Josh Duggar part 12 - Everyone has unclean hands...Go wash!

[Bad Wolf]

I didn't know that either. Gypsies would come around selling clothes pegs when I was young. They were made of small branches, and tied at the top with a small band of metal and a nail. My mother had them for years.

[quiverofdoubt]

1 hour ago, FlamingFundie said:

There is no way to know how often any woman menstruates. Even exclusively breastfeeding isn't a guarantee of no period. I EBF and got mine back at 4 months post-partum. I felt fucking (insert another word here...Sorry for the previous one!) because here were all these women around me who said they didn't get their periods back til a year later, 15 months later, NEVER got another til the next pregnancy, etc. And here I was, doing everything "right" (I use the term loosely to clarify my experience here...) by nursing on demand and not giving a pacifier or bottle or even my damned finger to this child.

This is very true. However in Michelle's case she seems super fertile, and most of her kids were born very close together.   And i'm in your boat- ebf and got my first at 2 months postpartum.  But I didn't feel personally comfortable using tampons that close after a vaginal delivery.  I'm just saying that if you're giving your husband all the sex, breastfeeding, and not using protection, and are fertile, odds are you're not going to get as many periods as someone who waits years between kids using bc.

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

You can't 'lose your virginity' by inserting a tampon or riding a horse. You guys are talking about breaking your hymen, which can happen in all sorts of ways. Virginity is a social construct. A hymen is a membrane which partially covers the opening of the vagina, and which can be 'broken' via sexual intercourse, or a variety of other activities, or can remain essentially intact despite sexual intercourse or a variety of other activities.

I thought the poster was being sarcastic about the losing your virginity to horseback riding?  I kind of thought it was common knowledge that hymen=virginity is a super old and outdated belief.  Tampons (horseback riding, bikes etc) don't take virginity just another human.  But i'm not 100% sure all the fundies would know that or believe it. Or they may feel like nothing should be up there till your husband just on principle, even if they know that fact.

which makes me wonder: do they allow the girls to get their regular gyno exams when they hit the correct age? wouldn't a speculum be considered a lot more invasive than a tampon?

  The hymen is a strange fella, and I remember my sex ed teacher as a kid saying it can be broken from something as simple as falling off a bike, and that many of us may have already unknowingly broken ours.

[RabbitKM]

My family is in no way fundie, but we are Hispanic, and my aunt had a thing against my cousin wearing tampons during the early years of her period.  We had to kinda convince my aunt to let my cousin try them to go swimming once.

[Coy Koi]

4 minutes ago, RabbitKM said:

My family is in no way fundie, but we are Hispanic, and my aunt had a thing against my cousin wearing tampons during the early years of her period.  We had to kinda convince my aunt to let my cousin try them to go swimming once.

My mom was very uncomfortable with it at first when I started using them, when I was 14. If I'd asked her permission, she probably would have said no, but she only found out about it a few months later. And by then, she would have had to pry the tampons out of my cold, dead hands, because there was nothing that would ever make me go back to pads. Trying to use pads with a heavy flow is like torture. Although, I guess it's not quite as bad for fundies since they don't have to go to school or work or anything.

[Kjaerringa]

@kittykatz.......Am I the only one who had to google 'zayin'? Thanks for the edification! Thinking of ways to work it into conversation.  Nobody expects little white haired ladies to have an exhaustive vocabulary with which to describe private parts. ;-)

[Kittikatz]

2 hours ago, Kjaerringa said:

 

2 hours ago, Kjaerringa said:

@kittykatz.......Am I the only one who had to google 'zayin'? Thanks for the edification! Thinking of ways to work it into conversation.

 

 

@Kjaerringa sorry for messing up the quote box. My luddite tendencies combined with a cranky tablet have created a muddle. Hebrew and Yiddish are just full of euphemisms for various body parts - it can make conversations quite entertaining

This Haaretz article gives some more fun penis basics with a little context.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.667193

And this is a discussion on the Yiddish equivalent for female genitalia (I love these words ;):

http://jwa.org/blog/schmundie

And a more political discussion of the official Hebrew name for vulva and/or  Vagina (hint: no women were involved in choosing the term designated by the State as the official word - eye roll - )

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.673930

[Paperplate]

I introduced some of my Muslim friends to tampons and after I answered their questions whether 'it goes in the same hole where you have sex' [?? WTF? How many holes do they have down there?] they didn't want to use them because it isn't right to stick anything up there that's not your husband's penis. I tried explaining to them that tampons aren't sexy, but they're not convinced and will stick to their blood diapers. When I later started to us menstrual cups, I didn't even try telling them about it ...

