Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[Palimpsest]

13 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Message received madam.

I'll continue pouring oil, but only if you agree to spark fires when needed. 

Did you mean that - or are we getting our metaphors mixed?

 

[VelociRapture]

6 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Did you mean that - or are we getting our metaphors mixed?

 

I was thinking along these lines:

You know, the standard mayhem and destruction. Fire is twice as effective when combined with oil. I should know - I'm a Certified Internet Fire Expert. 

[Palimpsest]

23 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

I was thinking along these lines:

You know, the standard mayhem and destruction. Fire is twice as effective when combined with oil. I should know - I'm a Certified Internet Fire Expert. 

Perfect!  And I will never get any work done today at this rate.  

[nelliebelle1197]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:47 PM, HermioneSparrow said:

THANK YOU!!!!!

It's annoying the whole "z person is moving away from fundamentalism but x person is not" and viceversa. I can't see any real sign of them changing their beliefs. Same people, different package. Let's not compare unless one of them really changes, it doesn't have to be a scape a la Jeub or Pennington, there's plenty of people leaving fundamentalism to be regular christians without making a fuss but Jessa the supposed strong willed duggar is doing what her headship says to a T and Alyssa the pants wearer closed her insta account listing criticism of the "lifestyle she choose" as one of the reasons. Please, we need to be realistic! We all want them to leave the cult but that's not happening yet.

 I don't think anyone is saying a Duggar is moving away from fundamentalism. NO ONE. And all the Alyssa worshippers on here claim is Alyssa is moving away.

The point both FG and I keep trying to make is that Alyssa is not moving one inch away from IBLP specifically. No Bates is moving away from that. But the Duggar girls are in fact marrying outside IBLP/IFB and making some shifts. They are just shifting away to a different brand of fundie. The theological shift from IFB to Calvinism is basically moving from Bill Gothard is a Molester to Doug Phillips is a ToolRapist.

I think we are saying similar things in different manners.

 

4 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

I'm not a Bates leghumper. You posted about the christian rap thing and it comes from your experience, you know more about gothardism than I do, I might have posted that coming from my experience on fundamentalist catholicism. You're right though but I still think they're not changing that much. Sorry if that hit a nerve on you, I didn't mean to and it wasn't directed at you but your response was a bit agressive.

I found the other post! And I was born aggressive, baby!

 

[Palimpsest]

7 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

All I'm saying is that cherry picking the parts of your faith/upbringing that you like and ignoring the rest is not an exclusive to ATI/IBLP folk. I'd run out of fingers before I'm even half done if I used my hands to count all the people I know with a bible quote in their Instagram bios and have premarital sex. Given that I don't really give them a hard time over this beyond maybe an eyebrow raise, it would feel hypocritical of me to drag Alyssa over the coals for being a cherry picker. 

Fair enough, and thanks for responding.

I still have to ask if you get the difference between Fundies (including the strangely beloved Alyssa) manipulating their images to appear more palatable to the main-stream and people with faith working non-hypocritically and thoughtfully within.  @laPapessaGiovanna put my thoughts into words brilliantly here.

Thanks, @laPapessaGiovanna.

[formergothardite]

@LawsonBatesEgo, Alyssa isn't your average Christian posting Bible verses and then having sex outside of marriage. Alyssa is promoting the idea that a hate group is normal and nice. She is making money doing this. I wouldn't compare her to an average person who cherry picks what is convenient. 

[backyard sylph]

Having just read roughly 9000 Bateses posts here, going back four years or so over the past few days, I feel semi-qualified to suggest these "not to be a[n] [apologist]" statements are not specifically passive-aggressive, but said in fear of being accused of being that thing. A number of them certainly are naive fans in that they wish these people to be much other than they are, yet others just want to sometimes like something about one of the young adults without being beaten relentlessly with the GIL IS BAD hammer.

I understand why that's needed in general; I've watched the Duggar thing unfold for the past decade, and watched some of the fans make some rather astonishing excuses for all that mess. But I can tell the difference easily between just being positive or hopeful by nature and outright fangirly gushing, and the one wouldn't wish to be accused continually of doing the other, and would tend to fight back against that accusation. You can kill flies with either vinegar or honey, after all. But you don't spoil Gil's honey trap with vinegar; that just makes salad dressing. Though possibly I digress...

 

 

[OrchidBlossom]

51 minutes ago, backyard sylph said:

Having just read roughly 9000 Bateses posts here, going back four years or so over the past few days, I feel semi-qualified to suggest these "not to be a[n] [apologist]" statements are not specifically passive-aggressive, but said in fear of being accused of being that thing. A number of them certainly are naive fans in that they wish these people to be much other than they are, yet others just want to sometimes like something about one of the young adults without being beaten relentlessly with the GIL IS BAD hammer.

