Josh Duggar part 12 - Everyone has unclean hands...Go wash!

[SilverBeach]

My ex husband's son was advised to go direct to colonoscopy at 40 since his dad had colon cancer at 49 and black men are the number one demographic for this form of cancer (prostate too).

[Valerie3kids]

My doctor used to tell me that colonoscopies were "nothing". A couple minutes of discomfort and you were done and on your way. I have had four in the last 20 years. My first was not a good time. At all. They second and third they got the meds right and I did fine. The last they did not pay attention to all the meds I take for my fibromyalgia and it was a disaster as I had to come back and get put completely to sleep. But, I digress. All these years, my regular doctor kept up the "no big deal" speech until he had one when he turned 50. Well, boy howdy what a change in tune we have had. He is all drugs and anesthesia and I just chuckle and think  "hurt a lot more than that damn book told you it did eh?"

I don't have a lot of use for doctors who tell you that you are not in pain. Oh really? Since when did you move into my body?

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

My Dad died at 54 from colon cancer.  I had my first colonoscopy at 30 (after his death) and all was clear....  then again at 40 (they found polyps) & every two years since.  They always find polyps.  
I'm due for my 9th screening, and these pain/waking up stories are frightening.  
You guys have my sympathies and I've got fingers crossed for myself. 

[Whoosh]

I think that different people really do just react differently to the anesthesia etc.  I know that I have a terrible time even thinking about going to the dentist and I haven't really even had much work done.  For me (and my sister actually), I have an adverse reaction to the novocaine - it makes my heart race, gives me anxiety AND I can still feel the pain (though I am sure only to a limited degree).  I didn't find out what the problem was until I was well into my 40s and someone finally explained it to my older sister.  So now I have known for 2 years - but I still haven't been back to the dentist even though I need to go.  I promise I will make the call this week!

For me the colonoscopy prep was unpleasant but not anything that can't be tolerated for a good cause.  Then the next morning they gave me something in the prep room and started an IV.  The next thing I recall is waking up in recovery.  If anything bothered me about the whole thing it would be if I didn't know better, I would think they just put me to sleep and wheeled me down the hall.  

Anyway, I agree with Tim-Tom in sending my sympathies to people who have had bad experiences.  I know from my dental experiences that the professionals can be less than understanding and helpful.  

ETA - my thoughts also to @Tim-Tom Biblethumper and everyone else who has lost a loved one to colon cancer.  

[meowmeow19]

15 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I think that different people really do just react differently to the anesthesia etc.  I know that I have a terrible time even thinking about going to the dentist and I haven't really even had much work done.  For me (and my sister actually), I have an adverse reaction to the novocaine - it makes my heart race, gives me anxiety AND I can still feel the pain (though I am sure only to a limited degree).  I didn't find out what the problem was until I was well into my 40s and someone finally explained it to my older sister.  So now I have known for 2 years - but I still haven't been back to the dentist even though I need to go.  I promise I will make the call this week!

For me the colonoscopy prep was unpleasant but not anything that can't be tolerated for a good cause.  Then the next morning they gave me something in the prep room and started an IV.  The next thing I recall is waking up in recovery.  If anything bothered me about the whole thing it would be if I didn't know better, I would think they just put me to sleep and wheeled me down the hall.  

Anyway, I agree with Tim-Tom in sending my sympathies to people who have had bad experiences.  I know from my dental experiences that the professionals can be less than understanding and helpful.  

ETA - my thoughts also to @Tim-Tom Biblethumper and everyone else who has lost a loved one to colon cancer.  

