Jill & Jessa specials coming - MERGED

[batuityma]

A PDA is NOT HLHS-

^^^

Yes to this

but also yes to this

vvv

survival rates for CHDs are so much higher now in the past 20 years because of the leaps and bounds science and medicine have made.

You just can't compare the statistical survival rates from 35 or even 13 years ago to what they are today. (Speaking in generalizations of course, each individual case is unique)

I know three kiddos with HLHS and two with ToF. All five ALSO have Down syndrome (not exactly considered a good scenario to have that dual diagnosis in either case). All five are under the age of 6 and have been given an extremely good prognosis for the future. At least 3 of these kids (don't know about the others) have flown out to Boston for treatment. The breakthrough treatments they are doing at Boston Children's are amazing. Even within the last five years the advancements have been astonishing!

I am so grateful that my son was not diagnosed with ToF before he was born. Abortion is offered when a fetus is found to have this and quite frankly, when they lay out the problems and treatments, it is very terrifying. It's a rare defect and chances are that you don't know anyone who has it.

None of the parents of these kids were "advised" to abort. (We all live in the same area and used the same perinatal and neonatal medical groups so I don't know if that matters) There is difference between discussing options and having a doctor make a recommendation to terminate.

Yeah it is scary as hell to receive a poor prenatal diagnosis but the landscape in terms of access to information nowadays is totally different than even a decade ago. The internet is an amazing resource for finding support groups (both online and in person.) These groups can connect you to literally thousands of other parents who can share experiences and resources. For defects that are rare, this his kind of information sharing wasn't possible not that long ago. Information is the key here. There is obviously NO WAY to predict with absolute certainty how your own child will respond to treatment. But the more information you have access to the better equipped you will be to make a decision. IMHO

ETA: Added for accuracy sake. Talked to a friend and turns out one of the kids I referred to as having HLHS actually has unbalanced AVSD.

[calimojo]

I have been in the business a long time (30+ years) and have never heard of a physician recommending abortion for CHD or many other neonatal conditions. Even situations, where the condition is considered incompatible with life, , physicians don't "recommend" abortion. What they may do, is present all options. For example, they would explain the risks of continuing pregnancy, the life expectancy for the infant outside the womb, and the risk of termination. But they aren't endorsing termination, it is just presented as an option that the mother has not as this is what you should do.

Now, having said that, there may be individual women who have health issues related to pregnancy, and going forward with the pregnancy could endanger their lives. This is obviously a very different issue.

I have taken care of women where the fetus had known fetal defects that were incompatible with life, and then struggled with pre term labor. In more than one instance, the Mother decided against stopping the preterm labor, even though she was far from her due date. I think they felt that mother nature, or God, or their bodies, was in charge, and that in the natural order of things, the body was stepping in to manage the tragic situation. 2 of these cases stand out for me from all my years, and they were amazingly poignant situations. It was an honor to assist these women and their families as they worked through what was happening. To see the love that they had for their infant, to see the sadness of loss of what could have been, and to see the release spiritually for this little soul who, though only here for a short time, made a huge impact on their lives for ever was truly incredible.

Medical science has come a long way, and many conditions are now survivable that weren't before. Even so, though, there still remains several conditions that are not survivable. Yes, through life support, they may "live" for days, weeks, but not past that. To keep them alive through supportive measures, will put them at risk for infections, NEC, brain bleeds, etc. And since they can't speak for themselves, we have no way of knowing the suffering, fear, pain, that they endure during that time. No one should be coerced to have a termination, but as hard as it is hear, you should have educated medical professionals who can have very honest conversations with you about what it will mean if your baby is born with one of those conditions, and what their few days of life might really be like for them.

There are no easy answers in these cases, and no single decision that will feel good and right 100% of the time. If you know of someone who has or is experiencing this, love them with all your heart, never judge them, and never imagine that you can fully "understand" what they are going through because you cannot.