Well, I think that perhaps that is the intention of some posters (not referring to the specific interaction that has been playing out above, just speaking generally) but honestly, no one gets hand slapped around here for having a fondness for a particular fundie. Not once has anyone ever yelled at me for my fondness for Alyssa (though I readily admit she seems quite dull) and Erin Bates. I find both of them to be likeable enough on the face of things, and I particularly root for them to have some kind of awakening of all the fundies we discuss here (in addition to one or two Duggar kids) (but alas, have very little hope). 

I don't think that is a problem and I don't think anyone minds when someone finds something likeable about one of them. They are people, they aren't just evil caricatures, sometimes parts of their personalities will appeal (or not appeal-- I really don't like Michael much for no particular reason, for example) to us. But I think the difference, and the "Bates are Bad" Hammer to use your phrase, is when it goes from "I like this thing about (whoever)" to "I like this thing about (whoever) so that means they are less fundie/I won't criticize them/stop being mean to them/I'll make excuses for their bad behavior". We exist to criticize these people and to shed some light (snarky light, but light) on the abuses that they perpetuate. It's one thing to feel a fondness for a certain fundie because of their personality or whatever but it is another to exempt that fundie from criticism BECAUSE you like them.

Again, not stating that anyone was or was not doing so immediately above, but just trying to illuminate what I see the major difference as being.

[backyard sylph]

I just think nuances of expression are important, and I see them sometimes overlooked.

I have gone from reading this site on and off for pure amusement to a sense that I can lend something to the conversation; humor, discourse, some life experiences and a little aged insight. I suppose that there are a number of people who simply like to chatter, though. Some of them are never going to gain a deep-rooted understanding of the context of it all, others stick around and learn more, but aren't always great at juggling TV show likeability with the knowledge of a darker underbelly. That requires an odd sort of cognitive dissonance on its own.

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, backyard sylph said:

But I can tell the difference easily between just being positive or hopeful by nature and outright fangirly gushing

So can most of us. 

Hell, I think pretty much anyone who has posted on Bates thread have at some point said something that they like about the Bates, including me. Even Nellie loves little Jeb and wants the best for him. The difference is not acting like they are less fundie because they they aren't straight evil. This is a family trying to normalize a hate group.  They are trying to normalize a hateful cult and belief system that has destroyed lives. And it seems people forget that and want to turn Alyssa wearing pants and Tori being loud and outgoing into this family being less dangerous and less fundie. 

We are still at the point where I'm getting asked what is dangerous about this show. That is a pretty damn good sign that people aren't grasping how this family is trying to make evil look good. 

[LawsonBatesEgo]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Fair enough, and thanks for responding.

I still have to ask if you get the difference between Fundies (including the strangely beloved Alyssa) manipulating their images to appear more palatable to the main-stream and people with faith working non-hypocritically and thoughtfully within.  @laPapessaGiovanna put my thoughts into words brilliantly here.

Thanks, @laPapessaGiovanna.

I personally wouldn't be surprised at all if the cherry picking was both manipulating things to be more palatable to the main-stream and Alyssa doing some cherry picking in the same way more mainstream Christians and just keeping what she wants (ie: making it clear she is limiting the size of her family because having a quiver of twenty arrows doesn't appeal to her so.....she is just tossing that one aside). 

[19 cats and counting]

Just out of curiosity--- Aside from the show (which would probably be easier said than done to opt out), what proof is there that Alyssa, Erin, or Zach* have been promoting ATI/IBLP since marriage?  

Have they spoken at (or attended) conferences?  Done an online video for IBLP?   Been keynote speakers like the Duggar girls have (Jana and Jinger did a mother/daughter event)?  Gone on speaking tours?  Written blog posts for the cult?  Social media posts promoting Gothardism (not generic Christian posts)?

*Michael married an IBLP employee so I'm leaving her out of this as she's already super involved.  

ETA They meaning Alyssa, Erin, or Zach.  Not Gil and Kelly or any unmarried kid/kidult.

[Palimpsest]

6 minutes ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

I personally wouldn't be surprised at all if the cherry picking was both manipulating things to be more palatable to the main-stream and Alyssa doing some cherry picking in the same way more mainstream Christians and just keeping what she wants (ie: making it clear she is limiting the size of her family because having a quiver of twenty arrows doesn't appeal to her so.....she is just tossing that one aside). 

There is really not a whole lot of cherry-picking going on with Alyssa.  There is a whole lot of wishful thinking going on with Alyssa fans though.  Sorry.

Just an FYI: "I'm just enjoying the one(s) I have" is a direct quote from Anna Keller Duggar between baby 2 or 3 (or baby 3 or 4, I forget).  You have absolutely no evidence that she is limiting her family size.  She is just following the party line (and the line most mothers take with overly intrusive questions about reproduction) about family size.

