Jessa, Ben & Spurgeon - Those Smug Seewalds Part 2

[quiverofdoubt]

6 hours ago, Fundie Bunny said:

My paternal grandmother had a still-birth before having her 7 children. My maternal grandmother had a miscarriage before she had her 4 children (i think the miscarriage was a late term one). My aunt had 2 miscarriages before she had her 4 children and a third one after her youngest. Other aunt had an ectopic pregnancy between her two children, and other aunt, before her two children. My own mother had another miscarriage before i was born.

What i wanted to say is that there is hope. A woman's first pregnancy being miscarried is really not that uncommon. And most of them end up succesfully having healthy children. Always stay positive 

My first pregnancy was textbook and healthy. Perfectly healthy baby. Then I had a pulmonary embolism 2 months post partum.  It took a long time to try again because of that. Then when we were both finally ready, I got pregnant right away, only to have an ectopic pregnancy.  I am 27 weeks right now with my 3rd pregnancy, and while I *know* cognitively that baby and mommy are super healthy and doing what we need to to prevent another clot situation, that fear and paranoia is till there. Especially in the beginning. After a loss, no matter what birth order it was, you know cognitively that you can go on to have perfectly healthy pregnancies, but that previous loss robs you of the innocence of that first pregnancy. Because you know first hand how wrong things can go.  I think that's what I mean to say.  I know on  an intellectual level what you're saying, but when you get that first positive stick after your m/s, the joy is heavily laden with fear and what if.

[PennySycamore]

I know with my last pregnancy I couldn't relax until I passed 26 weeks.  My previous baby had been born at 26 weeks and I did not want to face what we had been through with Katherine again.  

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, missegeno said:

Just rewatched this whole episode twice (just to be sure).

The closest thing she says is that she won't let him pick her up until she loses the baby weight. Nothing about photos.

"I am really self-conscious about my weight! Can we not pick me up?...He's not allowed to pick me up until I lose all my baby weight... I don't want him to like throw his back out or something, y'know. I mean, you're strong, but the mirror don't lie and neither does the scale"

Moments later, she seems to be fine with the fact that her pregnancy photos show her belly button popped out. She shouldn't be upset about it, and it doesn't mean much in and of itself. But its a common insecurity and I could see it coming up if her baby-ravaged body being photographed was that much of an issue. You might be right (we never really know), but I don't see it as significant in the slightest.

 

Mirror and scale- 

She isn't liking what she's seeing, which is totally her prerogative.

Like I said, I think she was ill prepared for the "after" postpartum reality.

 

 

[missegeno]

Oh, I agree that she's probably unprepared for all the postpartum body changes, as is the case for many women. I never thought that she was comfortable with the new body.

I just don't see any significance in the lack of photos of her holding Spurgeon. There are almost certainly a lot of factors at play there. It tells me nothing about which ones are primary.

[nst]

2 minutes ago, missegeno said:

Oh, I agree that she's probably unprepared for all the postpartum body changes, as is the case for many women. I never thought that she was comfortable with the new body.

I just don't see any significance in the lack of photos of her holding Spurgeon. There are almost certainly a lot of factors at play there. It tells me nothing about which ones are primary.

why can't someone agree with me

tell me some legitimate factors because I think they are all wrong 

I am a little pissed I don't' have 80 grand lying around 

[Chickenbutt]

Isn't it interesting that if she posts everyday, we bitch that she should be working/taking care of her child/cleaning house/or doing whatever various people think she should be doing, but if she doesn't post everyday we think that she may have body issues/no bonding with her child/or whatever various people think of her social media silence.

I want to think that she is loving her child, staring at him with unabashed joy and cuddling him way to much to be on her phone.

Hmmmmm, forgot who I was talking about here. Sorry!

[OnceUponATime]

22 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

I want to think that she is loving her child, staring at him with unabashed joy and cuddling him way to much to be on her phone.

Every time one of the Duggars go social media silent (or only do tbt-like photos) I secretly rejoice that they may have discovered the delightful thing called privacy and decided to fully embrace it.

[twinmama]

16 hours ago, quiverofdoubt said:

I'm so sorry for your loss. Please take the time time to heal and process. I'm still dealing with the repercussions of mine, over a year ago. (ectopic).  

The reverse can also be true in terms of announcing: one of my friends announced a pregnancy early, only to lose it. Despite announcing the loss, it took months for everyone in all her circles and the gossip chains to find out.  

My theory on pregnancy announcing is that I told the people whose support I would want if something went wrong early on. So my parents, my best friend and that was it. There was no way I wanted to put it on Facebook at 5 weeks, then post about a loss at 6. Of course, loss can happen at any time so it is really just playing odds whenever you do it. I can't understand judging someone for announcing early though!!! Who cares?