[SassyPants]

^^^

Yes to this

but also yes to this

vvv

You just can't compare the statistical survival rates from 35 or even 13 years ago to what they are today. (Speaking in generalizations of course, each individual case is unique)

I know three kiddos with HLHS and two with ToF. All five ALSO have Down syndrome (not exactly considered a good scenario to have that dual diagnosis in either case). All five are under the age of 6 and have been given an extremely good prognosis for the future. At least 3 of these kids (don't know about the others) have flown out to Boston for treatment. The breakthrough treatments they are doing at Boston Children's are amazing. Even within the last five years the advancements have been astonishing!

None of the parents of these kids were "advised" to abort. (We all live in the same area and used the same perinatal and neonatal medical groups so I don't know if that matters) There is difference between discussing options and having a doctor make a recommendation to terminate.

Yeah it is scary as hell to receive a poor prenatal diagnosis but the landscape in terms of access to information nowadays is totally different than even a decade ago. The internet is an amazing resource for finding support groups (both online and in person.) These groups can connect you to literally thousands of other parents who can share experiences and resources. For defects that are rare, this his kind of information sharing wasn't possible not that long ago. Information is the key here. There is obviously NO WAY to predict with absolute certainty how your own child will respond to treatment. But the more information you have access to the better equipped you will be to make a decision. IMHO

ETA: Added for accuracy sake. Talked to a friend and turns out one of the kids I referred to as having HLHS actually has unbalanced AVSD.

I retired last year- the information I was talking about is current to July 2014, not 35 years ago. My career spanned 35 years.

I will say that for many of the conditions that require staged repairs, as in needing multiple stages/surgeries and treatments to repair, and which often times will eventually require heart transplantation, stats have not improved that much in the decades I practiced.

I was a perfusion nurse for infants and children and the success rates for CHD conditions that require pediatric ECMO therapy are abysmal.

[twinmama]

I do get it that some parents find humor in the WWB term and yeah humor does help during times of stress. I‘ve already admitted that I have a chip on my shoulder about medical slang, but I think I am coming from a different perspective. There is some difference between “wimpy white boy†and the language I’ve heard professionals use about my child. My daughter has Down syndrome. “Humorous†medical slang that references the fact that she is intellectually disabled carries a very different implication. There is a dehumanizing quality to it that seems more pronounced than terms like “wimpyâ€. When it comes to the time spent in hospitals, I’ve not only found myself fighting for my daughter’s life but also her right to be seen as a human being.

You sound like an awesome mom and a great advocate for your daughter. I will say part of the difference between wimpy white boy and what you go through with your daughter is probably that WWB was a temporary part of our story that we knew would end. Your daughter will have DS her whole life and you will always have to deal with the disrespect some people give her. I would also imagine that if my boys hadn't survived, I would have NO love for the wimpy white boy terminology. Like you say, it would be disrespecting them and what they went through. Thank you for making me think about that.

[twinmama]

In terms of CHD and long term outcome, it all depends on the exact defect.

A PDA is NOT HLHS-

I was a NICU nurse for 35 years and I have never heard of an abortion being suggested for a prenatal DX of CHD, but I have heard of some parents withholding treatment [after medical consultation] for severe CHD conditions in the newborn period.

Wait, where did PDA come into this? My boys both had PDA, while not severe, they closed on their own without even medication nevermind surgery. From what our NICU docs said, PDA isn't usually that big a deal (the surgery being very common if needed).

[hilee]

I have seen termination recommended for HLHS, but I'm sure there's more to it than I know not treating the patient.

[SassyPants]

Wait, where did PDA come into this? My boys both had PDA, while not severe, they closed on their own without even medication nevermind surgery. From what our NICU docs said, PDA isn't usually that big a deal (the surgery being very common if needed).

One of the most common cardiac conditions, PDA.

[calimojo]

I have seen termination recommended for HLHS, but I'm sure there's more to it than I know not treating the patient.

Interesting. I have never seen that. I imagine that a good physician is going to include all options when discussing this finding with parents and certainly termination is an option, but recommending it as the best option is a different thing than just including it as an option to consider.

I could see, if being pregnant was especially risky for the mom, that a physician may encourage them to give that option some consideration if a condition was not survivable, but none of the physicians in my area would ever come out and say "you really should have an abortion".