No real evidence that she is tossing anything aside.  I'm sorry if that upsets you. 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

So can most of us. 

Hell, I think pretty much anyone who has posted on Bates thread have at some point said something that they like about the Bates, including me. Even Nellie loves little Jeb and wants the best for him. The difference is not acting like they are less fundie because they they aren't straight evil. This is a family trying to normalize a hate group.  They are trying to normalize a hateful cult and belief system that has destroyed lives. And it seems people forget that and want to turn Alyssa wearing pants and Tori being loud and outgoing into this family being less dangerous and less fundie. 

We are still at the point where I'm getting asked what is dangerous about this show. That is a pretty damn good sign that people aren't grasping how this family is trying to make evil look good. 

I love Addallee too! She just isn't Jeb! And I want to kidnap Adaline Morton ( drove through Moultrie twice last month and seriously wished she was there still so I could throw her in the trunk). Oh yeah and I would I totally kiss Luke Arndt if I did not think he would combust. And I long to give Kendalyn Staddon a plane ticket and new identity - I think she would go.....

[HerNameIsBuffy]

Just now, nelliebelle1197 said:

I love Addallee too! She just isn't Jeb! And I want to kidnap Adaline Morton ( drove through Moultrie twice last month and seriously wished she was there still so I could throw her in the trunk). Oh yeah and I would I totally kiss Luke Arndt if I did not think he would combust. And I long to give Kendalyn Staddon a plane ticket and new identity - I think she would go.....

Do I need to arrange some kind of intervention for you?

You have Phil and his Amazing eyebrows.  That should be enough for any woman.

[formergothardite]

@19 cats and counting participating in a show that is trying to normalize an IBLP family and an awful, awful belief system is pretty damning evidence that they are cool with it all, but Alyssa and the rest also allow their image and the images of their children to be used to attract people to the IBLP family conference. IBLP uses these conferences not just to keep families who are getting burned out from jumping ship, but to also attract new members. The Bates, all of them, are linked as participants to help attract folks. As long as she is allowing IBLP to use her image to draw people into the cult, she is promoting IBLP. She could say that her picture and the picture of her little family can't be used to attract people to IBLP, but she doesn't. 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

5 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

You can kill flies with either vinegar or honey, after all. But you don't spoil Gil's honey trap with vinegar; that just makes salad dressing. Though possibly I digress...

Honey can ferment and become acid if there's too much humidity in it. We are trying to make people aware that spreading hate, supporting limiting other people's options in life for your religious beliefs, hiding and justifying abuse can't be forgotten nor minimized. Gil's honey is rotten and yet people trick themselves into not feeling the acidic taste because the bees that produced it are pretty.

[RosyDaisy]

I like sassy little Callie. She reminds me so much of my niece at that age. However, that does not change how I feel about her toxic, evil cult of a family. I also have soft spot for Jenny and Jordyn Duggar, but again, that doesn't change how I feel about the Duggars.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

9 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

There is really not a whole lot of cherry-picking going on with Alyssa.  There is a whole lot of wishful thinking going on with Alyssa fans though.  Sorry.

Just an FYI: "I'm just enjoying the one(s) I have" is a direct quote from Anna Keller Duggar between baby 2 or 3 (or baby 3 or 4, I forget).  You have absolutely no evidence that she is limiting her family size.  She is just following the party line (and the line most mothers take with overly intrusive questions about reproduction) about family size.

No real evidence that she is tossing anything aside.  I'm sorry if that upsets you. 

Someone (can't remember who) has posted in this thread that Alyssa has said on the show/behind the scenes videos that she is not going to be having a huge quiver and will have a smaller family. That to me indicates she is limiting her family size.

Now that said, I don't watch the Bates show (I love myself far too much to do that) so maybe that is not what she said. I just took the post I read at face value. 

[backyard sylph]

7 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Honey can ferment and become acid if there's too much humidity in it. We are trying to make people aware that spreading hate, supporting limiting other people's options in life for your religious beliefs, hiding and justifying abuse can't be forgotten nor minimized. Gil's honey is rotten and yet people trick themselves into not feeling the acidic taste because the bees that produced it are pretty.

Nuances in my own writing are not that difficult to read. I have stated very clearly, more than once, that I agree with this, when it is needed, and, to add to that, in a positive communal spirit. That's all. I have nothing more to say on it, and will continue to speak with lateral reason on other topics.

[Palimpsest]

11 hours ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Just out of curiosity--- Aside from the show (which would probably be easier said than done to opt out), what proof is there that Alyssa, Erin, or Zach* have been promoting ATI/IBLP since marriage?  

