Tori Bates Courtship- Part 2

[Kak]

On 14 September 2016 at 10:55 PM, faraway said:

I wasn't snarking the least about him working two jobs, that does show good work ethic indeed. I was just speculating that it probably didn't pay too well.

I was just saying that unemployable Ben makes probably more cash than equally unemployable John. Before moving to AR, Ben worked fixing windshields with his dad, seems pretty comparable to John's situation. Bin got financially lucky with his courtship and wedding. If John had that kind of cashflow from UPTV, maybe he would quit his dayjob too, who knows.

 

I see (and agree with) the point you're making about John.  The congressman's son works in the family business. That's a position of privilege. But maybe not a particularly well paid position right now. 

As far as I know Ben works in TV, while studying. That is also a privileged position. Does he work for JB as well? I don't know, but if he does he's earning extra to support his family. 

Good for John for supporting his family, good for Ben, studying to improve his future. Both are pretty normal things to do. 

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, LawsonBatesEgo said:

 

Poor Jilly Muffin.....she probably thought she'd married the smart and reasonable one with a respectable career until the lord called him to throw it all in and stop bathing. 

I have the feeling that it worked the opposite way. I think it was Jill who dreamed to go to Central America to ministry and convinced Derick to leave his job. I mean, she had been in CA before and she loved it, and after the sexual abuse scandal, I understand she wanted to go abroad. I see Jill kinda hippy, but in a fundie way. I don't see her happy with a typical middle class life.

[VelociRapture]

At the end of the day, they're all in the same cult. Which means they're all fucked to a certain extent. 

Chad and John can fall back on their resumes (to a certain extent) should they ever need to. Jeremy, Derick, and Ben can fall back on their educations (to a certain extent) as well.

Only in-laws I see right now being truly fucked are probably Anna and Brandon: Anna because she has no legitimate education or work experience and Brandon because he studied and works exclusively at the shrine of Gothard. Even Whit could be better off since she has an Associate's in Medical Coding - she could take refresher courses to qualify for a job or continue her studies further if needed.

[faraway]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

At the end of the day, they're all in the same cult. Which means they're all fucked to a certain extent. 

Exactly. And they're all happily exploiting their small children in magazines and on TV for cash.

[HereticHick]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

At the end of the day, they're all in the same cult. Which means they're all fucked to a certain extent. 

Chad and John can fall back on their resumes (to a certain extent) should they ever need to. Jeremy, Derick, and Ben can fall back on their educations (to a certain extent) as well.

Only in-laws I see right now being truly fucked are probably Anna and Brandon: Anna because she has no legitimate education or work experience and Brandon because he studied and works exclusively at the shrine of Gothard. Even Whit could be better off since she has an Associate's in Medical Coding - she could take refresher courses to qualify for a job or continue her studies further if needed.

Good summary, Velocirapture.  And  Michaella has an AA (allegedly) & nanny experience, so she could earn money childcare (including in her home, which would be slightly more Gothard-approved), and Erin could keep on giving music lessons.

You are right--Brandon really is the "householder" in a precarious position.  [and Josh, of course, because he has no education & the whole world knows he's a pig]

[sansan]

On September 15, 2016 at 8:14 AM, HereticHick said:

So working as an HVAC technician = "unemployable"?  

I'm sure you don't mean to do so, but your comment comes off as a pretty broad-based snear at anyone not working a white-collar desk job.

I have to wonder if the use of "unemployable" means they did not attend college. I also did not attend college and only took a couple of classes. I do take exception to that, if indeed, it is what people posting mean. I retired working for a NASA contractor and trained/mentored all the college graduates that we hired. I would take experience over education almost every time, they were not prepared for the corporate world and many never became valuable employees. 

[faraway]

No, that's not what I meant. Someone on the previous page said Ben had no employable skills, so I used the term "unemployable". I actually didn't meant it in any way it was understood here, but in a more overdrawn way. To be clear: In this day and age (almost) nobody is unemployable. Everyone can learn skills and work their way up with or without education. Does everyone want to do that?

This is where we get to fundies. They like to live and work in their own little fundie world and I'm sure a lot of them would struggle in the real world, because they have no real experience with it. Fundie homeschooling is a bubble, Clown College is a bubble and working with your siblings in daddy's business is a fundie bubble as well. Could a John Webster work for a different business if needed? Probably. Maybe his lack of formal education (I don't think he has any) would be an issue. Maybe he wouldn't want to, because working for someone else is not very popular in the fundie world.

