Lori Alexander - Still Not Learning A Thing, Part 3

[Florita]

A little quarrel developed this morning in the comments of Andrea's isolation post. I'll cut & paste here for the record because delete key.

terrybreathinggrace 44p · 11 hours ago

I find it sad that Christians of the most devout variety don't seem to get that referring to yourself as humble is a sure mark of pride. I keep remembering how Paul referred to himself as chief of sinners. When you say that homeschooling, not working and letting God have control of your fertiiity means you are walking closer with the Lord you are indeed declaring that you are more holy than the wife who loves the Lord deeply but whose husband has set her on a different course. I realize now what bothers me so. It is the ingrained and obviously stated "fact" the problem is the judgment in the hearts of other women rather than the pride in one's own. And I recognize it because it wasn't so long ago that I was convicted of it myself. My pride in being so much more submissive than other wives. I have so much I could say on this topic becausr I feel deeply about it. As women we must be careful. We are so quick to assume that other women don't like us because wr are so much better/holier/prettiet/whatever than they are. It is an inbred female trait it seems. One that Satan ecploits to keep us from being the lights we could be.

This is born of pride and quite frankly, I am a little saddened by some of what was written the more I ponder it. Seriously, that women are afraid of things turning "Leave It To Beaver?" That they think you're going to make them get pregnant or cook or what have you? That Christian women can't be satisfied with tea and homemade cake? Really? Why would they accept tje invite of someone they hold in such derision? I live in a very secular metro area and have never witnessed such as a regular occurrence. I have tried to show restraint because I belive this post is sincere, and I believe Andrea is no doubt a wonderful wife and mother.But we need to chevk our hearts when we are so holy that we can't find one other believer with whom we can commiserate over God's amazing grace regardless of what else we may not have in common.

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1 reply · active 16 minutes ago

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Andrea · 16 minutes ago

Respectfully, you are finding issue where you want to find one. You have not read the parts where I have continually had women over? Reached out to them? On another thread I spoke of the ministry of bringing meals to families in need? Do you think I perform a litmus test to ensure they reach my level of holiness before I do this? The entire point of this article wasn't about ME, but about how many women in the church are feeling isolated and ignored and shunned, no matter HOW much they reach out.

You want a real issue here, because you want this to be about me. The Leave it To Beaver part was a joke. Do you realize how I've been made fun of in my own church? How can you comment so harshly against me? Do realize that the wife of a person in a high position of authority at our church told me just before I wrote this article, "It's clear what you guys do to say warm in the winter! Do you even have time to read your bible with all those kids?" Do you realize that when you judge me for my "pride"?

You don't have any idea what you are talking about in this situation. I am glad you have never witnessed what I have. That's wonderful for you, and you are who I prayed about in the article, that I was hoping was more the normal experience. This article is not some whim where I got my feathers in a ruffle because I think people don't like me because I'm better/holier/prettier/whatever like you stated. This article is ten YEARS in the making. Ten years of being cast off, made fun of, ignored and left out of a church that is filled with many nice people, and few that want anything to do with anyone who isn't going to Christian concerts regularly, and girls night out. If you don't believe that, or want it to be about me and my pride, then I can't change your reaction.

Be thankful you haven't experienced this, and that you are well accepted. There are many who are not. They experience a real hurt, a real loneliness, and despite you painting it a picture of them thinking it's because they are so above everyone else, most of them with whom I've talked and met, are the some of the most humble and godly women I've ever had the pleasure to meet.

God Bless you today, sister.

[Koala]

What's funny, it that just today Lori was admonishing her readers to be quiet and not argue.  That doesn't stop her, of course, from arguing with anyone who dares to disagree with her almost daily.  It didn't stop Andrea from arguing with Terrybreathinggrace.  It doesn't stop Lori from posting every.single.day. of the year.  How is that humble, quiet, and non-argumentative?

[EmiGirl]

Did she never stop to think that some of those comments were a way of trying to break the ice and not to be made fun of? I used to be like her and think people didn't like me and we're making fun of me with teasing remarks, but it turns out they were trying to start a conversation. It doesn't help though that I suffer with BRF and used to be quiet and backward. That made people think I was the 1 being snotty. 

