Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[SassyPants]

On September 19, 2016 at 2:20 AM, Melissa1977 said:

I think Tori said they weren't marrying soon. Maybe she wants to finish her degree. Or maybe they're waiting for Bobby getting a better paid job.

Alyssa married very young but keep in mind she wasn't interested at all in getting a degree, plus she explained how she loved quiet and I suppose she was willing to marry to get away from that noisy messy house.

Did anyone see that video (it was recently posted on the UP site/Bates Family) when Alyssa/John announced their first pregnancy to her family? She was wearing a shirt that said "bun in the oven" and the family took a moment and then started firing questions at she and John. I think Kelly even asked, "Are you PG"?  Alyssa looked like she just wanted to crawl in a hole and die. The family was shrieking and she was silently standing there almost trying to make herself disappear. It seems to me that for Alyssa, growing up in the Bateses' home was very hard. I wonder why she wore that shirt????

[Bethella]

10 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder why she wore that shirt????

The producers thought it would make a nice plot line?

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, Bethella said:

The producers thought it would make a nice plot line?

Agreed. That absolutely doesn't seem like something Alyssa would do.

[BobTheWalrus]

On 12/06/2016 at 2:50 AM, Ali said:

I didn't grow up in a IFB church, so I can't comment much about that. I was raised Christian. I wouldn't call it fundie, but perhaps some here would. I witnessed some family members become a different kind of Christian. It was a huge deal to an older member of my family when this happened. There were tears, fasting, and a determination to convert them back to the right kind of Christian. 

There is a huge doctrinal difference between Arminianism and Calvinism. Doctrinal differences, such as these, is a huge thing for those rigid in their beliefs. Becoming a different kind of Christian is no small matter for some people and Ben Seewald belief's could be extremely upsetting to some. The fact that Jim Bob agreed to allow Jessa to marry him shows that he has some flexibility. 

Those who have been involved with ATI, such as Formergotherite, have repeatedly stated that wearing pants is not a big deal.

There is information about different beliefs here: 

http://www.freejinger.org/forum/322-religions-belief-systems/

For me, this really illustrates how I would define a fundamentalist. That black-and-white thinking, causing their world view to be defined by rigidity and judgment. I'm a Christian, and in some ways I think people here might consider me to be fundamentalist. I believe a lot of the same things the fundies do - the Bible is the word of God, Jesus died to save us from our sins, God created the world etc etc. I love my church and feel that my denomination is the right place for me to be. But I have friends in other denominations, and even (gasp!) friends from other religions, or who are atheists. I enjoy their company, and we can talk about anything from kids to books to politics to religion, and it doesn't bother me, because my faith is deep enough not to be shaken by someone disagreeing with me, and because it didn't require me to check my brain in at the door. I dipped my toe in fundiedom for a couple of years until I realised it was causing me to make most of my decisions out of fear so I got out.  I wasn't deep in, and it wasn't ATI so I can't shed light on that, but it makes me wonder how many families and women are in the same situation I was, doing everything out of fear. I know they come across as really arrogant and smug and judgmental, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were also turning that judgment on themselves, and clinging to that rigidity because they're terrified of making a mistake.

[season of life]

Does anyone think the Tori and Bobby relationship will last to marriage? The girls seem to have a better courting track, but I see how young Tori is and I can't picture her being a wife or mother so soon.

[elliha]

On 2016-09-12 at 2:32 AM, Palimpsest said:

Alyssa married a man who was working in Daddy's business and Daddy is steeped in IBLP.  Erin married a man who is working in an IBLP approved business and whose Daddy is a big shot at IBLP.  Michael married a man who is out-and-out working for IBLP.  

IBLP is, if not actually on the rocks, dwindling in power.

The Duggar girls appear to be marrying men of a slightly different stripe.  More Calvinist than Baptist but definitely Fundies.  Not all Fundies are IBLP/Gothardite.

So what was your point?

 

 

I think they will last, they seem quite into each other. I mean, even in the secular world early matches can last a long time. Three of my brothers and sisters found their partner before 20 and have all been together for over 20 years with their partners. My sister and her husband were 15 and 17 when they met and are now 52 and 54. 

[HereticHick]

Tori Bates, age 20, is already older than Alyssa when she got engaged. Alyssa dated at 17, courted at 18, married at 19, and gave birth at 20.

[CorruptionInc.]