[SassyPants]

Face it, until JB passes Josh is the only one of the group that is truly hosed. Even Anna could get a job in a day care. She has some fundie credentials. 

[VelociRapture]

11 hours ago, HereticHick said:

Good summary, Velocirapture.  And  Michaella has an AA (allegedly) & nanny experience, so she could earn money childcare (including in her home, which would be slightly more Gothard-approved), and Erin could keep on giving music lessons.

You are right--Brandon really is the "householder" in a precarious position.  [and Josh, of course, because he has no education & the whole world knows he's a pig]

The only concerns I have for Whitney, Michael, Anna, and the other women is whether or not they'd be able to or want to work full-time if needed. Like if their husbands were unemployed or no longer able to work for some reason. Would they, their spouses, and their families be ok with a woman becoming the breadwinner? 

If they ever left the movement then that likely wouldn't be a concern. But the longer they stay in, the harder it will be if the need should ever arise. I want to think they'd do what's necessary for their kids... But I think I'm a bit too skeptical at this point to really believe that.

And yes. I agree Josh is pretty fucked over at this point - partly due to circumstances outside his control (like being born a Duggar) and partly due to the fact that he's a child molesting asshole who also cheated on his wife. I was looking more at the various Bates and Duggar in-laws, but looking at the offspring could be interesting as well.

Still, these are all people in the same cult so they're all equally fucked in some aspects.

[feministxtian]

John Webster would have to have some certifications to work in the HVAC world. It's not necessarily a "college education" but there are certain training classes required and certifications needed to do that. If I remember correctly, in certain situations, permits are needed for HVAC installation and the contractor/installer has to have their certifications on file to be able to have those permits pulled. 

https://www.angieslist.com/articles/which-hvac-certifications-do-technicians-need.htm

[HerNameIsBuffy]

10 hours ago, feministxtian said:

John Webster would have to have some certifications to work in the HVAC world. It's not necessarily a "college education" but there are certain training classes required and certifications needed to do that. If I remember correctly, in certain situations, permits are needed for HVAC installation and the contractor/installer has to have their certifications on file to be able to have those permits pulled. 

https://www.angieslist.com/articles/which-hvac-certifications-do-technicians-need.htm

Absolutely.  And there is good money in that.  I'm always happy to see one of them make a living by something that actually has a useful purpose to society rather than some form of "ministry." 

Doesn't make their beliefs less dangerous, but at least they are doing something useful with the majority of their week giving them less time to devote to trying to force that crap on everyone else.

Like Derek did before Jim-Bob caught him in the Duggar web of grifting for Jesus.  Or Ben when he repaired windsheilds before moving to AR to manage his fils toilets.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

14 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Face it, until JB passes Josh is the only one of the group that is truly hosed. Even Anna could get a job in a day care. She has some fundie credentials. 

She could probably get a job in a daycare but certainly not one that pays enough to even come close to supporting herself and 4 kids.  

Even if she didn't have to pay for childcare herself due to family - if she did?  Forget it, she wouldn't be able to afford to work if her area didn't have some kind of program to offset costs for low income women.

Josh is by no means the only one of them completely screwed by this lifestyle.

[Dandruff]

On 9/16/2016 at 6:26 AM, Melissa1977 said:

I have the feeling that it worked the opposite way. I think it was Jill who dreamed to go to Central America to ministry and convinced Derick to leave his job. I mean, she had been in CA before and she loved it, and after the sexual abuse scandal, I understand she wanted to go abroad. I see Jill kinda hippy, but in a fundie way. I don't see her happy with a typical middle class life.

I think Jill also wanted to get Derick away from his corporate job.  Wasn't she driving him to and from work and meeting him for lunch?  My guess is that she was uncomfortable with there being other women around him (co-workers, etc.), and that he was accountable to an entity whose name wasn't Jesus or Jim Bob.

[Italiangirl]

Any news on Tory and Bobby? They are still in the "getting to know you" phase?  Do you think she will be the new Alyssa and married soon or she wait a little bit Like Michael? 

[VelociRapture]

35 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I think Jill also wanted to get Derick away from his corporate job.  Wasn't she driving him to and from work and meeting him for lunch?  My guess is that she was uncomfortable with there being other women around him (co-workers, etc.), and that he was accountable to an entity whose name wasn't Jesus or Jim Bob.