It's pretty incredible how differently people react to anesthesia. Redheads are notorious for needing much more anesthesia than people with blonde/brunette hair color. Just shows you how much genetics play a role and how much medical community is going to change with the advent of cheap and fast genetic testing. Here is a pretty good overview of the redhead v anesthesia thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362956/

[Flyinthesoup]

53 minutes ago, Whoosh said:

I think that different people really do just react differently to the anesthesia etc.  I know that I have a terrible time even thinking about going to the dentist and I haven't really even had much work done.  For me (and my sister actually), I have an adverse reaction to the novocaine - it makes my heart race, gives me anxiety AND I can still feel the pain (though I am sure only to a limited degree).  I didn't find out what the problem was until I was well into my 40s and someone finally explained it to my older sister.  So now I have known for 2 years - but I still haven't been back to the dentist even though I need to go.  I promise I will make the call this week!

For me the colonoscopy prep was unpleasant but not anything that can't be tolerated for a good cause.  Then the next morning they gave me something in the prep room and started an IV.  The next thing I recall is waking up in recovery.  If anything bothered me about the whole thing it would be if I didn't know better, I would think they just put me to sleep and wheeled me down the hall.  

Anyway, I agree with Tim-Tom in sending my sympathies to people who have had bad experiences.  I know from my dental experiences that the professionals can be less than understanding and helpful.  

ETA - my thoughts also to @Tim-Tom Biblethumper and everyone else who has lost a loved one to colon cancer.  

I was going to ask if you know about the ginger gene....it's very real! I see someone else just posted the information...this is me...even to the point the dentist had to send me home without doing the work as he gave me as much medication as he could and I was still not numb!  I hate going to the dentist!

[Kittikatz]

18 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

What country are you in? Here In the USA, we get no such letters, not even at the state level. Thus my question. 

ITA about preventative care, my insurance plan has no deductible or copay for preventative care and I use it. The problem is that more expensive and invasive procedures such as colonoscopies become the norm for screening instead of less expensive and less invasive procedures that are just as effective for low risk populations. Out of control medical costs are a big problem here in the US.

I'm in Canada. We get the letters....

[Whoosh]

1 minute ago, Flyinthesoup said:

I was going to ask if you know about the ginger gene....it's very real! I see someone else just posted the information...this is me...even to the point the dentist had to send me home without doing the work as he gave me as much medication as he could and I was still not numb!  I hate going to the dentist!

On the hair spectrum, my whole family is dark, dark brown.  I think there is just a lot we don't know about proper levels of anesthesia and they tend to go with what works for most (so the extreme outliers on either end wind up either over or under medicated, but it is the best we have to date IMHO).  I am just done with this "trust me you won't feel a thing" novocaine shot business - DONE.  I recently came into a small but significant sum of money and I have decided to allow myself two splurges - my nice new blender for my morning kale smoothies and sedation dentistry.  Woo hoo, right?  

Anyway, I am excited about it all.

[samira_catlover]

FWIW, (generic average Caucasian here, and my chestnut hair is thanks to a beauty parlor operator), but I had a colonoscopy quite some years back, followed by an EDG. (That's there they shove a tube down your throat to get a look at the stomach---yech.)

My GI couldn't understand why she'd loaded in enough meds to drop an elephant---but here's the patient, asking for the eyeglasses back to get a peek at the goings-on!

(Of course, at the time, I was drinking heavily, and didn't warn the poor soul about that, so she had no clue just why I was pretty alert and interested during the scope work.  Nonetheless, it didn't work during the EGD: had to sit on my hands to keep from reflexively ripping that awful tube out.)

All things considered, though, it was wayyyyyy less awful than going to the dentist----but am an awful coward about those scary folk. (*Remembering the Olden Days when you pretty much got cornered in the chair, instead of them working from behind, where you at least feel like you've got an escape route.*)

I'd rather have a colonoscopy every three months, including the preps, rather than see a dentist once a year.

[medimus]

2 hours ago, Kittikatz said:

I'm in Canada. We get the letters....

I'm in a small European country, but am half American. I looked in to moving to the US to practice, but the way it is (or rather isn't) organised puts me off. I hate inefficient, disorganised systems (of all kinds) and that is the very least you can say about how healthcare works in the US.

