Josiah Duggar - Part 3 Now with lost heart pieces

[JillyO]

Yes it is the man's family name.  But the advantage is that there is a system by which a woman keeps her name and her children share her name.  It is not complicated at all. It is just what you are used to.

Most kids master it before they go to school.

I didn't mean that the system is complicated, but simply that writing out something like "the children's father's father's name" is. And I can see the advantage in having it clear who is whose parent without anyone having to change their name. I simply wanted to point out that it is still a patrilineal naming custom, and thus not all that different from traditional non-hispanic American/most of Western European naming customs.

Not sure why you are being defensive, if you are. Your post sounds a little defensive.

[EmCatlyn]

That system is not really used anymore. If you want to adress a couple is Mr Sam and his wife, pr Mrs Sam and his husband (or the other way around, yay equality ), no woman is Mrs de hisname anymore. I have never actually heard anyone younger than 60 ise it

Interesting.  I believe  it is still used in some parts of Latin America. At least I have an acquaintance in Panama who is in her 30s who goes by her last name de his last name.  

I think it is a good system to connect the family names, but it would be more egalitarian if both the husband and the wife used it. (If the man were "de" his wife's name also.)     Still, it is a little unwieldy, so I can see why it is fading.

 

[EmCatlyn]

I know about all of that, no disrespect. I've just seen things in my life that because I don't really have a sway either way to change my name or keep it would sway me to change it when my kids get to school age.

I worked at a school that made every student get signed in and out by a parent or guardian. They had to show ID, blah blah, and if the last names didn't match they had to go into the files to make sure that person was a person who was allowed to pick them up. Just small hassles like that are what I'm talking about. Also parent/teacher conferences where I've seen teachers assume the parents aren't together and talk to the student like they come from an unstable background (not saying those raised by one parent or two parents from different households have unstable home lives, just saying what these teachers assume). Plus having to answer questions about if the kids are mine and yadda yadda. Some places aren't really as caught up as places I've lived in the past, and I don't really feel like explaining myself for 20+ years while all my kids are in school. Very small hassles to some people, especially if they feel really strongly about keeping their name, but I can see it wearing on me.

No disrespect intended for your choice either.  All I can say is that even living in a fairly conservative area, the hassles I had were minimal.  I always made sure people understood our situation and it really wasn't uncommon.  When signings in and out were necessary, the names of the people who were allowed to take the kid out were listed. They did not have to prove a relationship to the kid.  

Anyway, I wasn't trying to tell anyone  what to do, only trying to share my experience.

[EmCatlyn]

I didn't mean that the system is complicated, but simply that writing out something like "the children's father's father's name" is. And I can see the advantage in having it clear who is whose parent without anyone having to change their name. I simply wanted to point out that it is still a patrilineal naming custom, and thus not all that different from traditional non-hispanic American/most of Western European naming customs.

Not sure why you are being defensive, if you are. Your post sounds a little defensive.

Ah, I see.  Yes, you are right, it is still patrilineal. But at least it acknowledges both parents for one generation.  And that wasn't defensive-- that was  "on one of my hobby-horses." (Naming customs.)  

[Holiday Road]

I know about all of that, no disrespect. I've just seen things in my life that because I don't really have a sway either way to change my name or keep it would sway me to change it when my kids get to school age.

I worked at a school that made every student get signed in and out by a parent or guardian. They had to show ID, blah blah, and if the last names didn't match they had to go into the files to make sure that person was a person who was allowed to pick them up. Just small hassles like that are what I'm talking about. Also parent/teacher conferences where I've seen teachers assume the parents aren't together and talk to the student like they come from an unstable background (not saying those raised by one parent or two parents from different households have unstable home lives, just saying what these teachers assume). Plus having to answer questions about if the kids are mine and yadda yadda. Some places aren't really as caught up as places I've lived in the past, and I don't really feel like explaining myself for 20+ years while all my kids are in school. Very small hassles to some people, especially if they feel really strongly about keeping their name, but I can see it wearing on me.

As another school district employee, I co-sign this. I totally respect the right to do whatever you want with a name, but omg it can make official records keeping difficult!  Our database uses legal names, and from this we generate everything from school awards to legal transcripts. I've had parents demand new awards because they choose to have their children go by nicknames, step parent surnames, mother's maiden name if the parents split, etc.  One wanted an entirely different first and last name on an honor roll award. I always try to accommodate, but they never understand that we can't just change the database because they don't want to go do a legal name change.  It is just one name for the parent, but for the schools it can be dozens they must try to track  

 

There is is the human error part, as well, particularly when you put special education in the mix. Separate database, but the two must read each other. If you forget a hyphen, that name becomes a middle name and they read as two different children. If you swap the order of the last names, same thing. If you move and use a different surname for the kid, we may not be able to get records or current IEPs. 

 

I guess my point is, names can be super complicated so commit to a choice and try not to deviate from it!

[Shadoewolf]

Not snarking, just curious: How do you like eg Christmas cards to be addressed? One my friends is in a de facto relationship. Their two kids have his last name, his partner still has her own, her son for a previous relationship has his dads, so like your family, there's three different surnames.  You can't really address it to the Jones family.  Or can you?

(last year I didn't send Christmas cards, just Facebook messages. Much easier!)

Mostly our families just send a single small manila envelope addressed to me or Hubby and stuff everyone's cards into it.

