Pedophiles don't change their spots

[hoipolloi]

Ventrella is absolutely correct. Saying "I'm sorry" isn't enough. Glad also that Ventrella raises the issue of Wilson not being fit for leadership if this is the kind of thing he does.

Plagiarism IS theft and restitution of some sort, including money, is necessary. Would love to see the offended parties here go after the co-authors & Canon Press.

[DomWackTroll]

Randy Booth is trying to not get too down about it:

Quote

Nothing washes away hard days like dancing with granddaughters. We had a ball last night at the annual Southern Heritage Christmas Ball in Monroe, LA.

https://www.facebook.com/randy.booth.31/timeline/story?ut=43&wstart=0&wend=1451635199&hash=-5099110944619365250&pagefilter=3&pnref=story

How nice.

Oh, my... What do we have here?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208421650123988&set=ms.c.eJxVkMsNBDEMQjta4W~%3Bs~%3Bhsb5rJDDlakJ~_wABsekW2c2Ygo~%3B~_xMAcaI~_EukZtSaaPh6L~_Ej5ZKJatnibI4RHOsZTtl4RjmqWf20rad6aWSEnJ9Zd7sDoZ~_byPPSsGiZNgyYNZ3aTpPUWAm8ly0bi8kzT6NWkh1OqSb6Yc7WabLUfh8lLPg~-~-.bps.a.10208421632683552.1073741910.1388176939&type=3&theater

 

 

[sawasdee]

27 minutes ago, DomWackTroll said:

Oh, my... What do we have here?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208421650123988&set=ms.c.eJxVkMsNBDEMQjta4W~%3Bs~%3Bhsb5rJDDlakJ~_wABsekW2c2Ygo~%3B~_xMAcaI~_EukZtSaaPh6L~_Ej5ZKJatnibI4RHOsZTtl4RjmqWf20rad6aWSEnJ9Zd7sDoZ~_byPPSsGiZNgyYNZ3aTpPUWAm8ly0bi8kzT6NWkh1OqSb6Yc7WabLUfh8lLPg~-~-.bps.a.10208421632683552.1073741910.1388176939&type=3&theater

 

 

That's an. ....interesting..... collection of  ......historic......flags in the background

[apandaaries]

7 hours ago, sawasdee said:

That's an. ....interesting..... collection of  ......historic......flags in the background

Celebrating Southern heritage indeed.  How surprising that there were no people of color whatsoever involved, to dance with those flags around. I know Doug is a slavery apologist (along with his other fine qualities), so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the company he keeps.   

That Randy Booth is a very grumpy looking fellow.  

[meep]

Have there been any updates so far with the Sitler thing?

[onlyme]

http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2015/12/when-doug-wilson-misled-his-congregation.html

 

Just thought you guys would want to see Natalie's latest post. She's going through a transcript from a recent "Head of Household Meeting" (the fancy way for CREC people to call a church meeting-gag) and taking on Doug's lies paragraph by paragraph.

I don't know any updates on the Sitler case. Randy Booth has excused himself from being involved in the investigation in Natalie's case. 

Doug Wilson is going to be speaking at a conference on Darwin, but at the bottom of the page is the "pre-conference" seminars. There is one Doug will be giving on "Sexual Apologetics-Dealing with a Massive Cultural Orgy Porgy" I don't know... I feel like that should be a post count title or the name of a thread or something... What are they DOING up there in Idaho? Is there some massive orgy somewhere? 

http://graceagenda.com/

 

 

[MamaJunebug]

Read for about 5 minutes before I felt too nauseated to continue. 

To sum up very unoriginally, "How do you know when D. Wilson is lying? His lips are moving."

He's also relying on The Big Lie school of thought: "Repeat an unbelievable lie over and over, and people will begin to believe it."

May Natalie Rose continue to have the strength and support to call this wretch out on his damnable actions!

[Howl]

natalie greenfield has been dealing with this with such grace, such poise, such clarity, such sheer intelligence, that I think *almost* anyone reading her will understand the truth.  

What I don't understand is where her mother is in all this.  As I understand it, she is still a member of  DW's congregation.  Is she OK with believing DW's version of a parent-approved "relationship", which means approved by her?  

*almost* means there are still devoted DW leg humpers who will never believe it if DW doesn't say it. One such woman claims (I think in the Blog Mablog comments) that she was sexually abused and that sexual abuse victims lie, like she did, and therefore Natalie lied. I don't know what this woman lied about, but her point was just repellent. 