When "EVERYONE" hates you,  you need to stop and think that you might be the problem,  not them. 

 

[usmcmom]

My point is that unless we have similar lifestyles and goals and beliefs, we have little in common for which to find friendship and fellowship.

 

In the isolation post, Andrea writes the line quoted above.  I find it sad that she feels she can only be friends with those who are just like her.  Perhaps I'm in the extreme minority, but one of my dearest friends is someone with whom I have hardly anything in common. In fact, we often laugh and say "HOW can we be friends....?"  We are the same age but her children are in elementary school - mine are grown and married. She is a professional woman who has a nanny. I was a stay-at-home mom and continue to stay home.  She does not attend church and is liberal leaning in her political beliefs (I cannot call her a Democrat because she is from another country and I don't think they classify themselves with the same parties as we do). Church is a big part of my life and I tend to vote Republican.  And yet, when we are together we spend hours upon hours talking about everything under the sun. We confide in each other. We affirm each other.  When we have to say goodbye, we both weep like babies.  We are separated by an ocean but we exchange lengthy emails to keep caught up on each other's lives or to seek advice.  She accepts me where I am and I accept her where she is and, somehow, we just clicked and formed a very unexpected friendship.  Where would I be if we'd looked at each other at that first meeting and thought "eh...she's nothing like me. Why bother?"  

Andrea, I believe, is the one who has determined that these other women are not worthy of her friendship and she likely conveys that in not-so-subtle ways.  She is completely unwilling to look at herself and see what SHE might be doing wrong.  She mentions number of children quite often; a low number is definitely a mark against somebody she is vetting for friendship.  I also think Andrea is the female Cabinet Man. She can't seem to write a post without making herself out to be the saint/hero while everyone around her falls short.   

 

 

 

 

[salex]

 

I believe I have figured out why I have such a visceral reaction to Ken and Lori.  It is because from outward appearances, they are much like my husband and myself-- educated, upper middle class, suburbanites.  We had a consulting firm that morphed into a software company, and have been self employed for 2 decades. While we no longer attend, we went to a nice midsized church, but more liberal than theirs (one minister was a woman).  Demographically, they look like many of the people we have as friends and relatives. 

But when I read their blog, I half expect them to defend stoning impure women. (After all, there is justification for it in the bible)   I have some fundie and fundie light relatives and in-laws, but even among them, the views Ken and Lori express are either rare or rarely spoken.  I will admit, while some of my friends and relatives were SAHMs many either worked when the kids were older or worked online or at home when the kids were older, though a few didn't.  Even the home school parents had two incomes from time to time. 

 

But Ken and Lori and their guest bloggers seem to set a tone that screams suburban christian Taliban.  While Lori and Ken haven't the balls to have lori dress frumpy/skirts only, they do have guest posters who preach it.  They believe any disagreement with them is disagreement with God Himself.  They seem to admire violent ways to get their way (Men disciplining wives, belts on babies) and they dismiss other versions of Christianity than theirs (even among their own ministers) as unGodly.   The fact they walk around so ordinary looking makes them scarey. 

And the fact they are incredible hypocrites should drive off followers, but as is often the case, it doesn't seem to. 

(Isnt' it fortunate that they came to the idea of having as many children as God would allow after they had been married 25+ years?) And that Ken doesn't think skirts only is required for Lori, etc etc etc. 

BTW, who defined Lori as a Godly Older Woman, other than Lori her self?

I could call myself Queen of Kansas, but it would not make it so. 

 

 

[jerkit]

I agree, salex. Lori gets under my skin so much precisely because she could be any woman in my church.

[apandaaries]

 

But when I read their blog, I half expect them to defend stoning impure women. (After all, there is justification for it in the bible)   I have some fundie and fundie light relatives and in-laws, but even among them, the views Ken and Lori express are either rare or rarely spoken.  I will admit, while some of my friends and relatives were SAHMs many either worked when the kids were older or worked online or at home when the kids were older, though a few didn't.  Even the home school parents had two incomes from time to time. 

