Bates Family Part 5

[Kak]

Yes, I do.  I think it is immature and does not add to the discussion. 

So I will add to the discussion.

A few random thoughts:

1. I am impressed with how good Nathan's alleged sweetie, Ashley Salyer (#BronxNewYorkHeart), is at hiding her relationship with him on Instagram. If friends are making comments about her relationship, or her trips to TN, she must be deleting those ASAP. I am not sure her sister was supposed to spill the beans about their visit to TN.  My guess is that Ashley has agreed to hide their relationship until BringingUPBates returns to TV in January.

2. Ashley really seems like she loves city life. She also seems to move in very ethnically diverse circles. Moving to Rocky Top, TN would be a big adjustment for her.

3. I think Jim Bob Duggar's dream is to truly have ALL his sons and son-in-laws living around him and employed in various "Duggar Family Enterprises."  I don't think Gil Bates has as much desire (or capability?) to create a Bates entrepreneurial empire.  [Not that I think Jim Bob will succeed, but he's got grandiose ideas]

 

I disagree. I don't think the term leghumping is either immature or obnoxious. It is an FJ term with a specific meaning, which I specifically meant. Calling someone immature and obnoxious though...

The praise for the Bateses is incomprehensible to me. The "Compare and Contrast the relative merits of the Duggars vs the Bateses" game is a red herring. The bottom line is that they are both philosophically abhorrent to me.  

[imokit]

This is why I think Whitney and Zach will slowly go to fundie-lite or "normal" Christian conservative. Whitney has not always been part of the kook-aid and Zach will see stuff at the sheriff's office that should make him realize that all us other Christian are not horrible people and there is more than one way to live a good moral life.

At the time it was being discussed there was a news article which covered the program he did and had a picture of all the cadets (including Zach) training.  There were two women cadets in the pic (in exercise wear) who also passed the program alongside Zach.

Zach is going to be working with some of the toughest & strongest women around.  He's going to come across awful situations, where he's going to wish women had left their partner.  His job is going to force confrontation at least in regards to some aspects of ATI.  If he liberalises, I can't imagine Whitney objecting.  We don't know how much of Whitney is her keeping sweet for her inlaws and how much is real.  She can stay at home with a lot of children without being ATI.  We don't know what choices they'll make for Bradley's education.  Or how seeing competent women who can outshoot/out wrestle him and severely abused women and children will effect Zach especially when he and Whit have a daughter (and they will as I've little doubt they'll have at least a bigger than average family).  We also don't know how Whit will react when she realises that she's depriving a daughter of the freedoms she loved as girl.

I think there are more potential triggers for them gradually becoming at least fundie-lite/conservative, than there are for them to stay.

[unforgiving]

I disagree. I don't think the term leghumping is either immature or obnoxious. It is an FJ term with a specific meaning, which I specifically meant. Calling someone immature and obnoxious though...

The praise for the Bateses is incomprehensible to me. The "Compare and Contrast the relative merits of the Duggars vs the Bateses" game is a red herring. The bottom line is that they are both philosophically abhorrent to me.  

Yes, of course, they are both philosophically abhorrent. That doesn't mean they are both equally abhorrent as people though, and what qualities we find abhorrent in people is completely subjective anyway.

[Fascinated]

Perhaps we can all agree that the Bateseseses have more savvy publicists?  (The Bateseseses must be shaking their heads wondering how they are still languishing on UPtv, while TLC continues pursuing and promoting the Duggars.)

 

(I really, really enjoy the fact that my iPad auto-types 'Bateseseses'.)

[formergothardite]

I find the parents equally abhorrent. I don't see how they aren't.  Both helped hide sexual abuse, one was in the home, the other was in a cult. Gil and Kelly really aren't that different than Jim Bob and Michelle, except that there is a good chance they helped cover up more abuse than the Duggar parents. 

[MissBitters]

the suprise/headshaking here is not over saying we like their dresses or think Bradley is cute (he's so cute!). It's about the fact that posts which bring back to our minds the real reason we talk about these people here are downvoted, because God forbid someone remind us that that cute baby's parents are in a cult. 

Personally, I don't care about the upvoting or downvoting. Either someone will like what I said or not. What I find tiresome is the tone of the posts whenever someone decides to hand slap people for not actively hating on fundies. It's not the differing opinion that's obnoxious so much as it is the condescending tone some (not all!) posters have whenever they like to remind us that fundies are bad m'kay. It gets monotonous after awhile.