On 10/4/2016 at 2:33 AM, HereticHick said:

Tori Bates, age 20, is already older than Alyssa when she got engaged. Alyssa dated at 17, courted at 18, married at 19, and gave birth at 20.

I remember Alyssa being so young and thinking it was a bit silly...

At 17, I was still in high school, smoking and drinking, 18 I was drunk and partying a lot, 19, working hard and playing harder, 20 I took my first full time job in an office and grew up quite quickly, however still no way was I ready to marry or give birth.

My mum got married at 20 and had her first child at 21 in 1970. This was normal, but now, completely different situation!

[Melissa1977]

8 hours ago, CorruptionInc. said:

I remember Alyssa being so young and thinking it was a bit silly...

At 17, I was still in high school, smoking and drinking, 18 I was drunk and partying a lot, 19, working hard and playing harder, 20 I took my first full time job in an office and grew up quite quickly, however still no way was I ready to marry or give birth.

 

Alyssa was stuck in a house cleaning and cooking for 20 people and not having the privacy she seems to love. Marrying meant living with her loved man, having a private place and a lot of money and freedom in comparison.

Was I ready to marry at 18? no I wasn't. Was marriage the best for 18 years-old Alyssa? yes, it was, I'm sure.

 

[TShirtsLongSkirts]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

Alyssa was stuck in a house cleaning and cooking for 20 people and not having the privacy she seems to love. Marrying meant living with her loved man, having a private place and a lot of money and freedom in comparison.

Was I ready to marry at 18? no I wasn't. Was marriage the best for 18 years-old Alyssa? yes, it was, I'm sure.

 

 

Even better option would have been to break free of the IBLP cult, live her own life without a "headship" and find herself without being brainwashed.

unrealistic I know but I still hope.

[season of life]

Presumably it's a tad better being married to John. Alyssa has her own home, privacy, and she doesn't have to live with so many other people. I'm glad she married someone who could provide because with her limited options, it can be all too possible to have ended up with a total dud.

[faraway]

Alyssa marrying was what going to college is to normal people. You move out, make more decisions on your own and have more freedom.

[crazysnark]

Alyssa has always reminded me of myself. Dated my husband at 16, engaged at 17, married at 18, mother at 19 and had my second at 21. We used to be fundie-light but aren't really much of anything. If i wasn't really religious I doubt I would have gotten married so young and had my kids so young but I love my life now. At 24, I am over the baby stage and will be able to retire early and enjoy my adult kids. It's all about what you make it. 

[nausicaa]

8 hours ago, TShirtsLongSkirts said:

Even better option would have been to break free of the IBLP cult, live her own life without a "headship" and find herself without being brainwashed.

unrealistic I know but I still hope.

Yes, and also marrying at 19 was the best choice for Alyssa for now. I get why she did it given the options she had, but considering she's only been married two years, I don't think we're out of the ballpark on whether this was a great path to take in general or whether or not John is a total dud.

Let's wait to check in when she's 35 or 40 and see what she has to say about it. 

[zadie]

In reference to upthread when someone mentioned Tori is one of the more religious out of all the kids, does anyone know who her buddy was? I'm wondering if it was Michaela. 

It would be interesting to see who was buddies with who and how their personalities/beliefs are in comparison.

[Melissa1977]

4 hours ago, zadie said:

In reference to upthread when someone mentioned Tori is one of the more religious out of all the kids, does anyone know who her buddy was? I'm wondering if it was Michaela. 

It would be interesting to see who was buddies with who and how their personalities/beliefs are in comparison.

Michaela was maybe 5 when Tori was born. No buddies then, at least not buddies at sister-mom level.

[just_ordinary]

9 hours ago, zadie said:

In reference to upthread when someone mentioned Tori is one of the more religious out of all the kids, does anyone know who her buddy was? I'm wondering if it was Michaela.

(Not a direct response to zadie)

I wonder why people think that Tori is more religious than the others. I do not get those vibes from her. And since she is courting Bobby (or still getting to know or stopped courting??? Feel free to fill me in- I am truly wondering) I have not seen much of her. And those characterisations on their blog- they are so full of keywords I do not belive half of it. For her comments regarding how her younger siblings do not get trained as harsh- is that not what a lot of older siblings say? I used to (and still do) tell my parents all the time how I was not allowed to this ot that at a certain age and how they spoil my brothers. It was half fun, half jealousy (the older I get the more fun it was).