[apandaaries]

On 12/24/2015 at 0:58 PM, Howl said:

natalie greenfield has been dealing with this with such grace, such poise, such clarity, such sheer intelligence, that I think *almost* anyone reading her will understand the truth.  

What I don't understand is where her mother is in all this.  As I understand it, she is still a member of  DW's congregation.  Is she OK with believing DW's version of a parent-approved "relationship", which means approved by her?  

*almost* means there are still devoted DW leg humpers who will never believe it if DW doesn't say it. One such woman claims (I think in the Blog Mablog comments) that she was sexually abused and that sexual abuse victims lie, like she did, and therefore Natalie lied. I don't know what this woman lied about, but her point was just repellent. 

His followers are beyond illogical.  Their version of truth only comes from Doug; it's crazy.  To support their points, they look to his blog and writings for evidence.  

 Can't fathom what's going on with Natalie's mom, either.  The best I can imagine is that she fell for a charlatan, moved, saw her family destroyed, realized her daughter was horrifically molested under her own roof, and divorced her husband due in large part to this church's harmful influences.  Maybe she's too invested at this point to feel like she can walk away, so she's clinging to a sinking ship.  I couldn't do that, but everyone is different.  

[MamaJunebug]

Amandaaries, I share your sense of bafflement, but I recall a couple of other details that might help explain. 

Mr. Greenfield joined one of the Eastern Orthodox churches, and Wilson's henchmen non-helpfully advised Mrs. Greenfield that her husband thus was a heretic (at least, IIRC), which would've excused her for filing for divorce, I imagine, though that's certainly not one of the few approved reasons for divorce in any denomination I'm familiar with.

 Further, Mrs. G apparently owns a coffee shop/cafe in Moscow that's popular and successful. Done right, re$taurant$ make money in bunche$.  Now, why would Wilson and his cabal want to alienate and disfellowship a fine up$tanding woman like that, eh?  I mean, has Mr. G's occupation even been reported anywhere?  Heavens, he might well work for someone else (horrors).

So Mrs. G, not only accepting The Wilson Cabal's lame but effective condolences to her, also was probably treated with kid gloves and lied to. If indeed she moved her whole family (or even just herself) to a town to follow some prophet, already she has a Troo Believer's mindset. That makes her pretty easy to manipulate. 

[apandaaries]

2 hours ago, MamaJunebug said:

Amandaaries, I share your sense of bafflement, but I recall a couple of other details that might help explain. 

Mr. Greenfield joined one of the Eastern Orthodox churches, and Wilson's henchmen non-helpfully advised Mrs. Greenfield that her husband thus was a heretic (at least, IIRC), which would've excused her for filing for divorce, I imagine, though that's certainly not one of the few approved reasons for divorce in any denomination I'm familiar with.

 Further, Mrs. G apparently owns a coffee shop/cafe in Moscow that's popular and successful. Done right, re$taurant$ make money in bunche$.  Now, why would Wilson and his cabal want to alienate and disfellowship a fine up$tanding woman like that, eh?  I mean, has Mr. G's occupation even been reported anywhere?  Heavens, he might well work for someone else (horrors).

So Mrs. G, not only accepting The Wilson Cabal's lame but effective condolences to her, also was probably treated with kid gloves and lied to. If indeed she moved her whole family (or even just herself) to a town to follow some prophet, already she has a Troo Believer's mindset. That makes her pretty easy to manipulate. 

I believe Natalie's accounts mention that they moved due to that True Believer's mindset -- http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=4  Money is certainly a factor to keep her there in Moscow and in the kirk's fold, but still... The sunk-cost fallacy is certainly part of it, but, wow.  Sticking with the church and not the daughter?  That is very difficult for me to comprehend. 

Can anyone see the comments on this blog entry of his? Justice and the Ad Hominem: https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/109934.html  This is the entry where he I think he's hidden them, which is fascinating.  I may or may not have been engaging in the commentary there, and it seems a bit odd that the comments are now gone.  I can see comments on other entries.  He really can't tolerate dissent, can he? 

[onlyme]

The comments appear to fall off the posts after they age a certain amount. It isn't just that post that they are off. I once asked him why he kept scrubbing and he actually responded that he didn't know why it was happening, and that he wasn't aware of it until I had asked. 

