Bates Family Part 8

[karen77]

I think another big difference between Gil and JB is that the married kids have all moved away or at least two of them, where, with the Duggars, other than Josh (although he still bought a house back home before the first scandal), all live nearby. I don't count the Dillards either, only because they did stay nearby, and will likely be back soon. They aren't setting up a full time life elsewhere with no intentions of moving back to Springdale area.

[singsingsing]

There are four sets of married Bates couples: Zach and Whitney, Michael and Brandon, Erin and Chad, and Alyssa and John. Of these couples, two (Michael & Brandon and Alyssa & John) don't live nearby.

There are three sets of married Duggar couples: Josh and Anna, Jill and Derick, and Jessa and Ben. Of these three couples, two (Josh & Anna and Jill & Derick) have lived or do live far away. As far as we know, Jill and Derick are still in Central America, and we have no idea what their long term plans are. Anna only returned from D.C. because of the scandal. 

I'd say they're pretty even. Jessa and Jill also both married outside of ATI, whereas every single Bates so far except for Zach has married within the cult.

[just...sare]

12 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I know that we (quite rightly) talk a lot about the impact this extremely patriarchal way of life has on the romantic and sexual relationships of women who are part of it, but I do think it's worth noting that it's a lot of pressure for men as well. They have to be big strong breadwinners (but only in a Godly industry aka working for ol' Billy the Perv or Jim Boob) and provide for child after child, most likely while married to a woman they barely knew before getting engaged (and that woman has been trained all her life to see you -- the man -- as her God-given soulmate, even if she barely knows you). Want to marry someone you love? Too bad, you're marrying this fundie girl your parents picked out for you (or her parents shoved in front of you). Don't want to have sex all the time and then provide for the resulting children? You're messing with God's plan! Gay? Hide that shit and enter a loveless marriage, spending your days feeling guilty for lying to her and to yourself. You could pull a John-David and just quietly live as a bachelor, but it's hard to pull that off.

There are plenty of guys who see how they benefit from Gothard's cult and perversely enjoy the combination of control over women and the knowledge that saying Jeebus forgave you pretty much gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want, but I'd hazard that there are also plenty of guys who didn't choose their lives in the Gothard cult and are forced/coerced/pressured into marriages they didn't really want/were ready for with women they don't really know, and then are expected to have enough money to care for a dozen children and be sexually virile enough to make that many children. (I think Josh very neatly shows both sides of this -- I do think that he was very likely pressured to marry Anna when he didn't really know or love her, I think he very clearly didn't want tons of children like she did yet he was expected to give her babies and then pay for them, but he's also a complete scumbag who took advantage of his place in the social order of Gothardism to hurt and degrade women, and the pressures and expectations on him don't in any way excuse his actions)

It's tough because there are so many different "types" of these fundie guys - and I have only really seen the Bateseseseses and Duggars - but it's like there are the John David and Zach Bates types (just keep your head down, work hard, nobody has to know what you really think or feel, just smile for the cameras - and I do think they're quite similar despite JD remaining single thus far, and Zach being married with children). There's Josh and TFDW, who have their own agendas; Ben and Derick, who were idiot enough to want this life and marry into it; and Chad and Brandon who just seem like sweet guys who got a shitty lot in life by being born into a cult and having to take on all these responsibilities whether they're ready or not, whether it's what they want or not, whether they're capable or not. I guess they just have to make the best of it - which they're more likely to do than the Josh/TFDW type. I think some of the middle Duggar boys (Josiah, the twins) fall into this category as well.

13 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Yes!  She doth protest wayyyyyy too much with all the "I would never let on that I was interested in him because only wanton  hussies like my sister Erin would do that."

I know I may be off base but I get a definite catty vibe going on between the three oldest Bates girls.  

Haha, I hadn't noticed that kind of cattiness really, maybe because it's not something I have a lot of experience with. I think there's definitely tension between Erin and Alyssa, but they seem to have such different personalities that it's not unexpected. Michaela I haven't noticed getting involved with that, but I haven't seen the last few episodes, either. (I thought Alyssa showing up clearly pregnant without warning Erin first was careless at best, heartless at worst. It's not like she didn't know about Erin's struggles).

