beliefs are toxic, brainwashing is real, stockholm syndrome is real, the fear of questioning everything they've ever known (and the consequences they're told will happen if they do) is very, very real. It could take a decade or longer to really unravel the chaos in their minds and one million baby steps before the outside world sees any change. Yes, some kids RUN, but I feel like most don't. It's got to be terrifying to leave. 

The other part of me is like "I'll make judgement when they're married." But then, their parents choose kids just as brainwashed and fearful so now two people have to work through the damage done and it could take even longer. So then I'm like "okay, yes it could take long, but I'm making judgement when they have kids because they're now bringing up other humans into this horrible, viscous cycle." And then I go back to the beginning of feeling bad for judging them but being so angry that they continue to support such volatile things and encourage others into it. 

/leghumping because you know who I never worry about passing judgement on? The pieces of shit parents that CHOSE this life and inflicted it on their children; the children they were supposed to nurture, love, and protect from the evils of the world and instead they became the evil in the world. 

 

Sorry I'm rant-y today. Anyone else have this internal conflict or am I becoming overly invested in these crazy people and becoming a crazy person myself? lol

I thought about this quite a bit. I have a unique perspective not from being raised in a Fundamentalist environment but behaviour religiously perpetuated can be just as damaging. I was able to get a PHD but pertaining to the world I had been completely brainwashed. I couldn't function due to what had been instilled in me. It has taken years of therapy, 6 month intensive treatment centre, etc............ to get to a point where it is not just knowing something is or is not right but believing it. It is years of bargaining and guilt and confusion.

I look a Alyssa and I see someone so intrenched. The Webster's are a Political Family, meaning they play politics. I feel that it is naive to think she will ever reach a point where her beliefs really change. She is gaining worldliness without gaining the factual knowledge to go along with it. I see a lot of myself at 20 in her and that isn't a good thing. She is a hard worker busy helping all time but I don't see her as a fighter to escape something comfortable. The big difference I wasn't comfortable. We shall see. I foresee John Perhaps entering to political area and if this happens it will be very telling. They do look like the perfect Christian American Family.  I think they may be grooming her......       

[Fundie Bunny]

5 minutes ago, Casserole said:

My niece actually loves dresses. She also FREAKING LOVES dinosaurs. So shoutout to Boden Kids for making girl's clothes with dinosaurs, because her only other choices were t-shirts with terrifying looking T-rexes on them. 

 

Do they make that one on adult size? 

[Dr. Fundie Stalker]

6 hours ago, formergothardite said:

...Good she isn't going to have a ton of kids, but I rather expect almost none of the Bates/Duggar children are. My guess 4-6 will be about average for all of them. People raised in ATI are just not having large families, even the ones who stay fundie. 

Maybe a decrease in the ATI birth-rate is evidence of the evolutionary advancement we need. 

[calimojo]

Ok,  no Worries, I am not suddenly a big supported of the Bates Family, but after catching up on this season,  I have to give them credit for how they are subtly giving the Duggars a great big F*** You.

 

For me this entire seasons plays out like look how much we are NOT like the Duggars.  There has been an emphasis on the older kids following their 'dreams'.  Numerous episodes showing the "real" jobs that they adult kids have, ( Zach seems to be a real police officer, vs. JD as the "constable". The most recent episode showing how Alyssa works cleaning businesses after hours a long side of her husband, The older boys helping with the Tree business, and from last Season,  Erin making her CD). They showed Gil in pain and having to be helped by a woman (Dr at the walk in clinic). 