Of course, I'm sure Doug wouldn't lie. 

[MamaJunebug]

@amandaaries

How can Wilson read that entry by Natalie Rose and still stand firmly by the unrepentant child-rapist? 

No wonder his wife, son and daughter-in-law fall into lockstep with him.  Anyone who can be that heartless toward a 13-/14-year-old "lamb" "in his flock" surely would have no trouble cutting a blood relative off at the knees if they dared disagree with him. 

...Natalie's story: haunting. Wilson's glib and aggressive word-diarrhea against her:  repulsive. 

-------

Back to Mrs. G, and why she'd stay where she did.  There might  be such a cacophony in her head at how it all went so wrong when it had all been so right.  Maternal guilt is a fact of life, from the minor missteps to the monstrous things that a mother "should have known about."  Mrs. G hasn't written so who can really say?  I want to believe that she's told Wilson to stay the eff away and is working toward some kind of peace with her daughter. 

So blisteringly sad, that Wilson sided with the perpetrator at all, but  to the insane extent that he did!---and has ground down so many already crushed lives, in the process. So infuriating!  

[apandaaries]

11 hours ago, onlyme said:

The comments appear to fall off the posts after they age a certain amount. It isn't just that post that they are off. I once asked him why he kept scrubbing and he actually responded that he didn't know why it was happening, and that he wasn't aware of it until I had asked. 

Of course, I'm sure Doug wouldn't lie. 

Yes, I sort of realized that after doing more clicking around.  It's very odd; comments are closed after awhile, which makes sense, but then when I click on my account, I can see my posts and the rest of the blog comments.  Strange.  

@MamaJuneBug, I have no idea how people can read her account and then go on to defend Doug and his actions.  He works so hard to deflect blame and accuse others of misdeeds.  What's astonishing is how many people take his words at their value and decry everyone else's accounts.  Everyone else involved is angry, lying, untrustworthy, etc., but Doug is a shining example of virtue...even when he's throwing a victim and her husband under the bus.  If you happen to disagree, the commenters just look for or try to invent ways to criticize your character to avoid the topic at hand.  This from a church that prides itself on its logic and rational thinking; it's just bizarre.  

One thing I've noticed in the very few accounts provided on the kirk's "Women Freed" blog is that Doug is also very careful to continue to point out to these various victims that they are also to blame for their "sins."  For example, one woman had been drugged and raped by a former acquaintance, and didn't discover until after she was a married mother.  She wrote,

Quote

 
In stories like mine, so many different feelings can flood the mine. For me, it wasn’t anger or resentment. I felt filthy. Dirty. Unlovely. I felt like a whore. One man’s words shot straight through my heart. Sending me back. Forcing me to remember my shameful and ugly past. The past I had just said goodbye to. Now I was a wife and a mother. To have my past come back, and have it hit them was too much. I was broken-hearted for them.  I had let them down. I felt sorrow. Deep sorrow and grief. And I mourned. Mourned for my new husband and for our new growing family. And mourned for the new life that we were building. I had done this. And I was undone.

But from our first meeting, Doug Wilson preached the gospel of forgiveness to me. He spoke to me about the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ. He encouraged me in the newness of life that I had found in Jesus. And I believed him. I did not question the goodness of God, and I did not hold on to the filth I felt. Being a recently born-again Christian, I had seen for myself the richness and beauty that life in Christ provides. And so, I turned to the Lord with Doug Wilson's steady guidance, and laid my burdens at the cross. I laid down the ugliness I felt inside about what had happened to me. I laid down the noise in my head of the past, flickers of an old life. And I laid down my sorrow. With Pastor Wilson's counsel and my husband's support, I was then able to extend forgiveness in my heart to “John,” and I even prayed for his salvation. With the help of the Holy Spirit, I was able to confess my sin. “He who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm” (Proverbs 13:20). Companion of fools, that was me. I had to face the fact that I had chosen that fast crowd, and I had loved it. Repentance and peace. Cleansed and renewed. I felt freed.

(bolding, italics, and enlarged font all me.) So because she discovered she'd been drugged and raped, and then felt dirty (not unusual for rape victims), but Doug helped her confess her sin.  That is sick.  