[19 cats and counting]

Of the spouses of the Duggar/Bates kids, only Derrick and Whitney were local.  Anna, Chad, John, Ben, and Brandon were from out of their spouse's area.  Traditionally, the wife would be the one to uproot, and only Anna has moved out of state upon marriage.  Chad stayed in TN so Erin could finish school, and presumably he's established roots there (I can't see Erin moving far from family).   

Ben gave up any trace of life he had back home to become his FIL's lawn boy/bitch.  I would love nothing more than for him to return to whatever job he had back home and take Jessa and the Spurge with him.  

Alyssa and Michael both uprooted their lives to move where their husbands had established jobs.  And while GIl and Kelly probably miss them, they understand that their husbands have to provide for them.  I wonder what it would have been like if Ben kept his job at home and actually provided for his wife and son without counting on reality TV income.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 minute ago, 19 cats and counting said:

Of the spouses of the Duggar/Bates kids, only Derrick and Whitney were local.  Anna, Chad, John, Ben, and Brandon were from out of their spouse's area.  Traditionally, the wife would be the one to uproot, and only Anna has moved out of state upon marriage.  Chad stayed in TN so Erin could finish school, and presumably he's established roots there (I can't see Erin moving far from family).   

Ben gave up any trace of life he had back home to become his FIL's lawn boy/bitch.  I would love nothing more than for him to return to whatever job he had back home and take Jessa and the Spurge with him.  

Alyssa and Michael both uprooted their lives to move where their husbands had established jobs.  And while GIl and Kelly probably miss them, they understand that their husbands have to provide for them.  I wonder what it would have been like if Ben kept his job at home and actually provided for his wife and son without counting on reality TV income.

I think we'll see Donald Trump apologizing for his racist views, pigs taking to the skies, hell getting a bit chilly, the Kardashians retiring from public life to live quietly and simply in the countryside, Quentin Tarantino directing a children's film, and a cure for the common cold before we see that.

[nickelodeon]

I like Michael's twitterpated love story better than the sterile, loveless tales that start like "I found her totally forgettable and didn't even take notice of her at first" that so many of these kids tell (SHOUT OUT to Joseph Maxwell and Jill Duggawugga.) The Boyer girl who got engaged recently admitted that she might have "wondered if he was the one" when she first met her fiance, but she hastily assures us it was only one time! It never happened again! Her feelings for him were entirely sisterly and founded on admiration for his Focused Life Goals! Noooo attraction here, nosirree bob!

[just...sare]

22 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

I like Michael's twitterpated love story better than the sterile, loveless tales that start like "I found her totally forgettable and didn't even take notice of her at first" that so many of these kids tell (SHOUT OUT to Joseph Maxwell and Jill Duggawugga.) The Boyer girl who got engaged recently admitted that she might have "wondered if he was the one" when she first met her fiance, but she hastily assures us it was only one time! It never happened again! Her feelings for him were entirely sisterly and founded on admiration for his Focused Life Goals! Noooo attraction here, nosirree bob!

I agree that her infatuation is better than an exaggerated pretending not to notice, but unfortunately, Michaela's head-over-heels tale is met with Brandon's "which girl?" reaction.

[QuiverDance]

15 minutes ago, just...sare said:

I agree that her infatuation is better than an exaggerated pretending not to notice, but unfortunately, Michaela's head-over-heels tale is met with Brandon's "which girl?" reaction.

YES!  I would seriously die a thousand deaths if that was the tale my husband/lover/whathaveyou told about noticing me!  

Yeah... I was pretty underwhelmed at first.  But then Jesus told me it was time to get married, and well.... she was there and my parents were into the idea, and so were hers.

[just...sare]

3 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

YES!  I would seriously die a thousand deaths if that was the tale my husband/lover/whathaveyou told about noticing me!  