 

But Ken and Lori and their guest bloggers seem to set a tone that screams suburban christian Taliban.  While Lori and Ken haven't the balls to have lori dress frumpy/skirts only, they do have guest posters who preach it.  They believe any disagreement with them is disagreement with God Himself.  They seem to admire violent ways to get their way (Men disciplining wives, belts on babies) and they dismiss other versions of Christianity than theirs (even among their own ministers) as unGodly.   The fact they walk around so ordinary looking makes them scarey. 

And the fact they are incredible hypocrites should drive off followers, but as is often the case, it doesn't seem to. 

(Isnt' it fortunate that they came to the idea of having as many children as God would allow after they had been married 25+ years?) And that Ken doesn't think skirts only is required for Lori, etc etc etc. 

BTW, who defined Lori as a Godly Older Woman, other than Lori her self?

I could call myself Queen of Kansas, but it would not make it so. 

 

 

I have some fundie lite relatives around their area.  While they don't advocate beating children (at least that I've ever heard), they are heavy into the concept of submission.  One fundie lite cousin had a wedding where the officiant (not sure of his exact title, and it irritates me to call him some kind of spiritual leader, so I won't) preached about how the man was supposed to provide for the woman, how the woman's place was at home, how submissive the wife should be, etc, etc.  This was particularly enraging and uncomfortable for my SIL and brother, as he was then in law school and she was supporting them.  Also, while women could technically have opinions, if those opinions didn't match with the husband's, it would be best to reconsider those thoughts.  Oppressive, horrific stuff. (One quick happy note: that particular cousin still doesn't work, but seems to be done at two kids and has sent the older one to public school, where the child is thriving.  Hurray!)

The lack of frumpers and skirts is, in my mind, purely a result of their location.  There's no way people in the San Diego area could dress like that without a LOT of notice by the world.  They may say they choose to set themselves apart by their beliefs, but it's different to live in a fashionable area and always be frumping it up.  Lori can yell from behind her computer, but I don't think she really has the ovaries to take her beliefs to the public, where she knows she will be rightfully questioned.  I doubt Ken would want her in frumpers, since a third of her purpose is to be a Sex Giver (the other two thirds being a House Keeper and Child Raiser, of course, but the godly kind).  

Side note: when my daughter was young, she was given this dress by some well-meaning relatives. I would describe it as very "Laura Ingalls Wilder," AKA, nearly FLDS: long sleeves, long skirt, high collar, lots of buttons.  Hers had a berry pattern, so it was better than FLDS styles, but still jarring to the modern eye.  She LOVED that dress.  Once, she insisted on wearing it on a road trip to Long Beach.  We got stares *everywhere* and occasionally more vocal comments, like "Why is that kid dressed like a pioneer?"  Kiddo was too young to notice, but I did.  It wasn't that big of a deal, because kids are kids and sometimes their fashion choices are outrageous.  But I'd love for Godly Mentor Lori to experience something like that -- just for the experience (though it'd probably make her even more like Andrea than she already is).  

One other thing: I was cruising around her site last night and noticed that she says that God uses pain as a teaching tool (paraphrasing, it was late last night when I was reading).  I wonder how she reconciles her frequent illnesses with her religion.  Does she think God is punishing her? Teaching her? Using her pain so WE can learn?  Very curious about that part...

"Suburban Christian Taliban" is the perfect description for these people.  

[Koala]

In case The Godly Mentor decides to delete it, Terry has responded to Andrea's rude, argumentative, yet humble reply:

No Andrea, you don't understand. I don't need this to be about you. I have been you so I don't think that it is ALL about you. I am asking you to consider that this is at least IN PART about you, and your unwillingness to even do that speaks volumes on its own. But we can swap horror stories if you like. I have plenty. I know what it is to have the one and only woman I let into my life in years, whom I loved as a sister, look me in the eyes and confess years of resentment because of an off hand comment her own husband made to her about how much he puts up with that "Terry's husband wouldn't have to worry about." And the pain and gut wrenching loneliness for months. And frankly, I haven't let her or any other woman in like that since, and it's been a decade. See, I can see you because I have been there, done that. 