Colonoscopies never look fun, but can be amusing from the doctor's point of view, as the patiënts often act like they're very drunk under the anaesthetic they use here. Being told you're not in pain is BS. Though for some things distinguishing between pain and discomfort is medical jargon, though rather subjective of course. And discomfort is pain, but not the pain that's being watched for in that particular instance, if that makes any sense at all. (I'm thinking here of abdominal pain when ruling out appendicitis, there's a very particular way patiënts with peritonitis react when palpating the abdomen which is hard to describe).

[Jucifer]

4 hours ago, meowmeow19 said:

It's pretty incredible how differently people react to anesthesia. Redheads are notorious for needing much more anesthesia than people with blonde/brunette hair color. Just shows you how much genetics play a role and how much medical community is going to change with the advent of cheap and fast genetic testing. Here is a pretty good overview of the redhead v anesthesia thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362956/

Strawberry blonde here- lidocaine doesn't work on me.

I've had a doctor say to me "You can't be feeling that!" 

I felt it  :/

Buffered lidocaine seems to work better. I learned that the hard way.

[NeverQuivered]

7 hours ago, meowmeow19 said:

It's pretty incredible how differently people react to anesthesia. Redheads are notorious for needing much more anesthesia than people with blonde/brunette hair color. Just shows you how much genetics play a role and how much medical community is going to change with the advent of cheap and fast genetic testing. Here is a pretty good overview of the redhead v anesthesia thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362956/

I can vouch for this! I'm a redhead and during my first c-section, the anesthesia wore off a few minutes into the surgery. I was already open and exposed and they had to keep going. They said I was just feeling "pressure" and then I described what I was feeling in detail and I looked back at the anesthesiologist who was starting to panic. He added something to my IV, and my son was born, I heard his first cry and passed out for two hours.

[tumblr]

38 minutes ago, NeverQuivered said:

I can vouch for this! I'm a redhead and during my first c-section, the anesthesia wore off a few minutes into the surgery. I was already open and exposed and they had to keep going. They said I was just feeling "pressure" and then I described what I was feeling in detail and I looked back at the anesthesiologist who was starting to panic. He added something to my IV, and my son was born, I heard his first cry and passed out for two hours.

I am a red-ish head. I started crying during an oral surgery I was awake for. I didn't want to speak up and interrupt them but thankfully they noticed and gave me some more anesthesiology, still felt it. They went all the way to the legal limit for a minor (I was 15 at the time) and I still felt some mild pain. I am 5' and often have to double the recommended dose for medicine to work for me, I feel like a drug addict though so I have a study about the redheads and crazy fast metabolism saved on my phone to show medical providers. 

[Flyinthesoup]

1 hour ago, tumblr said:

I am a red-ish head. I started crying during an oral surgery I was awake for. I didn't want to speak up and interrupt them but thankfully they noticed and gave me some more anesthesiology, still felt it. They went all the way to the legal limit for a minor (I was 15 at the time) and I still felt some mild pain. I am 5' and often have to double the recommended dose for medicine to work for me, I feel like a drug addict though so I have a study about the redheads and crazy fast metabolism saved on my phone to show medical providers. 

The studies on this are still not conclusive as to whether or not the drug is metabolizing quickly, or if it's slow to get into the system.  My dentist was very wise.  The time he sent me home because he could numb me, he said to me, "keep watch and see if and when the drug gets into my system and how long it stays".  Low and behold, it did go numb, on my drive home I could feel it sinking in.  It took many, many hours for it to leave my system!  This was actually fascinating to me because I had been under the impression it metabolized in my system, quickly.  There is truth to that side of the equasion as well, as they always have to give me more medication, during procedures. It's as @Whoo 

[tumblr]

1 minute ago, Flyinthesoup said:

The studies on this are still not conclusive as to whether or not the drug is metabolizing quickly, or if it's slow to get into the system.  My dentist was very wise.  The time he sent me home because he could numb me, he said to me, "keep watch and see if and when the drug gets into my system and how long it stays".  Low and behold, it did go numb, on my drive home I could feel it sinking in.  It took many, many hours for it to leave my system!  This was actually fascinating to me because I had been under the impression it metabolized in my system, quickly.  There is truth to that side of the equasion as well, as they always have to give me more medication, during procedures. It's as @Whoo 

I am pretty sure with me it's that a metabolize it quickly... I have lots of experiences with all day medications only lasting me a few hours but your story with the numbing is interesting. 