As Sassy and some others on here can tell you, these are deeply personal, often tragic and typically frightening things to be faced with. People come from a variety of backgrounds, religious beliefs and values, and no physician today, is going to push a woman to abort. These conversations are highly charged and emotional. Someone might hear something that has been presented as an option, as a recommendation, but unless the mother's life is also in danger, I just don't think there are a lot of doctors out there recommending abortions because a baby might not be perfect.

[batuityma]

I retired last year- the information I was talking about is current to July 2014, not 35 years ago. My career spanned 35 years.

I will say that for many of the conditions that require staged repairs, as in needing multiple stages/surgeries and treatments to repair, and which often times will eventually require heart transplantation, stats have not improved that much in the decades I practiced.

I was a perfusion nurse for infants and children and the success rates for CHD conditions that require pediatric ECMO therapy are abysmal.

I’m sorry if I sounded like I was discounting your experience. My post was kind of disjointed and I could have worded things better.

I should not have said “survival rates.†I think I should have said long-term prognosis statistics. As in, the studies that look at adults who were treated in childhood for CHDs. And my point was those studies might not be relevant when predicting prognosis for a baby born today and treated with the most up-to-date procedures. So a 35-year-old, a 13-year-old, and a 3-year-old might have all been born with the same CHD, but each one might have undergone different treatments. It is hard to look at the 35-year-old as an example of what to expect for the 3-year-old at age 35. This was something I encountered when researching my daughter’s GI defect. I wanted to know what to expect down the road but in the studies I found about adults, they had all undergone a different surgical technique that was no longer used.

I completely understand your point that not all CHDs are equal in terms of severity and treatability. There are some that have very poor outcomes even with the latest treatments.

[Daisy4]

I don't know if this has been discussed since josh-gate but back in 2011 Michelle did a radio interview and said that the girls wear polo shirts and skirts to sleep and that no one was allowed downstairs in the morning with their PJs on.

We all speculated as to the reason for these strange rules... little did we know!

The links to the interviews don't work any more but I'm wondering if anyone saved the audio files. I still find it disturbing that Michelle found it appropriate to give advice on sibling purity and modesty given how she failed to protect her own daughters.

viewtopic.php?t=854

Edited to move this to the josh thread

[nst]

I don't know if this has been discussed since josh-gate but back in 2011 Michelle did a radio interview and said that the girls wear polo shirts and skirts to sleep and that no one was allowed downstairs in the morning with their PJs on.

We all speculated as to the reason for these strange rules... little did we know!

The links to the interviews don't work any more but I'm wondering if anyone saved the audio files. I still find it disturbing that Michelle found it appropriate to give advice on sibling purity and modesty given how she failed to protect her own daughters.

viewtopic.php?t=854

Edited to move this to the josh thread

how true is this

because there was an episode this past season where Ben and Jessa were sitting on the couch (in the morning) and Michelle comes into the kitchen - Ben jumps up and takes dishes from the kitchen to the other kitchen - and then

Jordyn comes into the room in her nightie and Ben says Hi Jordyn and Michelle says what would you like for breakfast.

So that theory on Michelle is shot :D

[artdecades]

Michelle and JB also said they don't let the little girls sit on men's laps, but we have seen Josie sitting on Ben and Josh's laps.

They are liars

[JoyfullyUnavailable]

Yawn. Spinoffs are seldom successful. I wouldn't be supremes if it gets cancelled after just a few specials or episodes.   The only spinoff I would be interested in is they offer a show to Anna or any of the kids about ditching that awful family. It would be the perfect way out. 

[ClaraOswin]

Yawn. Spinoffs are seldom successful. I wouldn't be supremes if it gets cancelled after just a few specials or episodes.   The only spinoff I would be interested in is they offer a show to Anna or any of the kids about ditching that awful family. It would be the perfect way out. 

It's not an actual series that is currently planned. Just 2 or 3 'specials.' I'm sure they WANT to turn it into a series but no word on if they will at this point.