[Kjaerringa]

@Kittikatz......

[jqlgoblue]

It is actually quite common for religious groups to be against tampons. Even though rationally it doesn't take your virginity there are people who think if you don't bleed on your 'wedding night' you weren't a virgin no matter what so others are apt to fall in line because they don't want to be falsely accused of lying.

Also, I am sure none of the Duggar girls are getting OBGYN care before marriage (and as we've seen they aren't a fan of getting much care while pregnant either). It is worth noting that if they aren't having sex then having an annual exam while a prudent thing to do, isn't as necessary as you are much lower risk for nearly everything.

[sawasdee]

Well, we thought that JBoob and M'chelle were protective of Josh, but they ain't got nothing on these parents!

http://mingle2.com/topic/322585

The parents tried to hire a hitman to kill their DIL, and their son's daughter and two stepchildren, to get him out of jail on molestation charges. The son wanted his daughter to be told 'I said I would get you if you told' before she was killed.

I have no words.

 

 

 

 

'

[Hera]

On 2/9/2016 at 5:46 PM, ksgranola1 said:

In regards to Josh coming home to be watched like an ally cat, imagine what it will be like for Anna. If he goes out to get a paper, says he's going to the post office, has a flat tire; she's going to wonder & doubt. That's only human nature. Boy, that would eat my shorts after a while. She's not going to just trust him right off the bat, maybe never. Especially if they move away. In TT, it wouldn't be that hard to check up on where he's been but in a  new town, she won't go asking around.

I definitely agree with this.  I'm not even sure how much checking around she can down in TT, though.  Anna's basically been told to trust in Jesus that Josh won't cheat on her again.  She's supposed to take it on faith that he won't.  He's reformed, and all, dontcha know?   Are suspicion, checking up, and questioning even allowed?  Or is that a derogation of faith? 

And, you know, if the affair was just a one-time by product of some issue Josh was having, I'd believe that he could turn himself around.  Giving him some benefit of the doubt and considering his shit options, I suppose he probably wishes could change and be happy in Gothard.   But, the AM accounts that originate back to the Arkansas days make it painfully obvious that marriage, Jesus-sanctioned sex and the Gothard lifestyle aren't making Josh happy.  Being forced back into that same lifestyle with a smile on his face isn't going to fix that.  

Anna represents the restrictive, repressive, judgmental lifestyle that Josh has struggled with since he was a teenager, if not before.  If they'd gone through real counseling and had learned how to communicate honestly, see each other as equals and build real trust, then maybe they'd have a chance.  But any honesty they could have is tempered by the Ever Present Face of Gothard Via Jim Bob. Josh can't trust that Anna won't run to his parents if something he says isn't in line with Gothard.  Anna knows she has no where to go if she says something Josh doesn't like.  Without the complete ability to trust each other and be equals in this relationship, as opposed to keeper and kept (who is who depends on the situation), there's no hope here.  And, this is something that JB and M just don't get, because no matter how much they espouse this headship bullshit, at the end of the day, they do see each other as equals.  They chose this life together.  It's grossly unfair of them to deny their kids that same opportunity. But, of course, it's not like their kids are actually people to them or anything.  It's disgusting how narcissistic these two are that they cannot even comprehend that the 19(!!!) people that they created are also people in their own right and this one-size-fits all lifestyle might not be a good fit for all of them and the consequences of it not fitting are severe and painful for all involved.  

Josh is going to cheat on Anna again.  And again.  And again.  And, at some point, she's either going to have to address the fact that Gothard's system just isn't working or turn a blind eye.  She will eventually turn a blind eye. What other choice does she have?  And her kids will grow up with a front row seat to what happens when their fundie lifestyle goes horribly awry.  Frankly, I'm betting that one or all of the M kids says "no thanks" to Gothard. 

[FormerlyFundyLite]

16 hours ago, FlamingFundie said:

Ahhh, eek. I had NO idea of the origins, it is just a common word around my area. Thank you for the information, and I will certainly keep that in mind before using the word again. My apologies and deepest gratitude.