[quiverofdoubt]

Just now, twinmama said:

My theory on pregnancy announcing is that I told the people whose support I would want if something went wrong early on. So my parents, my best friend and that was it. There was no way I wanted to put it on Facebook at 5 weeks, then post about a loss at 6. Of course, loss can happen at any time so it is really just playing odds whenever you do it. I can't understand judging someone for announcing early though!!! Who cares?

I did the same- told close friends early one.  My ectopic was diagnosed in the sixth week, i started bleeding at 5. So I had some support, but didn't have to make a big announcement or deal with people who might be insensitive.

I hope I didn't come off as judgemental of people who announce early! I don't like having any sort of rule that mandates when you "should" announce. It's up to each individual and will vary by pregnancy.  I just wanted to give possible downsides of making a big announcement very early on. There are downsides to announcing early or late. 

[twinmama]

@quiverofdoubt Totally didn't think you were judging, no worries.

[Georgiana]

I personally don't think it's wrong, odd, or weird if Jessa is uncomfortable with her postpartum body.  A lot of my friends have been uncomfortable with their bodies postpartum for a time.  Like any sudden change to a body, some people will adjust quickly and easily....and for others it will take a lot more time to feel comfortable in their new body.  There's a real feeling in society that everything related to pregnancy and postpartum and baby MUST be considered absolutely freakin' magical by the mother, or else she's selfish or vain or any number of other negative things. But really, there is nothing wrong with finding pregnancy awful, having issues with your body postpartum, or hating the stretch marks.  Some women do.   

It's also very possible that Jessa's issues are more than just a few extra pounds.  Pregnancy (especially with a big baby) has the potential to really damage a woman's body. My friend had no issues with her body after the first 2, but she carried (big) baby 3 differently which caused muscle separation in her abdomen and is really uncomfortable with her body right now because of that.  She didn't suddenly become vain after #3, it's just that her body sustained a lot more long-term damage from that pregnancy than with the first two.  

 

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, missegeno said:

Oh, I agree that she's probably unprepared for all the postpartum body changes, as is the case for many women. I never thought that she was comfortable with the new body.

I just don't see any significance in the lack of photos of her holding Spurgeon. There are almost certainly a lot of factors at play there. It tells me nothing about which ones are primary.

I find in odd in the context of her life, how she was parented and the strict gender guidelines set forth by Gothardism.

Maybe I'm the only one who finds it strange that women whose main function/goal per their faith tenets, tenets that they constantly reference, are motherhood, sexual gratification of the spouse and homemaking, seem to, beyond procreation, have limited interest or skills in those strict goals areas.

It's the who that is important here.

Motherhood is center in her cult- many healthy first time moms cannot get enough of their babies.

For women who have nothing else per their beliefs, I would think the draw would be even stronger.

 

[missegeno]

Why does her not posting these photos mean that she's not as enamored with her baby as any mother would be? She may be mothering and bonding with him instead of taking selfies. Wouldn't that be good?

 

I am not disagreeing about the idea that she is probably not the happiest with her postpartum body. I am not disagreeing that the lack of depth in domestic areas among the J'slaves is odd given that domesticity is the foundation for their lives. What I disagree about is what we can read from the lack of pictures showing Jessa holding her son.

 

The lack of pictures cannot tell us a damn thing about how she spends her time with Spurge, other than that it's not spent posting selfies to instagram. There is no reason to conclude that motherhood isn't the center of her life and that the draw to her baby isn't strong. If she was posting constantly, people would think she still had IG as the center of her life instead of motherhood. Either way, we only get snippets, and limited information can be gleaned from those snippets. This particular snippet, imo, tells us so little as to be inconsequential.

 

Say you had an experiment where you combine two chemicals to determine if chemical A and B will change color when combined. When combined, they turn red. This experiment only tells you that they turn red in the given conditions. It does not tell you what kind of chemical reactions underlie the red color. It does not tell you what conditions would not yield the red color. It only tells you that in this case, they turned red. A background in chemistry can offer some insights into the answers to the other questions, but those answers require their own evidence. I see the same thing here. We can use our knowledge of the Duggars to hypothesize about what might underlie a given finding. But the lack of photos only shows that the chemicals turned red. It doesn't tell us why. And in this case, there are so many confounding factors that even hypothesizing from it is a dicey game.

[nst]

4 minutes ago, missegeno said:

Why does her not posting these photos mean that she's not as enamored with her baby as any mother would be? She may be mothering and bonding with him instead of taking selfies. Wouldn't that be good?