 

Here is some of what I mean:

• Zach,  Showing the rigors of his Police training and seems to have an actual job as a county Sheriff's Deputy VS.  John David eating donuts in his car in his meaningless "Constable" job
• Erin, and her piano.  She is not exactly a "concert pianist", but closer than what JB and M claimed poor Jana to be
• Lawson,  Doing volunteer work at the Children's hospital. ( and while it isn't like he is in a destitute area working to solve world hunger, it still seemed more sincere that Jill/Derick's weird situation)
• A realistic fort built mostly by the Bates older kids, Gil and a bit of outside help.  Realistic discussion on how they are not organized and don't often finish things, VS that monstrosity that we all know the Duggars didn't really build on their own.  Now the Bateses' fort doesn't look exactly the safest, but it does honestly look like a fort that Kids would build and love to play in.
• Emphasis on the real jobs that some of the adult Bates kids have: Alyssa shown working along side her husband in their cleaning business, Zach, and Nathan/Trayce working the Tree business when Gil was laid up VS. The Duggar kids doing.................??
• Possible hint to family planning:  Alyssa talking frankly about not being pregnant and being content with her little family.  Even Kelly and Gil acknowledging that she will probably not have the same size family as theirs. 
• Hint that the Bates allow a form of "dating" often called the getting to know each other phase. Nathan spending time traveling to see Ashley before a formal courtship announced,
• A struggling Bates Courtship between Nathan and Ashley, vs. The Duggar courtships
• Even some self- reflection evidenced by Tori gaining insight into how obnoxious she was towards her siblings girlfriends and boyfriends in the past and how she regrets it now that she is courting
• Kids are able to gently tease their parents at times or even outwardly disagree with them, vs the robotic ways in which the Duggar kids interact with JB and M. 
• The open showing of mild disagreements between the kids at times, for example when the girls were repainting their room. 

 

I am not claiming that any of this takes away from the fact that Gil and Kelly are crazy cult followers who want to push their ridiculous beliefs on to others,  but what I am saying is that Gil and Kelly are pretty damn smart.  They are clearly aware of how ridiculous the Duggars make themselves look.  And, I think between them and their producers,  they are verging on making fun of the duggars.  I have to wonder if this is causing a rift between Kelly/Gil and JB/Michelle?  Or, as I suspect are JB and Michelle just to dim to even realize they are practically being mocked by their friends? 

 

I almost envision the Bates and BUB Producers watching all of the 19K and counting and Counting On shows like Coaches would watch NFL Game day videos to plan their strategy for the next shows.  If the Duggars do something,  The Bates are doing it, but somehow managing to make it look more homey, natural and less creepy.    The creepiness does come through sometimes, like when Gil was disciplining the little one when they were at the beach, or from season 1, when he drew that weird Gothard Approved drawing, but they are very skilled at looking normal; looking like a big happy family that we would just love to hang out with. 

I just find this all interesting.  In my mind, the Bates Family is going out of their way to show that they are not the Duggars.  And,  I just wonder if the Duggars can see that.  Given that JB and M were the ones who brought the Bates Family into the public eye by featuring them pretty heavily on their show a few seasons back,  it must sting a bit, if JB is smart enough to see it.

 

And not to be unfair,  I have to give props to JB for somehow finding a way to continue to get their family on TV.  They have soooo outlived their sell by date, but he always manages to find toehold for one more season.  JB is probably smarter about earning grifting big money than Gil is.  I think Gil is a good grifter but more like day to day, rather than big money to invest and continue to earn a living for him even without the show.  If the Bates show was cancelled,  I think they would be back to hurting for cash, where I think JB has enough income flow to last a fairly long time without the show's income. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arix]

We've been over this. They're trying to sell themselves as a nice, normal family who just happen to have a fuck-tonne of kids. It doesn't make them better people, lipstick on a pig only makes it prettier.

[calimojo]

Arix,  that wasn't my point.  My point is that I really think they are flat out mocking the Duggars.   To me, it is more than just selling themselves as normal people with lots of kids.  To me, they are making it a point to show how unlike the Duggars they are.  And,  the last episode was pretty brazen about it.  The Fort, showing Alyssa working side by side with her Hubby, Talking about liking just having one kid for now, showing organized sports, Erin telling her mom outright that he decorating style was out of date, etc. 

 

They do not want to be painted by the same brush as Jim Bob and Michelle.  This is more than just having a different slant on their show from the Duggars, this is them flat out portraying a contrast to the duggars. 

 

The Duggars initial strategy with the early specials and seasons was to set themselves apart from the world.  To portray themselves as having found the right way to live to guarantee well behaved children, Debt-free living and everlasting life via Jesus.  All they can talk about is Jesus, Babies, Courtship.  Even when they try to show the kids 'being spontaneous, that is still all they can talk about. 