[lizzybee]

The Duggars are all emotionally stunted because the parents are too. It all comes down to the parents IMHO. Don't get me wrong. I know how vile either family's believes are when it comes to equality, freedom of speech and choice, LGBTQI, etc. Yet, if I was forced to spend time with one of them on the proverbial deserted island, I'd spend time with the Bateses for sure. There's no way anyone could get me to spend time with Duggar childults and emotional waste land like Boob and Meech. 

 

I'm tempted to buy Erin's album on iTunes because I like classical Christmas music, but I don't want to support them and their fundy Christian agenda, either. I have no doubt, though, that Erin is an excellent teacher and wish I'd had a piano teacher like her nearby when I was young and still able to learn and play. 

 

Has anyone noticed Erin's post about Chad doing most of their laundry? Could anyone send a Chad to me, please? I have lots and lots of laundry waiting for him.

The album is also available on Spotify.

[unforgiving]

I find the parents equally abhorrent. I don't see how they aren't.  Both helped hide sexual abuse, one was in the home, the other was in a cult. Gil and Kelly really aren't that different than Jim Bob and Michelle, except that there is a good chance they helped cover up more abuse than the Duggar parents. 

I don't find them equally abhorrent, and here's my reasoning for that.

Both the Duggar and Bates parents have been brainwashed into a cult. That cult has a very blase attitude towards sexual assault, and being a cult, it has passed that attitude on  to it's members.

Like you said, both sets of parents have covered up sexual abuse, one in the home, the other in the cult. Obviously abhorrent, but they are brainwashed cult members, so it's not completely unexpected that they would do such a thing. That doesn't make it  acceptable. That  certainly doesn't mean I agree with it.

What it does mean, however, is that both sets of  parents have got some pretty fucking serious lessons to learn about sexual abuse and the dangers of covering it up and not acting upon accusations  straight away to protect victims. 

In the past, the Bates parents have shown us that they have the capacity to  learn from their mistakes and make a change when they have needed to. JB Duggar has never ever shown, IMO, that he has the capacity to even  truely admit that he has made a mistake (to himself or anyone else), let alone learn from it!! THIS, IMO, is what makes the Duggar parents worse than the Bates parents.

I'm not saying that Gil WILL learn why covering up sexual abuse really is so wrong and dangerous and abhorrent. But I think he COULD learn. I don't think JB CAN learn. He has no empathy. He doesn't care about anything or anyone expect his own brand and image. I do think Gil does at least have some empathy, and if the consequences of covering up sexual abuse are properly explained to him, I think he could come to an understanding about how dangerous it really is.

[formergothardite]

I think Gil knows covering up abuse is wrong. Gil and Kelly are WAY more aware of how the general public view their crazy beliefs and lifestyle than Jim Bob and Michelle.  The Bates have also shown that they know how to edit their lives to make it more appealing. The shift I see is more of them learning to be more media savvy and how to better hide the crazy. No way we would get pictures now of their room dedicated to worshiping a KKK leader and the Confederacy. I am pretty sure they still have it, they just aren't going to show that side of them. I doubt Kelly would admit now that she can't remember all of her children's names well enough to list them. And it isn't because she suddenly became a better mother, she just realized people frown on women who get so obsessed with having babies that they can't name the kids they already have. The thing with Zack sort of forced their hand and I'm not sure they would have gone with the "dating with a purpose" thing if hadn't forced them into it by finding his own girlfriend. They changed the name of what they called courtship, but they didn't really change a whole lot about it. 

Gil and Kelly know how to tell people what they want to hear, they know how to adapt to make people like them more without really changing the beliefs that are so awful, they know how to hide the dark side better, but I don't really think they are more likely to learn that spending years covering up all sorts of awful abuse is wrong and they should admit it and ask for forgiveness. I think that the recent move of the IBLP BoD shows that it is made up of a bunch of slimy, conniving men who care about protecting the money and the cult they have help run and they give no shits about all the people who got hurt. That is the sort of person Gil Bates is. 

[unforgiving]

the suprise/headshaking here is not over saying we like their dresses or think Bradley is cute (he's so cute!). It's about the fact that posts which bring back to our minds the real reason we talk about these people here are downvoted, because God forbid someone remind us that that cute baby's parents are in a cult. 

Unfortunately though, people don't get sucked into cults just because they are 'bad' people.  It's nice to think this way. It makes us feel safe, because with this line of thinking, as long as we believe ourselves to be good people we believe that we will not fall victim to a brainwashing cult.

This isn't the truth though. All kinds of people have fallen victim to  cults. People of all ages, races, socioeconomic backgrounds,  etc. These people are rarely inherently 'bad' people. What they do tend to have in common is that they have recently gone through a major change or trauma.