Yeah... I was pretty underwhelmed at first.  But then Jesus told me it was time to get married, and well.... she was there and my parents were into the idea, and so were hers.

Right? It's not like it's something he's saying in private to her. "I'm so glad that after I was stupid enough not to notice you, God pointed me in the right direction." That would be better, but at least still private. But no, he's PUBLICALLY saying he didn't notice her, then didn't go after her even after he did notice her, until Jesus. (Or, strictly speaking, his sister. But that was probably Jesus too. The Jesus who knows he was really looking at Michaela's brothers.)

[Pretzel]

38 minutes ago, just...sare said:

I agree that her infatuation is better than an exaggerated pretending not to notice, but unfortunately, Michaela's head-over-heels tale is met with Brandon's "which girl?" reaction.

I don't get creeper vibe from Brandon. Just a vibe that tells me he knows exactly what he wants (Michael) and what he doesn't want (TV circus/involvement in the Gil and Kelly's dog&pony show). From his testimony I got the impression that he does not have too much self-esteem and therefore didn't think he was anywhere close to being a total hotty who can have any fundie princess he wants. It sounded more like "ok, I accepted that I might just not get married. And then I met HER, I liked her and she even liked ME back". Those fundies are taught from childhood that they're sinners, have no worth, that their life depends on God's grace, that every nice thing happening to them must be due to God's grace etc. And then Brandon meets this modest and shy girl Michael, who suddenly doesn't care about being in the limelight she just cares about him and shows so much affection. He might have doubted he even deserved it and it might even make him a little uncomfortable. 

I don't know how people get the idea that he's gay? Apart from it not being our business, unless he comes out and declares otherwise I'm going to assume he's straight,loves Michael and wanted to marry her. 

[Thorns]

That...was a lot of exclamation marks, and a lot of Jesus. 

One was very "OMG, totes boy!", and the other was almost apologetic in its "marriage, maybe, Jesus?"

[Georgiana]

I get the feeling it is seen as better in these circles to not notice your future spouse right away.

I think they associate "love at first sight" as being too secular/lustful, and like to stress that they didn't notice the person until GOD pointed them in that direction.  Plus, it makes the individual seem more "pure" and not "trying" to get a spouse.

The one thing they do get right, in my opinion, is stressing the value of the person over their looks.  They are always attracted to the person after they learn who they get to know them, as opposed to being attracted to their looks from across the room.  Maybe it's just me, but I prefer Brandon's slow love as he got to know Michael than her instant smitten (which sounds to me more like a schoolgirl crush).  I'd be creeped out if someone fell in love with me after seeing me walk with my grandma from afar!

[QuiverDance]

9 minutes ago, Thorns said:

That...was a lot of exclamation marks, and a lot of Jesus. 

One was very "OMG, totes boy!", and the other was almost apologetic in its "marriage, maybe, Jesus?"

ZOMG! Right????  Michaella, use a period at least every other sentence, so we don't feel like you are SHOUTING AT US!

[Thorns]

1 minute ago, QuiverDance said:

ZOMG! Right????  Michaella, use a period at least every other sentence, so we don't feel like you are SHOUTING AT US!

But she is so happy! Because, Jesus and Brandon and marriage! And purposed to be very pure, with no sin (did she mention desire in there somewere? I actually think she did), and JESUS MADE EVERYTHING RIGHT!

[QuiverDance]

It's sad to me, a testament to her immaturity (despite being in her mid twenties) and lack of a clue about anything other than Jesus! and Purity!  I find her kind of insufferable and holier than thou, but in her defense, she is clearly just trying to be the best example possible of the type of young woman she was trained to be.  

[Diana]

14 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I get the feeling it is seen as better in these circles to not notice your future spouse right away.

I think they associate "love at first sight" as being too secular/lustful, and like to stress that they didn't notice the person until GOD pointed them in that direction.  Plus, it makes the individual seem more "pure" and not "trying" to get a spouse.