"Gypped" is common in my area too, and I used it without thought until I heard somebody say that some one was trying to "jew" them and I was horrified. I put 2 and 2 together and realized that "gypped" is the same thing, so I stopped using it. I don't see any reason why "cheated" couldn't be used instead. No derogatory connotations in that as far as I am aware.

[Derogatory terms used here in an educational/illustrative context only!]

[medimus]

16 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

which makes me wonder: do they allow the girls to get their regular gyno exams when they hit the correct age? wouldn't a speculum be considered a lot more invasive than a tampon?

Why would they be getting regular gyno exams? Except the ones over 25 or if they have symptoms. There is no need. 

I hear this a lot on American sites and I've never understood it. On a site aimed at teenage girls I read an explanation of going to your first gyno appointment and it seemed incredibly odd. So what am I missing in cultural translation? (I am actually part american, just never lived there)

[Hera]

7 minutes ago, medimus said:

Why would they be getting regular gyno exams? Except the ones over 25 or if they have symptoms. There is no need. 

I hear this a lot on American sites and I've never understood it. On a site aimed at teenage girls I read an explanation of going to your first gyno appointment and it seemed incredibly odd. So what am I missing in cultural translation? (I am actually part american, just never lived there)

As I understand it, it is (or used to be) recommended that all women get annual pap smears/gyno exams once a year after they turned 18, regardless of sexual activity, because the exam isn't just for BC and STD screening (not saying that you said it is) and some issues may not reveal symptoms until there is a real problem.  I want to say that in the last few years, there was some noise about turning that into an every 3 year thing, I don't know how that worked out.  I do know that I am required to go once a year if I want to continue to get my BC pills.  

[medimus]

3 minutes ago, Hera said:

As I understand it, it is (or used to be) recommended that all women get annual pap smears/gyno exams once a year after they turned 18, regardless of sexual activity, because the exam isn't just for BC and STD screening (not saying that you said it is) and some issues may not reveal symptoms until there is a real problem.  I want to say that in the last few years, there was some noise about turning that into an every 3 year thing, I don't know how that worked out.  I do know that I am required to go once a year if I want to continue to get my BC pills.  

They've updated it here to once every three years from the age of 25, regardless of sexual activity and you have it done at the GP practice/family doctor's. And there is absolutely no reason to have an internal exam to get brith control (I know it's not up to you), unless you're having an IUD fitted. I'm a GP, hence my interest.

I've also heard (seen on tv shows) that patiënts wear hospital gowns etc during the exam, rather than just getting undressed. That can't be true, is it?

[SilverBeach]

On 2/13/2016 at 4:22 PM, zebra #13 said:

While I don't claim a childhood in fundydom, I was raised Mormon, the eldest of nine kids.  I'm the only escapee.  Love mah sibs, but I see most of them turning in large chunks of thinking/being in exchange for the comfort of the "known."  Conversely, I'm a pirate to them--I love them, and vice versa, but there's so little commonality with most of them that it's hard to keep a conversation going. 

I was 12 or 13 when I knew I should be going, and stayed for almost a decade longer because I knew the journey was going to be tough, and lonely.  And it has been.  But also filled with joy I couldn't have suspected.

So I see maybe one or two of the kids escaping, but no time soon.  And maybe in no obvious way.

You became a social morman before you gathered the strength to leave something you truly didn't believe in. Good for you! I surmise that more than a few people stay in restrictive and controlling organizations for social reasons, because often these groups practice shunning and shunning is social annihilation. Even if those who leave are not formally shunned, relationships are often never the same. 

[caszandra]

1 hour ago, sawasdee said:

Well, we thought that JBoob and M'chelle were protective of Josh, but they ain't got nothing on these parents!

http://mingle2.com/topic/322585

The parents tried to hire a hitman to kill their DIL, and their son's daughter and two stepchildren, to get him out of jail on molestation charges. The son wanted his daughter to be told 'I said I would get you if you told' before she was killed.

I have no words.

 

 

 

 

'

Sick and twisted bastards. 

[sawasdee]

The good news is he's in jail until 2064.