The mind, and by extension the soul, is a funny thing. All it takes is one or two instances of real hurt and rejection based on a thing and our minds think every thing someone says, doesn't say, does, or doesn't do, is about that thing. There were parts of your post that were unequivocally pure out and out projection. I'll quote a bit 

Sitting in my living room with a cup of coffee or tea, and a homemade treat, simply is not stimulating enough. They have other places they could be that aren't so intellectually a black hole. Frankly, they may feel that they will be captured into some ridiculous version of Leave it to Beaver, and I may force them to into a skirt and into the kitchen to prepare a dinner after demanding they get pregnant, bring their husband his slippers and submit to his demands, and round out the evening by cracking a whip to encourage them to organize their home to my mind numbing standards of domestic righteousness. 

This is pure projection, and there really is no other way to describe it unless someone has actually sat in your home and said this. I have read all your posts about the service you do. We do our share as well. None of that means you can't be in the grip of pride while you do it. 

Lori writes lots of posts here about expectations being relationship killers and all the women chime in and offer hearty agreement. That can be true of any kind of relationship, and it's not just overly unrealistic expectations of a positive nature that can cause this. 

I am asking you to consider how much of this is on you because I know it is almost an utter impossibility for you to not be a part of the problem. I mentioned that I haven't really let anyone in the way I had my other friend, who I am still cordial with. What I have done however is learned to manage my expectations, be a good friend (in heart and not just deed because people have instincts about these things whether you realize it or not). 

I asked the Lord to help me see His people, really see them, and he has helped me to do that. It was the key to healing my wounds and easing my built in distrust of His people. And of judging them when they are living righteously to the best of their ability. I am saying that you have a paradigm set up in your mind which you think is Scripture based, but it leads to pride. Modestly wrapped, but it's still pride. 

I still don't socialize much, and I still raise eyebrows when I make a comment about say, women's suffrage, LOL. But that's okay, because I can see the Christian mother in jeans, short hair and t-shirt manage her home well, and love her husband, and serve in the co-op by tending to scraped knees and acknowledge the work God is using her for even if she works part time. 

Having someone willing to socialize with me every now and again is nice when it happens but it rarely does. I can however call someone in a pinch and say, "can you help me out with this?" and reasonably expect a response. I respond as well. That is enough. I don't need to be accepted that way. 

The truth is that isolation is part and parcel of life for the American homemaker whether she is Christian or not. There have gallons of ink spilled on this particular phenomenon. People move a lot, are rootless, live life in the car, and few connections are made. Our culture is deracinated and quite atomized. 

But if I really believe in my heart that being alone is a badge of honor, a natural outgrowth of walking close to Him (and sometimes it is, then the last thing I need to be doing is whining about it. Rather, I should rejoice.

Andrea part of the problem?  Surely you jest!  

[polecat]

You know, this is going to pose a bit of a problem for Lori. Terri is a long-time reader of Lori's blog and fellow blogger. If Lori cuts her down or deletes her post, Terri's going to fight back. If Lori takes on Andrea, fireworks are going to FLY. Which lady is going to show God's grace and compassion, acting like a true Titus 2 woman? Which woman is going to out-holy her sisters? Which woman is going to emerge the victor of the submissive blogosphere? Stay tuned!

 

Personally, I'm rooting for "Terri." I don't espouse many of her views, but she's far more down-to-earth and likeable, imo, especially compared to most of the others.

[usmcmom]

You know, this is going to pose a bit of a problem for Lori. Terri is a long-time reader of Lori's blog and fellow blogger. If Lori cuts her down or deletes her post, Terri's going to fight back. If Lori takes on Andrea, fireworks are going to FLY. Which lady is going to show God's grace and compassion, acting like a true Titus 2 woman? Which woman is going to out-holy her sisters? Which woman is going to emerge the victor of the submissive blogosphere? Stay tuned!

 

Personally, I'm rooting for "Terri." I don't espouse many of her views, but she's far more down-to-earth and likeable, imo, especially compared to most of the others.

 Team Terri!!

[EmiGirl]

Where is Terri's blog? 