To me, this just makes it sad and I often wonder how the families we discuss here would have turned out had they not experienced whatever it was that drove them towards joining a cult. Here's an article about what motivates people to join cults that I found quite interesting and informative:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sideways-view/201402/why-do-people-join-cults

 

[unforgiving]

formergothardite, I've really enjoyed our discussion in this thread and there are obviously  some things that we disagree on. I do agree with you on some things as well , and you have made some points that I hadn't thought about, and now am  thinking about.

I'm willing to concede that part of the reason that I can defend the Bates  on some things (and  will probably continue to do so, unless they do something that changes my mind about them)  is because I can only see JB as being a narcissistic asshole, who is interested in keeping his own image and feeding his ego.  These people are a trigger for me because I grew up with one of them as a parent and I know just how damaging they can be. It is the conditional love that is the most damaging thing. I do think Gil loves all his kids unconditionally, and for that reason his kids will turn out way less fucked up than  JB's.

I think Kelly is actually really manipulative, and I don't wouldn't defend her in the same way (although I  do think she is a way more capable teacher than Michelle, and it's showing as the kids grow older!), but at the end of the day, they are members of a patriarchal cult (that I believe Kelly led them into ?) so she doesn't get as much say as her husband  and he'll always be able to reign her if he wanted to. Michelle isn't in the position to do that with JB, maybe that's why she seems to have lost herself completely).

I don't agree with people downvoting you for your opinion. That seems pretty pointless  and rather petty. They could have joined in and contributed to the discussion, but whatever. I'll save my downvotes for anyone that is being really immature, name calling or attacking another member here for having a different opinion than themselves!

[nelliebelle1197]

Calling people "leghumpers" for not completely despising a fundie is obnoxious. I've yet to see anyone jump on the ATI bandwagon just because they said they like Erin's dress or find Bradley adorable. All of us think their beliefs are horrible, but that doesn't mean we can't find something positive to say about them as individuals. People are complicated & it's possible to like someone while still disagreeing with their beliefs. When it comes down to it there are much more despicable people in this world than the Bates & other families like them.

The reaction was to the people calling Kelly such a wonderful mother, and how different the Duggars are from the Bates, etc., etc., not about the superficial crap you listed.

Actually, the Bateseses are pretty damn dispicable. Gil covers up child abuse and rape. Kelly's "child training" would get her arrested in many countries. They grift and have so many kids they cannot remember each child's name. Kelly is as bad as Michelle and Gil is likely worse than JB- he can't even afford his kids.

[grandmadugger]

The biggest difference I see between the two families is that the Bates belong to the cult of ATI where the Duggars are in the cult of Jim Bob.  

   It won't let me like this a million times so I'll just bow.

[lascuba]

At the time it was being discussed there was a news article which covered the program he did and had a picture of all the cadets (including Zach) training.  There were two women cadets in the pic (in exercise wear) who also passed the program alongside Zach.

Zach is going to be working with some of the toughest & strongest women around.  He's going to come across awful situations, where he's going to wish women had left their partner.  His job is going to force confrontation at least in regards to some aspects of ATI.  If he liberalises, I can't imagine Whitney objecting.  We don't know how much of Whitney is her keeping sweet for her inlaws and how much is real.  She can stay at home with a lot of children without being ATI.  We don't know what choices they'll make for Bradley's education.  Or how seeing competent women who can outshoot/out wrestle him and severely abused women and children will effect Zach especially when he and Whit have a daughter (and they will as I've little doubt they'll have at least a bigger than average family).  We also don't know how Whit will react when she realises that she's depriving a daughter of the freedoms she loved as girl.

I think there are more potential triggers for them gradually becoming at least fundie-lite/conservative, than there are for them to stay.

Considering that the rate of domestic abusers among cops is much higher than the national average, Zach working with strong women and witnessing women being abused is unlikely to change his worldview. 

[singsingsing]

Considering that the rate of domestic abusers among cops is much higher than the national average, Zach working with strong women and witnessing women being abused is unlikely to change his worldview. 

If he's already inclined to think that domestic abuse isn't a big deal, then definitely, being in that environment could just reinforce it. But if he's inclined otherwise, yeah, working as a cop could really open his eyes. Not every cop is a scumbag who beats his wife. Plenty of them are actually good people who are just trying to serve the community and are deeply troubled by the abuse they witness on a near daily basis. I have no idea which category Zach fits into. Hopefully the latter. 