I just love science so much. This is insanely interesting to me. 

[keen23]

13 minutes ago, tumblr said:

I am pretty sure with me it's that a metabolize it quickly... I have lots of experiences with all day medications only lasting me a few hours but your story with the numbing is interesting. 

I just love science so much. This is insanely interesting to me. 

I'm a blond with blue eyes, and I metabolize Novocain incredibly fast. The numbing just won't take hold until a ridiculous amount has been put in. Last time, my dentist was afraid I'd stop breathing, because he felt he was getting to the limit where my nose would work. Same with the last time I got a spinal block for a c-section- they had to almost overload me so I wouldn't feel pain. However, when I got my wisdom teeth done, they didn't need to use much at all- I went out quickly and woke in no pain. 

[Flyinthesoup]

9 hours ago, Whoosh said:

On the hair spectrum, my whole family is dark, dark brown.  I think there is just a lot we don't know about proper levels of anesthesia and they tend to go with what works for most (so the extreme outliers on either end wind up either over or under medicated, but it is the best we have to date IMHO).  I am just done with this "trust me you won't feel a thing" novocaine shot business - DONE.  I recently came into a small but significant sum of money and I have decided to allow myself two splurges - my nice new blender for my morning kale smoothies and sedation dentistry.  Woo hoo, right?  

Anyway, I am excited about it all.

I have one daughter with dark brown hair and one with blond/brown (it's changing), both have this same reaction.  My thought has been, "they must also have the ginger gene".  While it's noticeable with redheads, you can carry the gene without the expression of it, so I am purely guessing here, but I suspect it's based on the gene, which is not expressed in their haircolour.

Just wanted to let you know, too, the dentists no longer use Novocain, and there are a couple of other drugs they can use, before the chosen drug for numbing, that actually speeds up he effect of the drug into your system.  In other words, one initial drug is administered, followed by the numbing agent of choice.  This made a BIG difference for me.  My dentist, having seen what had happened, was willing to try all kinds of things.  I still get a bit of the heart racing, but the drugs worked, so I feel better about that.

I'm happy for you that you can invest in sedation dentistry.  Please let me know how it goes.  I admit, it scares me to death!   With all the issues I have had with anesthetic, I am afraid I would wake up AND feel pain, and I will be once again, trying hard to do my mental struggling between being calm and "I can do this", with a "GET ME OUT OF HERE" feeling.

I am another one who woke up from a c-section with the horrific pain of burning....either they forgot to give me the drugs or they had to top them off, not sure which.  It was awful!  As I awoke, I told my husband something was wrong with the medication and they quickly gave me drugs....so I'm not positive the drugs wore off, or they forgot to give it to me.

[Whoosh]

25 minutes ago, keen23 said:

I'm a blond with blue eyes, and I metabolize Novocain incredibly fast. The numbing just won't take hold until a ridiculous amount has been put in. Last time, my dentist was afraid I'd stop breathing, because he felt he was getting to the limit where my nose would work. Same with the last time I got a spinal block for a c-section- they had to almost overload me so I wouldn't feel pain. However, when I got my wisdom teeth done, they didn't need to use much at all- I went out quickly and woke in no pain. 