The one thing they do get right, in my opinion, is stressing the value of the person over their looks.  They are always attracted to the person after they learn who they get to know them, as opposed to being attracted to their looks from across the room.  Maybe it's just me, but I prefer Brandon's slow love as he got to know Michael than her instant smitten (which sounds to me more like a schoolgirl crush).  I'd be creeped out if someone fell in love with me after seeing me walk with my grandma from afar!

Makes sense because for them its forbidden to fall in love before being engaged since thats giving a piece of their hearts and all that and only should be done once in their life to their husbands, so even if they eventually married that person they can not recognize they had feelings before the engagement.

I also like the idea of giving value to the person over the looks, however i dont see it being something real, all the cute/handsome guys are dating beautiful girls and the other way around, just like anybody else. They just pretend to be different but they are not. When one of those guys ask to the father permission to court a girl what he knows about her personality? not much really only superficial stuff since they couldnt never been alone before, its obvious they are much influenced by the looks and a physical appeal.

[karen77]

39 minutes ago, Georgiana said:

I get the feeling it is seen as better in these circles to not notice your future spouse right away.

I think they associate "love at first sight" as being too secular/lustful, and like to stress that they didn't notice the person until GOD pointed them in that direction.  Plus, it makes the individual seem more "pure" and not "trying" to get a spouse.

The one thing they do get right, in my opinion, is stressing the value of the person over their looks.  They are always attracted to the person after they learn who they get to know them, as opposed to being attracted to their looks from across the room.  Maybe it's just me, but I prefer Brandon's slow love as he got to know Michael than her instant smitten (which sounds to me more like a schoolgirl crush).  I'd be creeped out if someone fell in love with me after seeing me walk with my grandma from afar!

It probably is, then it can be seen as Jesus bringing you together, vs your own attraction/hormones/wants, etc.

[nokidsmom]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

I don't get creeper vibe from Brandon. Just a vibe that tells me he knows exactly what he wants (Michael) and what he doesn't want (TV circus/involvement in the Gil and Kelly's dog&pony show). From his testimony I got the impression that he does not have too much self-esteem and therefore didn't think he was anywhere close to being a total hotty who can have any fundie princess he wants. It sounded more like "ok, I accepted that I might just not get married. And then I met HER, I liked her and she even liked ME back". Those fundies are taught from childhood that they're sinners, have no worth, that their life depends on God's grace, that every nice thing happening to them must be due to God's grace etc. And then Brandon meets this modest and shy girl Michael, who suddenly doesn't care about being in the limelight she just cares about him and shows so much affection. He might have doubted he even deserved it and it might even make him a little uncomfortable. 

I don't know how people get the idea that he's gay? Apart from it not being our business, unless he comes out and declares otherwise I'm going to assume he's straight,loves Michael and wanted to marry her. 

I don't understand this idea he is gay.  Really??   Same thing with DW.    Agree that until someone comes out and states he/she is gay, it's not for anyone else to determine no matter how many "vibes" one gets or how much it pings someone's "gaydar".   

Frankly Brandon just strikes me as someone low-key and quiet.  Yes, Michael is head over heels but just because he's quieter doesn't mean he loves her less.   And tbh, if he doesn't want to be involved too much in the Bateseses dog and pony show, good for him.  I think he and Michael with be better off not giving up their privacy and it appears that Michael is someone who is likely to be on board with this.  

[Dandruff]

55 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

It's sad to me, a testament to her immaturity (despite being in her mid twenties) and lack of a clue about anything other than Jesus! and Purity!  I find her kind of insufferable and holier than thou, but in her defense, she is clearly just trying to be the best example possible of the type of young woman she was trained to be.  

I agree, though I find her gushing about Brandon - apparently without any hint of self-consciousness - almost embarrassing to watch.

The two seem to be a good match.  They're both as hard-core fundie as their families have produced and appear to genuinely care for each other.

[princessmahina]

When I read Michael's story, I wondered fleetingly if the forward girls who lured boys into relationships could refer to Zach's ex- maybe they think she lured Zach into a courtship, then broke his heart.