Or this woman's report, a woman who'd been abused as a child, then raped again in college:

Quote

 

How funny and narcissistic I was, thinking that my sins were so novel and precious. What would 22-year-old me think of me now? I'm a happily exhausted mom, so I don't really qualify for having a salty past, right? Unless I'm wearing my "Raped in '03" shirt, I assume I'm safe from speculation, but I hope that other young women have more wisdom than I did. Wisdom enough to know that they are not alone, not when the statistics have us at such high numbers, not when Jesus Christ washes it all away.

...Unless the help someone wants is constant back rubs and perpetual victimhood. To say that there aren't consequences -- that would be facile. Sin has consequences -- my sins and the sins of my abusers and rapist. 

 

I'm so very confused about how her abuse and rape were her fault, or how being raped gives her a "salty" past.  WTF are they teaching and preaching over there? If that is what people are being taught, and Natalie's mother is still so deeply involved, I fear for her mental state.

[onlyme]

He keeps proudly showboating that blog and it's so freaking sick. For one thing, these ladies can't seem to write a full sentence of their own construction. They flow from one Christian cliche to another. And the self abuse in the name of everything holy makes my stomach just churn. They don't realize how sick and gross it all sounds, and how it just shows how they HAVEN'T actually healed from anything. But they are doing a good job of masking it all with flowery fake bathroom potpourri. I read one post and couldn't stomach anymore. 

It reminds me of that video the Jeubs put up to prove what a happy, healthy family they are after Cynthia accused them of abuse, and it just kept proving how sick it all was. They can't see it, they're so absorbed in it they think everyone thinks the way they do. 

[Howl]

5 hours ago, amandaaries said:

Women Freed quote: ...Unless the help someone wants is constant back rubs and perpetual victimhood. To say that there aren't consequences -- that would be facile. Sin has consequences -- my sins and the sins of my abusers and rapist. 

The thing about the "Freed Women" site is that on the face of it, it is sharing about being healed from sexual abuse through being washed clean by Jesus.  They've taken something very beautiful (healing from sexual abuse) and turned it to something so unspeakably mean, because they are tainted by Doug Wilson's ugly way of thinking.

 ...Unless the help someone wants is constant back rubs and perpetual victimhood is HTFU Doug-speak to slap down the abused who disagree with his practice of protecting abusers.   

 

 

[onlyme]

http://sitler.moscowid.net/2015/12/30/moscow-pullman-daily-news-chaperones-for-fixated-pedophile-in-training-again/

Sitler update

[onlyme]

http://www.xojane.com/issues/stacey-rambold-cherice-morales

This article has been floating around my facebook. It isn't about Doug directly but it does indirectly remark on how Wilson treated Natalie was to heap abuse on abuse and his response has been to highlight how incompetent he is. 

I'm kind of cranky because his daughter in law, Heather Wilson, wife to Nate, has been trying to justify his behavior on twitter. 

When they do stuff life that I have to go back and retweet everything Natalie has written. 

[bea]

I am never, ever going to understand how Doug Wilson can try to re-victimize Natalie in an attempt at justifying his behavior and decisions. She's the one who caused all this trouble, I guess, by being taller than Jamin and possessing an almighty vagina before which all men are helpless. Or something. How can anyone, ANYONE, believe for even a split second that a pedophile who groomed and abused a young girl is NOT THE BAD GUY here, that the young girl was just as culpable, if not more, in her molestation. This is the tune Doug "The Douchecanoe" Wilson is singing and watching people jump on his bandwagon of "Natalie is just a troublemaker hiding her own guilt" is horrifying. Even just on Twitter, the people scolding her for publicising her abuse because she was part of it so she had some responsibility for it and she's making poor, poor Pastor Wilson into a target for her anger when he did nothing wrong, she's so unfair, it probably didn't happen anyway, she ought to be ashamed, blah blah blah. Natalie is a goddamned HEROINE for going public with this and sticking to her story and making sure she's heard so that other girls know it's not their fault, no matter what their Pastor or parents or church elders say.

I am also never going to understand how his congregation is any different than a cult. They move to a remote Idaho town, which is essentially run by the church, and everything they do becomes entwined with the church, everyone they know is in it, it's a situation that SCREAMS cult to me.

[libriatrix]

23 minutes ago, bea said:

Natalie is a goddamned HEROINE for going public with this and sticking to her story and making sure she's heard so that other girls know it's not their fault, no matter what their Pastor or parents or church elders say.