She did drive him to work and did have lunch with him often. However, I get the feeling Derick was fine with it. If he didn't like it he could have easily put an end to it - and Jill would have had to listen because their messed up beliefs don't allow her a real voice in the relationship. It's always possible that Derick (or any Fundie husband) is happy to listen to her opinions and wants her to have a voice... But I don't know if Jill's stunted upbringing would allow her to voice real opposition even if that were the case.

I tend to think her actions were more linked to the fact that she went from a house constantly filled with people to being alone the majority of the day. She strikes me as someone who would struggle a lot with such a sudden change - kind of the opposite of Alyssa Webster, who seems to have really thrived in her quieter married environment. I think Erin had a bit of a tough time transitioning too, but her family seems to be fairly close by and I don't know how far Chad's work is - so I don't think she would have needed to cling to him so much.

[LawsonBatesEgo]

6 hours ago, Dandruff said:

I think Jill also wanted to get Derick away from his corporate job.  Wasn't she driving him to and from work and meeting him for lunch?  My guess is that she was uncomfortable with there being other women around him (co-workers, etc.), and that he was accountable to an entity whose name wasn't Jesus or Jim Bob.

Oh I remember that. But i got the impression that Jilly Muffin didn't know what to do with herself when she suddenly went from living in the TTH with over a dozen people always around to talk to and there always being something to do (laundry, cooking, homeschooling your siblings since your mother is useless and lazy etc) to living all by herself with just her husband in a quiet house where he is gone most of the day. If she's an extrovert, it would have been a bit of an adjustment for her. 

I do agree that it well could have been Jill who convinced Derick to quit his Walmart job and go preaching for Jeebus in El Salvador. A little bit surprising/disappointing that someone with a degree could be convinced to do something like that, but I guess that's the power of the cult and family. I get the impression that with Derick's Dad gone and his Mother being in poor health, he likes the idea of being part of this 'big family'. 

Oh and speaking of Derick's family, you can find his Instagram very easily since Jill/Derick have tagged him before. Looks like he's getting married to a normal Christian girl who wears sleeveless shirts and pants and shows her knees. Good for Dan, he

6 hours ago, Italiangirl said:

Any news on Tory and Bobby? They are still in the "getting to know you" phase?  Do you think she will be the new Alyssa and married soon or she wait a little bit Like Michael? 

To get back on topic, I don't know. 

I hope she finishes her "degree", even though she'll probably never do anything with it because it's not worth the paper it's printed on outside the fundie community.

[alba]

She did drive him to work and did have lunch with him often. However, I get the feeling Derick was fine with it. If he didn't like it he could have easily put an end to it - and Jill would have had to listen because their messed up beliefs don't allow her a real voice in the relationship. It's always possible that Derick (or any Fundie husband) is happy to listen to her opinions and wants her to have a voice... But I don't know if Jill's stunted upbringing would allow her to voice real opposition even if that were the case.

I tend to think her actions were more linked to the fact that she went from a house constantly filled with people to being alone the majority of the day. She strikes me as someone who would struggle a lot with such a sudden change - kind of the opposite of Alyssa Webster, who seems to have really thrived in her quieter married environment. I think Erin had a bit of a tough time transitioning too, but her family seems to be fairly close by and I don't know how far Chad's work is - so I don't think she would have needed to cling to him so much.

Erin also had Clown College and her piano students, so unlike Jill she didn't go from being surrounded by people 24/7 to alone in a (big) house all day.

On a side note, I don't think the McMansion did Jill any favours. A big house like that feels a lot lonelier and emptier than a smaller place like Cherin's. Of course, I'm not saying Jill had trouble coping because she had a big house, but I think it may have compounded her feelings of loneliness.

[nausicaa]

I am confused as to people referring to Ben as educated and insinuating that that adds to his employability. He has an associate's degree (not a trade degree). While I applaud him for going that far, I have always seen those as stepping stones to four year degrees. Is there any sort of job one can get because of an AA rather than just a high school diploma?

I agree that John is much more employable, especially if he has the permits and licenses mentioned above. Yes he works for the family business, but it sounds like HVAC, especially in the FL area, is in high demand, and so he could always find a job with another company if he and Alyssa wanted to break away (BIG "if"). 