 

The Bates took after the Duggars with their first series, which failed because it was redundant.  They retreated, watched the Duggars, read up on public opinion of them, and then made sure that their new show would be the "Anti-Duggars" in everything except of course the Cult they both follow.  But even then,  They dialed back the non-stop religious talk, and went out of their way to show that "We are just like you, only there are more of us".  Instead of trying to show how they are better and more righteous,  they are winning followers who can easily seem themselves fitting in with the family.  

 

And as we have said,  this is why I think they are just as if not more dangerous than the Duggars.  Their natural effervescence is more seductive than the robotic and stiff demeanor of most of the Duggar kids. 

[is.it.real]

As I live outside the us I don't have up. And I can't use iTunes as it blocks it's content (but I wouldn't want to pay $2.99 for one episode anyways). To the point, my usual ways to watch BUB has failed me. There are no episodes from season 4 anywhere to be found (to be fair this lack of access to the less than legal sources began with the specials in the end of season 3). Well well. 

Does anyone have any clues, tips or guidance?

[Coconut Flan]

Only the discussion of fully  legal sources is allowed on FJ. 

[formergothardite]

The theme for the Bates does seem to be "We are not creepy, fundamental Christians, pay no attention to the cult and abuse hidden behind the curtain." 

I agree that Alyssa seems fully entrenched in the fundie lifestyle. She is getting to wear her pants, limit her children, get on television to help pretend her fundie family is harmless and still advertise for IBLP. She is in a pretty comfy spot and there probably isn't a lot of anything to inspire her to really start questioning. 

[Kira]

I don't think the Bates are mocking the Duggars. I think they have learned from their mistakes. That's it. I doubt the Duggars are mad. There is a ton of normal stuff they could put on their show, but for some reason they choose not to.   The Bates  showed Chad and Erin at a speaking engagement. Jessa and Ben do the same thing, including going on a tour with the "Southern Women's Show". The Duggars haven't piut that on their show. It will be interesting to see if the second season of "Counting On" is different.

Also the Duggars have done some of the things you mentioned:

In the episode where Jill announces her pregnancy,Jimbob said he doesn't expect any of his kids to have 19 kids. 

The Duggars have played sports on the show, mainly football.

John David and Josh have been shown working(or "working"). Jill was working on her midwife license. I don't know why they don't mention JDs pilot work(getting his license etc.), but they've shown him working at a construction site and he worked for a house that he rents out.

Jana told JB she thought his style was outdated when they redecorated the girls room. 

I think the Bates like the Duggars more than we're willing to admit.The spend the holidays together, their kids are close friends etc. There could even be a Bates/Duggar courtship. Lawson is in Arkansas today. 

 

 

[AnnaRuk09]

35 minutes ago, Kira said:

I think the Bates like the Duggars more than we're willing to admit.The spend the holidays together, their kids are close friends etc. There could even be a Bates/Duggar courtship. Lawson is in Arkansas today. 

I think Joy and Lawson would be perfect for each other. And can see their personalities going together and they are both musical people - Joy has a nice voice. Also, if you notice in that holiday video where Joy, Jason, and Lawson are singing together, you can see Joy constantly stare at Lawson. 

[RoseWilder]

I hope Alyssa stops being a Fundie altogether at some point. But even if she doesn't, I still think her children will be better off than she was. Limiting her family size will mean her children will never have to go hungry (or eat rice three meals a day), they won't be crammed 6 to a bedroom and have to make a weekly appointment to talk to their parents, and the older kids won't have to sacrifice their childhoods so they can raise the younger kids. That alone should make an enormous difference in the quality of those children's lives even if nothing else about their lives/beliefs change. 

It's not as much as I hope for. But it's a good start, especially when you consider that Alyssa is only 21-years-old. She's already rejected her parents clothing standards, she's married a man who has not just one job but two and she has a job, and now she wants to limit the size of her family. Those are huge steps forward for someone who has only been on her own for 2 years. 