This sounds like me.  When I need a specific area knocked out - disaster ensues.  Seriously, my last trip to the dentist was like something out of a sexually G rated version of American Psycho.  On the rare occasions I have had any kind of full-being sedation, I seem to react in the opposite direction.  In one of my classes one time, we had an assignment where we had to come up with the top 10 things that we thought would be different in 100 years.  So, what widely shared beliefs will be seen as so ludicrous that people will have trouble actually believing that we thought that way.  At the time (somewhere in the 2000s) some of my list toppers were views on sexuality and gender (including marriage equality), views on inferiority based on race, place of national origin, etc, views on environmental issues, and eating meat (and just how we treat animals in general).    Another one is harder to articulate, but along the lines that it is so very hard for most of us to realize that while the general rule tends to work well for most of the population, there are almost always outliers that won't do well if people try to fit them into that mold.  I think in 100 years we will understand far more about how anesthesia works in individuals and some of the views and standards of practice we have today will seem simply ludicrous (but the "norm" will still work well for the majority).  

[Flyinthesoup]

34 minutes ago, tumblr said:

I am pretty sure with me it's that a metabolize it quickly... I have lots of experiences with all day medications only lasting me a few hours but your story with the numbing is interesting. 

I just love science so much. This is insanely interesting to me. 

I love the science, too!  I come from a family of several children and I have a few children, it's fun to discuss these oddities and try to make some sense of them all.  

[ksgranola1]

Quote

 

I hate to interrupt this riveting colonoscopy conversation; I was just wondering if anyone thinks this recent shift to dump Gothard will effect Josh's re-entrance into polite society. Sure they will still be fundies, but might Josh say influence from this really creepy guy was what sent him off on this path of self-destruction? I mean, we don't know what he might have witnessed at all these ATI conferences & camps; etc.

Just sayin'.

[2manyKidzzz]

11 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

I hate to interrupt this riveting colonoscopy conversation; I was just wondering if anyone thinks this recent shift to dump Gothard will effect Josh's re-entrance into polite society. Sure they will still be fundies, but might Josh say influence from this really creepy guy was what sent him off on this path of self-destruction? I mean, we don't know what he might have witnessed at all these ATI conferences & camps; etc.

Just sayin'.

Interesting. Is it Joshley's personality itself, or the  restrictions of GothardLife. He molested at age 14-15 and then married, what 20-21....and went into AM while still in Arkansas. He may have been someone who would have followed this path had he been a Methodist, or maybe, yes, all of this nonsense he was subjected to affected him. The molestations to me are  indicative of wrong thinkin/behavior at a young age. My crystal ball is in storage, so I guess we can't know. 

[Buzzard]

22 minutes ago, ksgranola1 said:

I hate to interrupt this riveting colonoscopy conversation; I was just wondering if anyone thinks this recent shift to dump Gothard will effect Josh's re-entrance into polite society. Sure they will still be fundies, but might Josh say influence from this really creepy guy was what sent him off on this path of self-destruction? I mean, we don't know what he might have witnessed at all these ATI conferences & camps; etc.

Just sayin'.

isnt Jesus Jail a "gothard approved" facility?

[Whoosh]

I personally think that the Josh situation is a combination of nature and nurture and that it is pretty silly to think he was simply born a bad seed that would be bad regardless and it is equally silly to think that everyone raised in that type of environment will act out in the way Josh has.  To me it seems obvious that there are some issues that are unique to Josh and it also seems obvious that he was raised in a dangerous and toxic environment that can well be expected to bring out the worst in many individuals subjected to that type of situation.

That said, at this point it seems like a pretty easy out for these families and for Josh himself to place all the blame with Gothard.  It is pretty easy to say that there is nothing wrong with the lifestyle or the belief system and in fact Gothard preached the ideal, biblical way to exist.  It is pretty easy to say that all the beliefs are perfect and flawless and that the problem is that Gothard wasn't practicing what he preached.  I, personally, think that is a load of horse shit and I think anyone who buys into that story line is deluding themselves.

I have trouble placing responsibility on the kidults that have literally been brainwashed by this cult (in my mind).  That isn't to say that we just cut them breaks and allow them to harm others though.  It means that we call out the behavior for the horrible toxic thing that it is and impose the just and fair consequences that will also protect others from harm while acknowledging that these kidults weren't given much of a choice or a shot (and in fact I think it would take tremendous innate something or other to escape this type of upbringing without displaying the pathologies it encourages).