Have they spoken at (or attended) conferences?  Done an online video for IBLP?   Been keynote speakers like the Duggar girls have (Jana and Jinger did a mother/daughter event)?  Gone on speaking tours?  Written blog posts for the cult?  Social media posts promoting Gothardism (not generic Christian posts)?

*Michael married an IBLP employee so I'm leaving her out of this as she's already super involved.  

ETA They meaning Alyssa, Erin, or Zach.  Not Gil and Kelly or any unmarried kid/kidult.

Out of curiosity - haven't you asked this before several times?

Sorry, we can't ignore the show.  It is front and central. Opinions vary as to how easy it would be to leave.  There's been a lot of squeeing about how wonderful it is that Zach, Chad, and John have "real" jobs to support their families.  That leaves me with the impression that they are participating voluntarily in a show that promotes and whitewashes IBLP beliefs.  

As far as getting out of family contracts go - Jacob Roloff is one person who opted out of a Reality TV show as soon as he could.  He has been quite vocal on the subject of the evils of growing up Reality TV on social media - including just last week. I wish many of minors in these families could listen to him.  I wish the young adult Bateses would read what he has to say and reconsider subjecting their own offsping to Reality TV as well.   http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2016/07/jacob-roloff-quits-little-people-big-world-exposes-fakery/ 

But I digress.  You want "evidence" of attending conferences, speaking gigs, and Duggar-like activities.  Because these, and only these, sort of things will "prove" to you that they are promoting IBLP.

You do realize that some combination of UPTV, Figure 8 Productions and the Bates père and mère are trying hard to downplay the IBLP connection?  It seems rather obvious that UPTV has a say in what these people put out on social media.  

In addition, the Bates younger generation has never been prominent on the IBLP speaking circuit - although there are plenty of videos of them performing music.  IIRC, Erin was interviewed once with Jana Duggar for a JTTH advertisement but neither of them are good speakers.  Erin came over as very shy but that was a few years ago.

Then there is misdirection:  Gil and Kelly went so far as to post pictures of themselves implying that they having a second honeymoon in Niagara Falls when they were in fact at Big Sandy.  So transparent.  There were also far fewer photographs of people at Big Sandy this year.  I only saw one photo of Gil and one of Kelly and none of any of the kids, which is very unusual.  Big Sandy is also not the only Family Conference - the dog and pony show is on the road and any combination of Bateses could have attended one of the smaller conferences instead.

Have you ever heard of arguments from ignorance and false dichotomies?  Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence.  

That is especially true when people are deliberately trying to hide evidence of the connection and present themselves as squeaky-clean mainstream Christians.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

And I long to give Kendalyn Staddon a plane ticket and new identity - I think she would go.....

Have you seen the thread about the latest Staddon bride?  Kathryn makes Kendalyn look positively enthusiastic!

And I think would definitely be a case of spontaneous combustion if you got your harlot's lips on Luke Arndt!

[Casserole]

24 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

As far as getting out of family contracts go - Jacob Roloff is one person who opted out of a Reality TV show as soon as he could.  He has been quite vocal on the subject of the evils of growing up Reality TV on social media - including just last week. I wish many of minors in these families could listen to him.  I wish the young adult Bateses would read what he has to say and reconsider subjecting their own offsping to Reality TV as well.   http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2016/07/jacob-roloff-quits-little-people-big-world-exposes-fakery/ 

 

Agreed. However, while I wish these kids being forced on TV could hear what Jacob is saying, their circumstances are so different. Did Jacob risk his relationship with his family/money/stability/home? Yes, and he's very brave. But I'm willing to bet he didn't also have to be fearful of being beaten into submission whether he was an "adult" or not. Jacob is also a member of the "real world." He's not afraid to go out and live on his own, get a job, go to school, grocery shop alone, etc. etc. What would a Bates kid do in his situation? I'd be fearful for what would happen to a still-at-home Bates kid refusing to do the show and defying Daddy.

You would think the now married-with-kids Bates' would get it and keep their kids away, but Daddy said the tv show was a blessing and they can't go against that 

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, backyard sylph said:

Nuances in my own writing are not that difficult to read. I have stated very clearly, more than once, that I agree with this, when it is needed, and, to add to that, in a positive communal spirit. That's all. I have nothing more to say on it, and will continue to speak with lateral reason on other topics.

 

Sorry, but none of your writing is easy to discern. I do not know if English is your second language, but I am seeing lots of words and little nuance here.

[nelliebelle1197]

30 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Have you seen the thread about the latest Staddon bride?  Kathryn makes Kendalyn look positively enthusiastic!

And I think would definitely be a case of spontaneous combustion if you got your harlot's lips on Luke Arndt!

Oh yes. I am desperate for Poor Esther to marry OR SOMETHING,  so I track Staddons.

Luke is so cute. He works out a lot. He needs a cuddle.