[doubleT]

In a Instagram pic that Chad and Erin posted on Thanksgiving day (holding Carson) Erin's hair is in soft "beachy" waves and not her traditional little curls at the ends of her hair.  It looked nice on her.  Maybe she is updating her curls.   

[singsingsing]

Maybe she's finding it difficult to maintain her curls now that she has a baby - although I'd imagine curling her hair is second nature to her by now and she could probably almost do it in her sleep. This somewhat fascinates me because, although I've had long hair most of my life, I never really learned how to do anything with it. I always kind of wanted to, but was way too lazy and uninterested. If I want to get really fancy, I blow-dry it. 

[lascuba]

If he's already inclined to think that domestic abuse isn't a big deal, then definitely, being in that environment could just reinforce it. But if he's inclined otherwise, yeah, working as a cop could really open his eyes. Not every cop is a scumbag who beats his wife. Plenty of them are actually good people who are just trying to serve the community and are deeply troubled by the abuse they witness on a near daily basis. I have no idea which category Zach fits into. Hopefully the latter. 

Sure, but they routinely turn a blind eye or outright defend the shitty cops among them. When that changes--when I see the alleged good cops routinely call out their brothers in blue, then I might stop painting with a broad brush. Until then, spare me the #NotAllCops talk. I really do not want to hear how people in power are just hapless victims.

[urban teacher]

I, also, think that being a cop will only make Zach's beliefs worse. In fact, I pity whichever department hires him because he is a lawsuit waiting to happen given his family's beliefs.

[lascuba]

I, also, think that being a cop will only make Zach's beliefs worse. In fact, I pity whichever department hires him because he is a lawsuit waiting to happen given his family's beliefs.

Right? A fundamentalist Christian in an patriarchal cult from a family that has a room dedicated to the Confederacy and the KKK, gets a badge, a gun, and a de facto guarantee that the only punishment he'll face for breaking any law is suspension with pay. What can possibly go wrong?

[HereticHick]

Sure, but they routinely turn a blind eye or outright defend the shitty cops among them. When that changes--when I see the alleged good cops routinely call out their brothers in blue, then I might stop painting with a broad brush. Until then, spare me the #NotAllCops talk. I really do not want to hear how people in power are just hapless victims.

There are many of us in FJ who have beloved family and friends who are police officers, both civilian and military. Not all of them are male. Not all of them are white.

I would just like to go on record that I find broad brush denunciations of the entire police profession to be intellectually lazy and extremely offensive.

I've said my bit. Carry on. 

[MissBitters]

Knowing his history, it would give me pause if Josh Duggar was pursuing a job in law enforcement.  From what I've seen of Zack so far, I think it's unfair to make a judgement about his performance as a police officer until there is evidence of him  acting like a dirty cop. He doesn't try to minister to people like Josh and Ben Seewald on his instagram or on the show. At most he and Whitney post the typical "God loves me" inspirational quotes. There is not doubt he has been raised with objectionable beliefs, but that doesn't mean he believes everything his parents taught him. I'll save my judgement for if and when he does or says something stupid. I think his biggest problem may be Gil trying to take advantage of the system because his son is a cop.

[lascuba]

*Sigh* I keep forgetting that for all the criticism of fundies, FJ is not exactly progressive and many are at 101 levels when talking about various social justice issues.

I'm talking of systemic problems that exist within police departments. If you are offended because you see criticisms of a system and apply them to those beloved individuals, then this discussion isn't for you.

[Charliemae]

In a Instagram pic that Chad and Erin posted on Thanksgiving day (holding Carson) Erin's hair is in soft "beachy" waves and not her traditional little curls at the ends of her hair.  It looked nice on her.  Maybe she is updating her curls.   

oh my she looks lovely in that picture. The cynic on me thinks it's because Chad likes it better down. 

*Sigh* I keep forgetting that for all the criticism of fundies, FJ is not exactly progressive and many are at 101 levels when talking about various social justice issues.

I'm talking of systemic problems that exist within police departments. If you are offended because you see criticisms of a system and apply them to those beloved individuals, then this discussion isn't for you.

I was a remedial student in social justice issues when I first found fj. There are a ton of users on this site.  Keep educating the masses. 

 

Its strange when people think these conversations are somehow a dig against all individuals in law enforcement. No I'm not talking about your cousins nephew. I'm talking about Zack Bates .

[princessmahina]

I like to think the best of people until they give me a reason to do otherwise, so I'm a little hopeful that being a police officer will change Zach, even if just a tiny bit, for the better. I'm not holding my breath though.