The lack of pictures cannot tell us a damn thing about how she spends her time with Spurge, other than that it's not spent posting selfies to instagram. There is no reason to conclude that motherhood isn't the center of her life and that the draw to her baby isn't strong. If she was posting constantly, people would think she still had IG as the center of her life instead of motherhood. In truth, we only get snippets. This particular snippet, imo, is completely meaningless from where we sit.

i am not saying she is not enamored of spud - she clearly is - she talks to him - posts videos of him - posts endless pictures of him with and without people holding him - you just never see her with HIM - you see others holding him or him there but not holding and sharing a picture- it's a calculation pure and simple. and yes I do think it's control on her part. 

i never said motherhood is not the centre - i think it is the epi centre - it's what she was trained to do plain and simple and see to excel it so far. 

i could go on all day

 

[missegeno]

18 minutes ago, nst said:

i am not saying she is not enamored of spud - she clearly is - she talks to him - posts videos of him - posts endless pictures of him with and without people holding him - you just never see her with HIM - you see others holding him or him there but not holding and sharing a picture- it's a calculation pure and simple. and yes I do think it's control on her part. 

i never said motherhood is not the centre - i think it is the epi centre - it's what she was trained to do plain and simple and see to excel it so far. 

i could go on all day

 

heh. so could I.

 

I was actually directly referencing @SassyPants above me, but looking back I see that I just made a reply following her statement instead of actually quoting her. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth.

 

It could very well be a calculated control move. I wouldn't be surprised if it is and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. That's just one hypothesis of many. My main point was that a piece of evidence can only tell us what that piece of evidence tells us. Other knowledge and insight can give it context and lead to hypotheses, but that doesn't change the nature of that given piece of evidence. I am not actually disagreeing with any particular interpretations. I am only disagreeing on whether the photos tell us that or not.

[nst]

1 minute ago, missegeno said:

heh. so could I.

 

I was actually directly referencing @SassyPants above me, but looking back I see that I just made a reply following her statement instead of actually quoting her. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth.

 

It could very well be a calculated control move. I wouldn't be surprised if it is and I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't. That's just one hypothesis of many. My main point was that a piece of evidence can only tell us what that piece of evidence tells us. Other knowledge and insight can give it context and lead to hypotheses, but that doesn't change the nature of that given piece of evidence. I am not actually disagreeing with any particular interpretations. I am only disagreeing on whether the photos tell us that or not.

words in my mouth not possible

My main point of evidence is Jessa herself - she is arrogant and controlling.  She has lead her life in a bubble on tv and she just goes on and on.  She expects people believe everything she says or does.... tire story number 1 . 

She will never leave her life as she knows it - hell her husband fits in with her family. He embraces it..  She is one of those people who will tell you with a look what she thinks. 

the photos tell us volumes - photos always do - the fact that she shows no photo of herself speaks volumes - the one photo at a family's house told us volumes 

see i told you i could go on and on............

[missegeno]

13 minutes ago, nst said:

words in my mouth not possible

My main point of evidence is Jessa herself - she is arrogant and controlling.  She has lead her life in a bubble on tv and she just goes on and on.  She expects people believe everything she says or does.... tire story number 1 . 

She will never leave her life as she knows it - hell her husband fits in with her family. He embraces it..  She is one of those people who will tell you with a look what she thinks. 

the photos tell us volumes - photos always do - the fact that she shows no photo of herself speaks volumes - the one photo at a family's house told us volumes 

see i told you i could go on and on............

Ah, yeah, Jessa's other actions as supporting evidence, I am all for. Saying that the lack of photos potentially supports an interpretation, sure. As I said, I don't disagree with the interpretations, which are based on a much larger wealth of evidence than a lack of IG photos.

 

I disagree that the lack of photos offers "volumes" of anything or is definitive in any way, other than the simple fact that she isn't posting many pictures of herself holding him.

[SassyPants]

She was the selfie queen before she had the baby.

And now no photos of her....

She suddenly doesn't know how to or doesn't want to take and post a photo of she with her baby?

When you add her own statement about mirrors and scales ,I'll stand by my original assertion that at this point, she is not confident about her looks.

Past behaviors+ her own words+ no photos of her= it's pretty clear.

Not that there's anything wrong with her feelings- she's a young, fairly sheltered, reality TV person- I'm sure it's all a shock.

[socalrules]

If they are truly filming the show, restrictions may have been put on how often they can use social media. 

[twinmama]

2 hours ago, nst said:

i am not saying she is not enamored of spud - she clearly is - she talks to him - posts videos of him - posts endless pictures of him with and without people holding him - you just never see her with HIM - you see others holding him or him there but not holding and sharing a picture- it's a calculation pure and simple. and yes I do think it's control on her part. 