[apandaaries]

You know, this is going to pose a bit of a problem for Lori. Terri is a long-time reader of Lori's blog and fellow blogger. If Lori cuts her down or deletes her post, Terri's going to fight back. If Lori takes on Andrea, fireworks are going to FLY. Which lady is going to show God's grace and compassion, acting like a true Titus 2 woman? Which woman is going to out-holy her sisters? Which woman is going to emerge the victor of the submissive blogosphere? Stay tuned!

 

Personally, I'm rooting for "Terri." I don't espouse many of her views, but she's far more down-to-earth and likeable, imo, especially compared to most of the others.

I'm waiting for Ken to don his white armor, mount his high horse, and ride in to mediate/bloviate for an extended wall of text.  Remember today's bit of godly mentoring: Women are Commanded to be QUIET.  

[Florita]

Where is Terri's blog? 

Terry (Elspeth): https://terrybreathinggrace.wordpress.com/

Andrea: http://freedomoutpost.com/author/andrearoltgen/

A couple of rabbit holes to explore on a Friday night.

[polecat]

Terry (Elspeth): https://terrybreathinggrace.wordpress.com/

Andrea: http://freedomoutpost.com/author/andrearoltgen/

A couple of rabbit holes to explore on a Friday night.

Also https://lovingintheruins.wordpress.com/. She's a busy blogger -- an MRA honeybadger, iirc. Like I said, I'm not usually pro-Terri ... but in THIS case? Terri all the way! lol. 

 

eta: Ah, shoot, Terry. I'm not going back to fix all my misspellings. 

[EmiGirl]

Terry (Elspeth): https://terrybreathinggrace.wordpress.com/

Andrea: http://freedomoutpost.com/author/andrearoltgen/

A couple of rabbit holes to explore on a Friday night.

Oh! I know her now. She was a frequent commenter on Cabinetman's blog 

[Koala]

Dear Lori,

Divulging the details of your "counseling sessions" is both unethical and unbiblical.  Those you "mentor" should be confident that you will maintain their privacy.  As exciting as I am sure it is for you to hold up another couple as blog fodder, it's wrong- even though it has the added bonus of offering you the opportunity to point out how Godly you are.  It has actually left me wondering why your church (supposedly) continues to refer struggling couples to you, being that you so often "say what you should not".

You see the verse you like to quote regarding women being keepers at home has another part that you conveniently forget.

 

    1 Timothy 5:13-14 Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not. So I would have younger widows marry, bear children, manage their households, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.

Yesterday you wrote at length about the command for women to be quiet.  When you are writing a blog post to air the marital troubles of another couple on your blog, it would probably be a good time to reflect on that post, along with Bible verses that shine a negative light on gossips and busybodies who "say what they should not".
 

[polecat]

Dear Lori,

Divulging the details of your "counseling sessions" is both unethical and unbiblical.  Those you "mentor" should be confident that you will maintain their privacy.  As exciting as I am sure it is for you to hold up another couple as blog fodder, it's wrong- even though it has the added bonus of offering you the opportunity to point out how Godly you are.  It has actually left me wondering why your church (supposedly) continues to refer struggling couples to you, being that you so often "say what you should not".

You see the verse you like to quote regarding women being keepers at home has another part that you conveniently forget.

 

Yesterday you wrote at length about the command for women to be quiet.  When you are writing a blog post to air the marital troubles of another couple on your blog, it would probably be a good time to reflect on that post, along with Bible verses that shine a negative light on gossips and busybodies who "say what they should not".
 

She says Ken counseled the wife -- how does that fit in with the Titus 2 woman thing she's always espousing? 

(Growing up fundy, the pastors were never "supposed" to counsel women in troubled marriages. It was believed to be too much of a "temptation" for them. But this is Ken we're talking about, so .... )

[salex]

I think this is a made up story.  Zero detail, and in a couple where the man's nature is not to take control and the woman's nature is to take control, why would there be conflict.... they would be a happy couple, until some church like Lori's got to telling them they were doing it wrong.  If he doesn't want to take control, why has he left before?

There is likely a whole other level in this that Ken and Lori are putting the bandaid of submission on, if any of it is remotely true. 