While I am not one to rush to demonize any of the brainwashed offspring, I am also not impressed by or likely to believe random surface claims of holding beliefs that differ in a meaningful way from what is taught in the cult.  So, I while it may show a bit of spunk to slap on a pair of pants I don't see how that matters if you still fault women for the deviant sexual acts of men.  Similarly, I won't be much impressed if Josh or any other kidult speaks out against Gothard the man (they almost have to at this point).  They were raised in a very restrictive environment and force fed a very toxic set of beliefs.  Until they denounce those core toxic beliefs, I don't much care what they are wearing or what individuals they choose to throw under the bus (be it Gothard or Joshley that gets thrown).

That is just my take on it all and I certainly don't think everyone needs to agree with me.  However, people shouldn't expect me to agree otherwise unless they have a solid, well reasoned argument for why I should view things in a different light.

[Kittikatz]

14 hours ago, meowmeow19 said:

It's pretty incredible how differently people react to anesthesia. Redheads are notorious for needing much more anesthesia than people with blonde/brunette hair color. Just shows you how much genetics play a role and how much medical community is going to change with the advent of cheap and fast genetic testing. Here is a pretty good overview of the redhead v anesthesia thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1362956/

I'm a redhead, and have had a couple of bad experiences with anesthesia, sedation and dental freezing. When it comes to sedation, it seems like I need a lot more than they can give me. Last time I went to the dentist, the freezing had zero effect. Also painkillers barely touch me (t4s have  little effect). Don't know if that's about the hair too, but it is far from fun. 

[PracticeMakesProgress]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1692342/ - Link not broken because, science...

You natural redheads out there have a noted mutation in your MCR1 gene, which is *somehow* related to pain reception (the overall research is mixed as what exactly that role is, but there's a supported connection). The reason why dental work is particularly difficult is that pain experienced when a tooth is prepped is all thermal pain. The nerve receptors in your tooth pulp transmit only painful stimuli, though it's actually thermal stimulation from the thousands of RPMs cutting against tooth structure.

To the people who's hearts race - Epinephrine is a standard additive to local anesthetics to 1) reduce localized bleeding (helps limit post-op soreness/bruising), and 2) prolongs the effect of anesthetic so less may be used overall, because you can reach toxic doses of that stuff, no doubt. If you're really sensitive, ask your dentist about using Mepivacaine/Prilocaine plain (no epinephrine) - just keep in mind, if you're a fast metabolizer, lack of epi means quicker return of sensation.

Also, pay attention to when dental work sucks - was the dentist working on the top teeth? Or bottom? Anesthetizing the bottom teeth is notoriously harder because of anatomy. You have to block a large nerve blindly, you use physical landmarks/feel in order to know you're in the "right" spot. However, as we all know, people are different. If you're overweight or obese, it is actually harder to get you numb because a larger amount of adipose tissue in the tongue and along the ramus can obscure those landmarks used to block. Also, make sure your dentist know's how to do a quality mental nerve block, and ideally, can/is comfortable using an intraosseous system, as adjuncts. The latter will take care of those pesky lower molar teeth that just refuse to go down. It sounds very invasive, but it's actually no more difficult than a local injection (what you typically have for one tooth on the top). 

Lastly, by all means, find a dentist that at the very least can use nitrous oxide, and ideally can use oral/IV sedation. We live in a society much more capable and comfortable with anesthesia, there's no reason dentistry should be any different (it's tooth SURGERY, ya'll). It will cost more money, but if it means you actually take care of your teeth in a timely manner, isn't it worth it? Otherwise, you wait till you're in pain, and trust me, there's not a harder tooth in the world to numb than a hot one that's been festering for years. The mechanism of action of local anesthetics is completely neutralized, and you're going to hate each and every moment, just continuing the vicious cycle.

Take the above with a grain of salt - from a dentist who hates going to the dentist, too.