Presumably she is taking the pictures, and thus they are of the baby, not her. I have some kids and me selfies, but 99% of the photos on my phone are just the kids or dad holding the kids.

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, twinmama said:

Presumably she is taking the pictures, and thus they are of the baby, not her. I have some kids and me selfies, but 99% of the photos on my phone are just the kids or dad holding the kids.

This. I'm sure that she holds Lil' Spurge plenty and he's loved and well cared for. The latest (very cute) video she posted on Insta shows her interacting very positively with her child (and the Applied Linguistics student in me was very happy that she was using caregiver speech and demonstrating conversational turn-taking by responding to the sounds he made), and there are plenty of potential reasons why we don't see tons of pictures of her holding him: she might feel self-conscious about her body, she has tons of family members who have major cases of Baby Rabies and probably want to hold Spurge all the time, she's the one taking pictures/videos, and most of the other people who could be uploading shots of Mother Jessa Full of Grace are: on social media lockdown (her parents...ish), not allowed to have social media (the majority of her siblings), in a foreign country (Jill/Derick), busy taking pictures of shoes/strawberries (Sierra), or possibly having beef with Jessa (Jessica Seewald).

Look, I think Jessa's pretty narcissistic and lazy (though I will cut her some slack on the job thing since Spurgeon is like 3 months old right now and she was raised to aspire to be a SAHM), but I don't think she's doing horribly at parenting, from what we can see. And I think there's a bit of cognitive dissonance going on when people get on her ass about posting too much stuff on social media, and then get on her ass about not posting things on social media that prove she's focusing on things more important than social media.

[nst]

3 hours ago, missegeno said:

Ah, yeah, Jessa's other actions as supporting evidence, I am all for. Saying that the lack of photos potentially supports an interpretation, sure. As I said, I don't disagree with the interpretations, which are based on a much larger wealth of evidence than a lack of IG photos.

 

I disagree that the lack of photos offers "volumes" of anything or is definitive in any way, other than the simple fact that she isn't posting many pictures of herself holding him.

ooh this is fun 

we are lawyers are we 

jessa's evidence is in obvious ways - some people regard her as the holy one - I love interpretations - they are a good vice for everyone involved.  Her lack of wealth has nothing on her actual lack of wealth - because she has more wealth than some of us on the board - she also lies out of teeth - she is controlling and cunning.  She will post something to get a reaction and then try another way.  

You disagree on her lack of photos offers volumes - only in your eyes - it offers nothing because you don't see the bigger picture and don't pardon the pun - I see proof in every photo - whether it is just of her ring or her child or Ben' ears or hands - she plays the world and the world doesn't want to be played 

see I am a lawyer in a different sense 

 

[nst]

2 hours ago, socalrules said:

If they are truly filming the show, restrictions may have been put on how often they can use social media. 

and that is the WHOLE truth nothing but he truth so shall help me god 

um remember before the wedding 

nuff said  

today you get the prize 

[twinmama]

I'll also say that even with all those baby crazy family members, if she lives alone with Ben and the baby, she has PLENTY of baby holding time in her day/night. I was so baby touched out by my twins that any time someone came over and asked to help out, I just handed them a kid. I just loved whenever someone wanted to hold them, so I didn't have to! I know that sounds horrible, but that constant state of someone touching you was so exhausting for me!! Probably because infant twins = holding one baby to stop them from crying, while trying to make faces at the other to stop him from crying before you can switch babies. All day.

So maybe Jessa just likes the break from being the only baby holder. Nothing wrong with that!! Let's face it, Ben probably isn't doing much baby care.

[nst]

5 minutes ago, twinmama said:

I'll also say that even with all those baby crazy family members, if she lives alone with Ben and the baby, she has PLENTY of baby holding time in her day/night. I was so baby touched out by my twins that any time someone came over and asked to help out, I just handed them a kid. I just loved whenever someone wanted to hold them, so I didn't have to! I know that sounds horrible, but that constant state of someone touching you was so exhausting for me!! Probably because infant twins = holding one baby to stop them from crying, while trying to make faces at the other to stop him from crying before you can switch babies. All day.

So maybe Jessa just likes the break from being the only baby holder. Nothing wrong with that!! Let's face it, Ben probably isn't doing much baby care.

do you think I said she never holds him - or was this directed at moi because I am only saying she doesn't post photos - unlike JIll

and I think after what SP says about how she feels about her body - I guessing she doesn't have to and because I have never had a kid - I don't know the difference. 

it seems to me though in every picture of spud - he is at the TTH 

and Ben well that is a whole other issue -#theedgypreachercan'tbeseenholdinghis son