I am trying to imagine what in my life would be so bad I'd turn to someone like Lorken for advice.....

 

[Koala]

I love how they refer to what a good husband he is, even though he's supposedly left his wife.  Anyone think they'd be referring to a woman as a "good wife" if she left her husband?  

[salex]

I love how they refer to what a good husband he is, even though he's supposedly left his wife.  Anyone think they'd be referring to a woman as a "good wife" if she left her husband?  

Have they ever referred to a couple they counselled as having a bad husband in the mix?  Weren't they the ones who said a wife reacting negatively to her husband's porn addiction was worse than the porn use?  

 

[Koala]

Ken:

Wisdom says we should all be conscious to not over-talk others or just go on and on.

Says the guy who isn't capable of writing a comment that doesn't resemble a small book. 

[jerkit]

Lori really feishizes dying of cancer and it creeps me out every time

[salex]

Lori really feishizes dying of cancer and it creeps me out every time

A few things about her post.  First off, while the woman was dying of cancer, Lori was grieving ... not so much for Cindy, but  I grieved the last few weeks of her life because I was too ill to go over and hug Cindy and tell her I loved her when her family had a party for her last month.

 So, remember, while Cindy was dying and everyone was praying for her to be healed  LORI WAS SICK TOO! (never forget that... too Sick for Cindy's party (or to go hug for Cindy at the party, seems a bit unclear) too sick to hand out halloween, ok to have a BBQ with people sitting around for hours after... 

What I find interesting about this post is how hypocritical LorKen are.  You know, how women are never, ever supposed to work outside the home?  How working women are the whore of babylon for stealing economically from men by working jobs men should have.  It seems they met Cindy because Cindy worked.

We met Cindy many years ago when we were thinking about putting our oldest, Alyssa, into the local Christian High School. She was the first one we met in the administration office. She was friendly and cheerful! She single-highhandedly sold us on sending our children there because of her joy. I'm sure she did this with many others.

 Now, Lori constantly warns against women working, or even volunteering, yet suggests that this woman made a big difference in the lives of the Alexanders and others, while still being loved by her husband and family.  How can this be? Lori and Ken have assured us that working is proof of evil feminism and that husbands and children of working women feel unloved and resentful and ignored. 

I can only guess this is an exception....

 

[Koala]

 

 So, remember, while Cindy was dying and everyone was praying for her to be healed  LORI WAS SICK TOO! (never forget that... too Sick for Cindy's party (or to go hug for Cindy at the party, seems a bit unclear) too sick to hand out halloween, ok to have a BBQ with people sitting around for hours after... 

 

 

I noticed that as well.  In fact, anytime someone has a life event that isn't Lori centered- wedding, birth, graduation, Lori has to highlight the fact that she's simply too sick to go.

Lori:

I just missed Steven graduating from dental school.  I just missed my best friend's son's wedding.  I have missed


many Christmas celebrations, weddings, birthdays, etc. in my life.  I lay at home with an ice pack on my neck while


everyone else is having fun.

 

However, don't feel sorry for me {but I do appreciate prayers!}.

She wrote a similar post about nearly missing her daughter's bridal shower and wedding.  

But PLEASE, don't feel sorry for her.  Pray...you got her text to pray right?????  But don't feel bad.  Just have fun.  She's used to being left out.
 

[Hisey]

I noticed the same thing. Lori could attend an hours-long bbq but couldn't go to see a dying friend at a her goodbye party.

I interpreted her sentence to mean that she was too ill to go to the party, not that she was at the party but unable to hug her friend. Because Lori's illnesses are not contagious. If she had gone to the party, it's unlikely she'd be too sick to hug her friend. You can't catch a bad neck, or a brain tumor, or head pain. 

I think Lori just felt "too sick" on the day of her friend's party. Cause that has happened before. It's very typically Lori to be "too sick" to attend a big event (or to attend it only after she's sent lots of texts to her friends and family asking for prayer requests, then making a big entrance)

I really feel bad for her kids. Each time one of them got married, Lori pulled the same shenanigans about being sick, needing prayer requests, feeling too bad to help out, and then showing up at the last minute. They must roll their eyes.