[missegeno]

1 hour ago, medimus said:

1 hour ago, Hera said:

I've also heard (seen on tv shows) that patiënts wear hospital gowns etc during the exam, rather than just getting undressed. That can't be true, is it?

 

I have seen it happen because breast exams are generally part of the deal. Instead of having people lay out naked, they give you something to cover up with. Puritan roots and whatnot, I think a lot of people prefer it that way. How is it done in your country?

[quiverofdoubt]

1 hour ago, medimus said:

Why would they be getting regular gyno exams? Except the ones over 25 or if they have symptoms. There is no need. 

I hear this a lot on American sites and I've never understood it. On a site aimed at teenage girls I read an explanation of going to your first gyno appointment and it seemed incredibly odd. So what am I missing in cultural translation? (I am actually part american, just never lived there)

Maybe they've recently changed standards. When I was a teenager they started pap smears and regular exams at 16, regardless of sexual activity. To check for abnormal cells and the like.  As well as to explain annual self breast exams to start looking for lumps.  They may have raised that age up a bit in the last decade and half, I'm not sure.  It used to be a once a year thing, now it's every 3 UNLESS you've had an abnormal test in the past.  And yes, gowns. Sometimes full body, sometimes just half your body, depending on the doctors office and the nature of the appointment.  

You can always turn down any screening or medical procedure (unless you are not currently conscious) so you can always so no to the internal exam. But my doctors wanted it whether or not I was sexually active to start checking for precancerous cells, etc.  I think 16 was an old standard, and may have been based on the old average onset of first menses. But the average age of first menses has moved up quite a bit in the last years, and our tests have also improved.

[medimus]

Spoiler

 

Generally, I just tell them they'll need a vaginal exam for whatever and tell them to take their bottoms off, which they do while I set up what I need. So they sit on the table naked from the waist down.

If I need to do a breast exam I have them take off everyting on top. I'd usually let them do half at a time though, I need to change my set up in between anyway.

[missegeno]

Spoiler  

If I need to do a breast exam I have them take off everyting on top. I'd usually let them do half at a time though, I need to change my set up in between anyway.

That sounds like a much simpler and less awkward option. I wish the US did that! I bet there was some lawsuit in the past that made everyone switch to hospital gowns.

[Kjaerringa]

No lawsuit, that I am aware of. It's so the patient is viewed as a person, not a body. Back in the dark ages, when the dawn of feminism arose, people became  more aware of the feelings of  vulnerability of a naked woman vs. the authoritative, mostly male, doc, and many dreaded the visits...so didn't go. This compromises  health, and they tried to make the experience more comfortable for the patient. So hospital gowns, 'opened in the front, please'....like a bathrobe. Warming the speculum before using it. Explaining what was being done, and why. And many docs use a paper sheet to cover your nether regions, too. My OB always meets a new patient clothed, first....then sends them to an exam room. After the exam, and there is always a nurse present, as well, you dress and head to his office to go over everything. You meet as partners in your health care, that way. Much better than earlier.....when laboring women were also routinely given enemas, and shaved.

[imokit]

6 hours ago, Hera said:

Josh is going to cheat on Anna again.  And again.  And again.  And, at some point, she's either going to have to address the fact that Gothard's system just isn't working or turn a blind eye.  She will eventually turn a blind eye. What other choice does she have?  And her kids will grow up with a front row seat to what happens when their fundie lifestyle goes horribly awry.  Frankly, I'm betting that one or all of the M kids says "no thanks" to Gothard. 

That depends on how badly they break the girls.  Little girls who see their daddy cheating, mummy being subsmissive and are being actively taught to be submissive by their family, may well be too broken to leave Gothard, even they marry a Joshly person.

Likewise if its being brushed off/things aren't too bad economically or socially, and Daddy can get away with those mistakes, then the boys could think cheating is bad but not too bad and stay follow daddy's path.

Those kids may break free and leave, but they may become the most broken of them all.  It could go either way. 

[violynn]

1 hour ago, missegeno said:

That sounds like a much simpler and less awkward option. I wish the US did that! I bet there was some lawsuit in the past that made everyone switch to hospital gowns.

I've always been given a paper gown that opens in the front and a sheet to drape across my stomach and thighs during the yearly pap exams.  My first was in the early 1980's.  The gown stays closed until the breast exam, the sheet is adjusted when it is time to 'scoot down'.  I am in the US.