AMEN

24 minutes ago, bea said:

 

I am also never going to understand how his congregation is any different than a cult. They move to a remote Idaho town, which is essentially run by the church, and everything they do becomes entwined with the church, everyone they know is in it, it's a situation that SCREAMS cult to me.

Yeah, this is a question I'm chewing on. My gut reaction is that it's not quite cult-level, but I haven't been able to pinpoint if that's true or just something I want to believe because I was in it. 

Doug Wilson DEFINITELY has way more control than is normal and healthy.

[onlyme]

On 9/11/2015 at 5:23 AM, Howl said:

What an ass -- still as arrogant and threatening as ever:

 

 

Natalie Rose, on the other hand, writes about her abuse with honesty and grace, and with deep compassion for other victims.

 

Not sure, but I'm starting to think that Katie Botkin attended Christ Church for at least part of her life, so knows Doug Wilson up close.

Katie has never been a member of CC and I think she's mentioned attending once or twice. Her connection is through an ex husband, who had run-ins with DW in regards to a zoning case, and other personal relationships. She blogged about it at one point. She does know a lot of people. 

24 minutes ago, libriatrix said:

AMEN

Yeah, this is a question I'm chewing on. My gut reaction is that it's not quite cult-level, but I haven't been able to pinpoint if that's true or just something I want to believe because I was in it. 

Doug Wilson DEFINITELY has way more control than is normal and healthy.

No, it's a cult. He threatens people's livelihoods, he dictates people's political involvements, people who post things criticizing him or supporting Natalie get phone calls, emails, meetings requested, in other words... The Spanish Inquisition. 

[Howl]

I'm a bit concerned about Katie Botkin, just because it's been quiet on her blog for almost two months, and hardly anything on FaceBook.  Hope it's just because she's super busy with work and not health issues or....(paranoia here) hoping that Doug Wilson didn't get to her legally in some way that shut down her blogging.  

Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board went to Moscow, Idaho before Christmas, IIRC, to talk to people there to get both sides of the story.  She met with Heather Wilson (Doug's daughter) for coffee and a long chat and reported on that, but there have been no other posts about her visit there or discussions about anyone else that she talked to.  Zip.  

Both Katie Botkin and Julie Anne are super sensitive to legal repercussions.  Katie makes sure every detail she writes in her blog has bombproof factual back up.  Julie Anne has been hit with a SLAPP suit by her former pastor and she won, so she isn't one to back down.  Still, the silence is odd. 

Two other bloggers are following the Doug Wilson/Christ Church issues (moscowid and cicerokirk). Moscowid is taking the interesting approach of quoting from Doug Wilson's own blog or past works every day and letting people comment.  

Cicerokirk hasn't posted anything directly related to Doug Wilson since Dec. 1. 

 

[older than allosaurs]

11 hours ago, bea said:

I am also never going to understand how his congregation is any different than a cult. They move to a remote Idaho town, which is essentially run by the church, and everything they do becomes entwined with the church, everyone they know is in it, it's a situation that SCREAMS cult to me.

Moscow is too big and too populated with secular university staff and students to be a cult town in the manner of Antelope, Oregon, with the Rajneeshees or some of  the FDLS.

But clearly Doug would like to have that kind of control, and for people enmeshed in the church, boarding students at their houses, working for one of his offshoot programs, I wouldn't be surprised if it amounts to the same thing.

The number of his blogposts that focus on politics, the necessity of Christian government, the perils of flexibility on any doctrinal stance whatsoever----it all adds up in my mind to the desire for total control.

 

[MamaJunebug]

Liked Howl's most recent post not because of its content (I too await Katie or Julie Anne's further fact-finding) but because I too fret that they may have been muzzled. Forget the source but IIRC the Moscow newspaper sadly failed to report in depth on previous Wilson b.s., which could indicate that Wilson has the n/p in his pocket.  Nauseating thought, but it's happened before.

i count on my wonderful FJ-mates to report on crap Wilson's posted -- I can't stand to go to his site. It makes me feel grimy just to look at his greaseball-haired images. 

[onlyme]

I don't know Katie personally, I don't want to give that impression at all. But we do hold some loose mutual acquaintances. I'm 99.9% sure that if anything really bad was going on with her, I would have heard. I'm sure she's either really busy with work or meticulously crossing all her "t"s and dotting her "i"s.