I think the Bates (and Duggar) parents messed their kids up in ways that go beyond just raising them fundie. I mean let's just look at the list: 

1. They raised them fundie - and that's a clusterfuck of dysfunction for their kids to unravel 

2. They taught them to grift

3. They exploiting them on TV and allowed the kids to get addicted to the fame and attention (and some of the offspring definitely seem addicted) 

4. They taught them that it's okay to have more kids than you can raise/afford/pay attention to

5. They gave them a subpar education (the Duggars education seems to be even worse - but neither family is giving their child a chance to accomplish as much as they could have) 

6. They raised them to believe that Moms shouldn't work outside of the home

7, They raised them with extremely strict clothing standards

8. They treated their offspring like slaves while the parents did very little. 

And let's not even get into the additional crap that went on with the Duggars in relation to Josh. 

Those kids have a ton of damage to unravel, beyond just the Fundie damage. So I'm going to celebrate any sign I see that they are unraveling some of the damage, whether the damage they unravel is related to being raised Fundie or if it's related to the other ways their parents messed them up. 

[calimojo]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

John David and Josh have been shown working(or "working"). Jill was working on her midwife license. I don't know why they don't mention JDs pilot work(getting his license etc.), but they've shown him working at a construction site and he worked for a house that he rents out.

Jana told JB she thought his style was outdated when they redecorated the girls room. 

I think the Bates like the Duggars more than we're willing to admit.The spend the holidays together, their kids are close friends etc. There could even be a Bates/Duggar courtship. Lawson is in Arkansas today. 

 

 

The show featuring John David working was a joke.  He isn't a real cop,  and as far as him using big construction equipment, he was just playing in the dirt.  He wasn't really on a Job site.  I get the feeling that JD does work, but for some reason they don't show what he really does.   

 

It feels to me like the Bates are consciously portraying themselves very different to the Duggars.  And, while I think the Bates and Duggar kids are close, I am not convinced that JB and Gil are all that close.  Michelle doesn't seem to have the emotional capacity to be close to anyone other that JB, but she probably does consider Kelly a friend.  The Bates also feature their grandparents quite a bit and seem to enjoy showing that they have different lifestyles from them. 

 

Maybe I am not expressing myself well.  I don't want to give the impression that I think the Bates are better than the Duggars.  I think both are pretty fu*ked up and have despicable beliefs.  I just am giving some credit to Gil and Kelly for being savvy enough to recognize that much of the the Duggar's appeal is because of the freak show factor and Gil and Kelly tried that once and it didn't work out.  So, now they are consciously presenting themselves differently.  They are most definitely wolves in sheep's clothing because they are pretty damn good at looking harmless.  Except for the extreme leg humper fans of the Duggars, most people started watching them because they were odd.  The people that I know who watched the Duggars in the beginning didn't want to be like them, but just had an interest in how they make ends meet, feed the family, etc.  And after watching the mess that was Jon and Kate,  this group of happy appearing kids, walking like ducklings in matching frumpers and Khaki pants behind the mullet to end all mullets and the helmet head to end all helmet heads had that weird odd appeal.  Nobody thought too much beyond that at first until they became a regular series and the dysfunction was impossible to hide.  

 

 

Jim Bob's ego probably doesn't let himself see it, but the fact is,  the Bates are intentionally avoiding doing anything to resemble looking like the Duggars.  As to their friendship, I think most of it was orchestrated by the powers within IBLP/ATI.  I think once the Duggars were popular, their sponsoring Cult quickly wanted to bring another big family into the public eye to prove it was possible and best to live that life.  I think some of the kids grew to be real friends, but I never had the impression that JB and Gil were super tight.  Friendly yes,  they had all kinds of fellowshipping and encouragement flowing, but truly good friends?  I am just not personally convinced. 

 

 

 

[Casserole]

4 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

Do they make that one on adult size? 

I wish. They also have dinosaur sweaters that I pre-purchased for her fall wardrobe. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I definitely think JD works. I just think he has a lot of different things going on. Tow truck, his rental house, practicing flying, and I have a feeling JB makes him still do plenty of crap at home. I get the feeling JD is the type that likes to keep busy so I doubt he will be a mega grifter.