 

Oh, and count me in as another who prefers Brandon's story over Michael's. I don't get the feeling that he isn't into her at all. I'm another who thinks he probably as low self esteem. Just look at this quote: "In the course of our conversation, she asked me if I had any one I was praying about pursuing. I gave her an honest answer, “No.” She seemed like she didn’t believe me, so I asked her what she was thinking. Her answer shocked me: “If you don’t notice Michaela Bates you’re blind as a bat!” I gave the shocked reply, “I could never do that to a girl like her! She’s amazing!”"

I get the feeling that he liked her, but didn't think he had a chance, so he didn't pursue it for awhile.

[MissBitters]

4 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Yes!  She doth protest wayyyyyy too much with all the "I would never let on that I was interested in him because only wanton  hussies like my sister Erin would do that."

I know I may be off base but I get a definite catty vibe going on between the three oldest Bates girls.  

I was a little surprised when Erin admitted she was hot for Chad as soon as she met him. There wasn't much talk about praying to Jesus for him lay it on Chad's heart to notice her. It surprised me because Erin always seemed to be on the same perfect ATI girl boat as Michael. I'm kind of amused by the cattiness.

[Dandruff]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Bates and Duggar girls had their eye on some fundie hunk, only to have him select one of her sisters or someone in the other family.  Must be a fine line between being the perfect fundie girl who doesn't chase men and feeling the need to demurely get a guy's attention before he goes for someone else.

I've always had the feeling, a persistent hunch, that Jana wanted Chad.  No way of knowing, of course.

[Exjw2015deed]

37 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Bates and Duggar girls had their eye on some fundie hunk, only to have him select one of her sisters or someone in the other family.  Must be a fine line between being the perfect fundie girl who doesn't chase men and feeling the need to demurely get a guy's attention before he goes for someone else.

I've always had the feeling, a persistent hunch, that Jana wanted Chad.  No way of knowing, of course.

I don't know why I thought the same thing too. Like she prayed for him and just accepted it as gods will. I don't have any evidence to this speculation whatsoever. But I doubt Erin would be petty enough to have Jana help her get ready for the wedding and pray with her before she goes inside. So I'm guessing Jana has the hots for someone and praying for him like Michael and prissy did. 

I wonder who is going to land the guy who is always with Ashley. I don't remember his name but his sister looks like Michael and was in Jessas wedding. 

[socalrules]

I think the Duggar girls will have problems finding husbands in fundy land, not because of Josh's multiple actions, but because of Jim Bob. I think many men would be turned off if the only way to marry a girl is to agree to turn your life, and the life of your family over, over to her father. Any guy worth anything is going to run in the opposite direction. Who wants their father-in-law to be the head of their own household? Why go through all that for one of the Duggar girls, whom you likely barely know and won't really get to know until after you get married? Then you are stuck. It's not worth it. 

[19 cats and counting]

13 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I think the Duggar girls will have problems finding husbands in fundy land, not because of Josh's multiple actions, but because of Jim Bob. I think many men would be turned off if the only way to marry a girl is to agree to turn your life, and the life of your family over, over to her father. Any guy worth anything is going to run in the opposite direction. Who wants their father-in-law to be the head of their own household? Why go through all that for one of the Duggar girls, whom you likely barely know and won't really get to know until after you get married? Then you are stuck. It's not worth it. 

I think you are onto something.   I think the combination of Joshgate 1.0 and Jim Bob (and his controlling actions) make them toxic/damaged goods in ATI circles.  The last time a Duggar married ATI, they were far less well-known and the Kellers were not exactly ATI royalty (I think the Duggars elevated them).   I just don't think the girls were getting many suitors within ATI (hence Jill and Jessa marrying out of it) because of their reputation.

That said, there's a big 'Watch this space' with Joy.  Something tells me she'll end up marrying a Bates boy (Lawson or Trace) or at least pursuing one.  Whether JB lets her go or not is the $10,000 question.