She and Carlin striked me as those typical teenage girl that are so annoying some times. And the second she got a boy she started to loose weight (babyfat or started sports?) and became much quieter. Makes me think she gets some godly wife training. I am very sad about this- she and Whitney are the ones I really have a soft spot for ( do not know even why). Too sad they all seem to bathing in kool-aid right now, but one can hope....

[zadie]

4 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

(Not a direct response to zadie)

I wonder why people think that Tori is more religious than the others. I do not get those vibes from her. And since she is courting Bobby (or still getting to know or stopped courting??? Feel free to fill me in- I am truly wondering) I have not seen much of her. And those characterisations on their blog- they are so full of keywords I do not belive half of it. For her comments regarding how her younger siblings do not get trained as harsh- is that not what a lot of older siblings say? I used to (and still do) tell my parents all the time how I was not allowed to this ot that at a certain age and how they spoil my brothers. It was half fun, half jealousy (the older I get the more fun it was).

She and Carlin striked me as those typical teenage girl that are so annoying some times. And the second she got a boy she started to loose weight (babyfat or started sports?) and became much quieter. Makes me think she gets some godly wife training. I am very sad about this- she and Whitney are the ones I really have a soft spot for ( do not know even why). Too sad they all seem to bathing in kool-aid right now, but one can hope....

 

I believe someone said the kids named Tori as one of the ones most likely to have 19 kids, and some of us interpreted that as her being more religious than the others, in combination with the other things you mentioned.

I agree, I don't think her comment about the punishments points to any particular religiosity, I think that's a common feeling in older siblings. I also don't think Tori being bubbly and outgoing is any sign of her being a typical teenage girl. Actually, I think her being so extroverted might be more reason she'd end up with more kids. She would be more equip to handle all of the noise and people constantly around her. (not implying this is the only thing she'd need to be a good mother to a whole bunch of children lol)

[just_ordinary]

I really can't imagine someone being a good parent to so many children...

But I understand you point.

Sadly, even if she would only have 6+ (think Alyssa stating 6-8), where I am from she would be considered fully Quiverfull if she held the right believes. Here the definition is "try to have upwards of six children". Not saying everyone with more children is Quiverfull but if she follows the concept I would she is. Hopefully as a person who might handle noise well she would not supress the behavior of heir future children completely.

[nokidsmom]

On 10/5/2016 at 1:20 PM, nausicaa said:

Yes, and also marrying at 19 was the best choice for Alyssa for now. I get why she did it given the options she had, but considering she's only been married two years, I don't think we're out of the ballpark on whether this was a great path to take in general or whether or not John is a total dud.

Let's wait to check in when she's 35 or 40 and see what she has to say about it. 

Right, time will tell whether this was a good choice in the long run.   But that can be true for many people not just young fundie women who take their only acceptable option in leaving the family home.   While at first I thought she was crazy to get married so young, seeing how much she enjoys her life with John and Allie, I became more convinced that she knew what she was doing.  She knew her options such as they were and frankly IMHO took as much charge of her life as was allowed.  Not that she doesn't care for John, quite the contrary she seems very happy with him but I really think she wanted out, saw the chance and ran with it.     It is the best choice for her now.  

[HereticHick]

Did anyone notice the picture on Lawson's twitter yesterday of Lawson, Tori and her beau? It has a location stamp of Pensacola Christian Academy.

Hmmm, if these 3 were in Pensacola yesterday (and why was Lawson there? Is he scheduled to perform?) are they going to Jinger's wedding, if it is indeed this weekend?

[just_ordinary]

I was already questioning if they were still seeing each other.

[justmy2cents]

3 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Did anyone notice the picture on Lawson's twitter yesterday of Lawson, Tori and her beau? It has a location stamp of Pensacola Christian Academy.

Hmmm, if these 3 were in Pensacola yesterday (and why was Lawson there? Is he scheduled to perform?) are they going to Jinger's wedding, if it is indeed this weekend?

Cute picture.  I would imagine that the Bates family would have made it on the family and close friends list for the wedding.  I know they're not officially courting yet but I imagine Bobby would be Tori's plus one since they openly admit that he's her boyfriend.  

[JillyO]

It's much easier for everyone if you link the picture you're talking about. Here it is:

 

 

[hollywood]

I can never escape these people. Pensacola is about 20 minutes from me. Crazy.