[SilverBeach]

 

She’s five and a little spitfire that keeps me on my toes!

 

I do want to repeat that MOST doctors, nurses & other professionals who have cared for her have been really wonderful. Her pediatrician is the most awesome person ever and I am so grateful that we have her on our team. Yet, unfortunately there are always going to be people who have prejudicial attitudes.

And fluck those insensitive aholes and their attitudes. You are an amazing mom and I'm sure your daughter is amazing too.

[DaysAgo]

Has TLC cancelled the Jill and Jessa spin-off show yet? I hear that there are hundreds of companies who will not advertise for any Duggar/Dillard/Seewald show.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I'm watching TLC and have seen a couple commercials for Jill and Jessa: Counting on.  Thy are call it a special, not a show,yet.  I think they are waiting to see what kind of ratings they get before they get a full on spin off or just ditch them all together. 

 

[InThePrayerCloset]

A lot of journalists etc are saying it "should" be cancelled/not aired (if that's the right term for "specials" rather than series), but i've certainly seen no suggestion that it has been... i hope it has though! 

[HarleyQuinn]

Damn it, I read the thread title and got excited. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I sure hope they cancel it. I have a hard time believing they will after spending time and money shooting it and advertising it, but I sure hope they do. 

[EmCatlyn]

My guess is TLC will run at least one or two of the "specials" even if they have to run them with fewer commercials or at a not-quite-prime time because they can't get big advertising bucks.  

We know they have been filming.  They have footage from the cancelled season of 19 kids that they may be able to use.  It may not be that expensive to produce the specials and it may be worth the gamble.

Let's face it. They know there is interest. 

Consider our own obsession with the unnamed Baby.  

[Jingerbread]

My guess is TLC will run at least one or two of the "specials" even if they have to run them with fewer commercials or at a not-quite-prime time because they can't get big advertising bucks.  

We know they have been filming.  They have footage from the cancelled season of 19 kids that they may be able to use.  It may not be that expensive to produce the specials and it may be worth the gamble.

Hidden Content

The money is in the ads, not the viewer-interest.  I think a lot of people will watch since it's hard to not look at the aftermath of a train wreck.  But if hundreds of big companies are refusing to sponsor the show, then it's going to be a financial loss.  The way I understand it is the more interest, the more spots go for, like the Super Bowl.  What company doesn't want to run ads during that game?  So they charge crazy amounts for a spot.  But no one wants empty spots either.  So prices go down when there isn't enough demand.  Fewer companies willing to air during a Duggar show means less competition and lower commercial spot pricing.

They've come far enough with production that they might as well finish, but I think that'll be the end for the Duggars.  Even TLC won't want to run a money-loser.  And even with that, if they have other shows they can run that sponsors will pay for, the Duggars' shows could end up as internet-exclusives instead.

[EmCatlyn]

The money is in the ads, not the viewer-interest.  I think a lot of people will watch since it's hard to not look at the aftermath of a train wreck.  But if hundreds of big companies are refusing to sponsor the show, then it's going to be a financial loss.  The way I understand it is the more interest, the more spots go for, like the Super Bowl.  What company doesn't want to run ads during that game?  So they charge crazy amounts for a spot.  But no one wants empty spots either.  So prices go down when there isn't enough demand.  Fewer companies willing to air during a Duggar show means less competition and lower commercial spot pricing.

They've come far enough with production that they might as well finish, but I think that'll be the end for the Duggars.  Even TLC won't want to run a money-loser.  And even with that, if they have other shows they can run that sponsors will pay for, the Duggars' shows could end up as internet-exclusives instead.

Yes, that sounds right. But they may be hoping that if they can prove enough viewer interest they can get some of the sponsors back, or attract new ones.  I hope they are mistaken and that you are right and the Duggars don't use the Specials to sneak back in.

[Criscat]

We need an updated list!

[DuggarWatch]

I think there will be an acceptable number of views for the first show about Jessa's birth, but not much interest in the pseudo missionary special (which won't even be on until 2016).  Then, Josh will be released from reform school and the negative media frenzy will start again.