I'm always surprised that more Fundie men don't follow the trade route. Being a plumber or electrician doesn't require a four year degree, it pays great, is super secure, and is nice and manly. 

[Kira]

57 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I am confused as to people referring to Ben as educated and insinuating that that adds to his employability. He has an associate's degree (not a trade degree). While I applaud him for going that far, I have always seen those as stepping stones to four year degrees. Is there any sort of job one can get because of an AA rather than just a high school diploma?

I agree that John is much more employable, especially if he has the permits and licenses mentioned above. Yes he works for the family business, but it sounds like HVAC, especially in the FL area, is in high demand, and so he could always find a job with another company if he and Alyssa wanted to break away (BIG "if"). 

I'm always surprised that more Fundie men don't follow the trade route. Being a plumber or electrician doesn't require a four year degree, it pays great, is super secure, and is nice and manly. 

Some FJers said yes, but others disagreed: 

 Ben is also getting takng classes at Moody Bible Institute. My guess is he's  getting a  Bachelor's degree in Theology.

 

John did get a business license  (for a cleaning business?), but I think he said he hasn't decided what to do with it. Ben has some work experience. If he want to be a preacher, I'm sure he could find a side job.

I think Ben and John are even.

[Coconut Flan]

The Webster A/C business is licensed with the state until 2018. 

License: CAC008290

[Kira]

2 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

The Webster A/C business is licensed with the state until 2018. 

License: CAC008290

Thanks. I edited my comment.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

Is there any sort of job one can get because of an AA rather than just a high school diploma?

I spent about 20 years making a good living as a mechanical/piping designer with "only" an AAS degree.

[Melissa1977]

On 17/9/2016 at 7:47 PM, Italiangirl said:

Any news on Tory and Bobby? They are still in the "getting to know you" phase?  Do you think she will be the new Alyssa and married soon or she wait a little bit Like Michael? 

I think Tori said they weren't marrying soon. Maybe she wants to finish her degree. Or maybe they're waiting for Bobby getting a better paid job.

Alyssa married very young but keep in mind she wasn't interested at all in getting a degree, plus she explained how she loved quiet and I suppose she was willing to marry to get away from that noisy messy house.

[nausicaa]

17 hours ago, feministxtian said:

I spent about 20 years making a good living as a mechanical/piping designer with "only" an AAS degree.

But I don't believe Ben has an AAS degree, but rather a general AA degree.

I'm not trying to put down AA degrees or saying people can't make a living with them, I just don't understand how it gives him that much of an edge over others we're discussing. Especially someone like John who has experience, connections, and the necessary licenses in an in demand business.

18 hours ago, Kira said:

John did get a business license  (for a cleaning business?), but I think he said he hasn't decided what to do with it. Ben has some work experience. If he want to be a preacher, I'm sure he could find a side job.

I think Ben and John are even.

I'm sure Ben can find a job if he's willing to look and work for one, but I just don't think he's likely to get one that's going to support a Quiverfull family. Whereas if John played his cards right he just might be able to do it. 

This might be one of those times when I'm out of step with the rest of the board because of living in such a high COL and highly educated area. Some people around here with master's degrees find it difficult to get by. A bachelor's degree is considered just a foot in the door.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, nausicaa said:

But I don't believe Ben has an AAS degree, but rather a general AA degree.

I'm not trying to put down AA degrees or saying people can't make a living with them, I just don't understand how it gives him that much of an edge over others we're discussing. Especially someone like John who has experience, connections, and the necessary licenses in an in demand business.

I'm sure Ben can find a job if he's willing to look and work for one, but I just don't think he's likely to get one that's going to support a Quiverfull family. Whereas if John played his cards right he just might be able to do it. 

This might be one of those times when I'm out of step with the rest of the board because of living in such a high COL and highly educated area. Some people around here with master's degrees find it difficult to get by. A bachelor's degree is considered just a foot in the door.

I think you're right that it depends a lot on the area. Ben currently lives in Arkansas and I don't think it's entirely unrealistic to think he could probably find employment doing something with an Associates out there. And if he studies hard and earns a Bachelors through Moody's that could help as well - even if he doesn't go into Preaching. 

I think John lucked out to a certain extent because the family business is in demand for their area. If he works hard and hones his business skills it could work well in his favor.