[CuttySark]

As another school district employee, I co-sign this. I totally respect the right to do whatever you want with a name, but omg it can make official records keeping difficult!

Heh. Due to a series of unfortunate circumstances involving adoption, divorce, maiden names and birthnames, there ended up being five surnames in my immediate family alone. The school eventually gave up and started sending things home to "the parents of CuttySark." 

On the other side, the province I married in (Quebec) decided, for ease of record keeping, that changing your surname at marriage is not allowed -- it's actively illegal. That way they can track everyone by birth name. Kids tend to end up with one or the other, rather than hyphenation. They actually changed my MIL's surname back to her maiden name retroactively, even though she'd married and changed her name in a country where it was the standard practice, before they emigrated. 

(Our kids have the headship's surname, mostly due to the aforementioned name clusterfart in my family -- there's no continuity there at all, so why bother perpetuating it?)

[Jeebusismycopilot]

This discussion actually came up tonight while at dinner with friends. We were asking our friend if she was planning on taking her betrothed's name when they get married and they have decided to completely meld their names into one totally new name that they will both take. I thought that was kind of cool - especially since their new last name will now be Smiles. It totally suits them and it is adorable. Wouldn't work for me. My last name would be a wreck if we tried that!  But it was just amusing that it came up in the conversation and I also thought it was a totally unique and interesting way of dealing with the scenario. 

 

 

 

[AlysonRR]

I chose to hyphenate because I wanted us to have a family name and yet, I had publications and credentials in my maiden name. Plus, my last name is, shall we say, Unusual, and his is, let's say, Common. After 26 years spelling Unusual and making jokes about it, I didn't want to be a boring Common, LOL. And I wanted people who looked up research in my field to find my journal articles and know it was the same person.

So I became Ms Unusual-Common, the kids have that last name, and my husband remained Dr Common professionally, though socially we're the Unusual-Commons Family.

I'll be interested to see what, if anything, my kids do, particularly if they want to marry someone with a hyphenated name. They actually like that their name is so unusual, though they do sign their school papers Firstname U-C, instead of writing out both names.

Oh, and one of the reasons I wanted a family name is because of something that happened to one of my coworkers. She had a different name than her children. One day, an emergency phone call came in from one of her kids' school and they asked for Mrs KidsLastName. *None* of us knew her by that name - the person who answered the phone told the school no one with that name worked there. It was more than an hour before she got the message from her partner that her child had a broken arm and had been taken to the hospital.  

One scary episode, and unusual (it wasn't a very friendly lab!) but it definitely moved me more toward having the same name as my kids.

[elliha]

I kept my maiden name and my husband kept his. Our child has his name. We entertained letter her have a double name but felt that having three versions of names in one family was a little too much. Standard in our country is the wife taking the husband's name but I would say that all the other options are gaining in popularity. In my own circle most have taken their husband's name but one couple has a double name, one couple has made their own name from a combo of their own names and two couples have done what we did, kept their own names and not changed them. I am not sure that it will be expected that the wife will take the husband's name in the future from the way it is around me. 

When we had our kid though we were reminded  when she had a check up at the doctor that we needed to inform the authorities and the dad needed to sign paternity. They looked a bit surprised when I said that we were married despite having different names. I thought someone who would meet so many different couples and children would not be surprised that one could be married and have different names. (In Sweden the child of a married couple is assumed to be the husband's and he does not need to sign that he is the father of the baby. If you are not married the man needs to sign a document that he is the father and had sex with the woman when the baby was conceived and the woman needs to swear that she did not have sex with someone other than the claimed father. If there are questions they will have a DNA test but normally not if they are in agreement)

[Vivi_music]

Heh. Due to a series of unfortunate circumstances involving adoption, divorce, maiden names and birthnames, there ended up being five surnames in my immediate family alone. The school eventually gave up and started sending things home to "the parents of CuttySark." 

On the other side, the province I married in (Quebec) decided, for ease of record keeping, that changing your surname at marriage is not allowed -- it's actively illegal. That way they can track everyone by birth name. Kids tend to end up with one or the other, rather than hyphenation. They actually changed my MIL's surname back to her maiden name retroactively, even though she'd married and changed her name in a country where it was the standard practice, before they emigrated. 

(Our kids have the headship's surname, mostly due to the aforementioned name clusterfart in my family -- there's no continuity there at all, so why bother perpetuating it?)

Yeah. Same in my family. My sister-in-law changed her name when she married my brother but they married in Sweden. She still goes by her married name in society, her friend call her that, at work too. It's just her papers are all under her maiden name, even when she had her baby it said ''baby Davidson'' and not my bro's name. So technically you can chance your name. The state and government simply won't recognize it.

That being said, lots of babies in Quebec ended up with the two names in the 80's early 90's. It was a big trend to hyphenate or have the two names. I know. My mom did it with us.   I have Mom and Dad name in that order.

[Holiday Road]

This discussion actually came up tonight while at dinner with friends. We were asking our friend if she was planning on taking her betrothed's name when they get married and they have decided to completely meld their names into one totally new name that they will both take. I thought that was kind of cool - especially since their new last name will now be Smiles. It totally suits them and it is adorable. Wouldn't work for me. My last name would be a wreck if we tried that!  But it was just amusing that it came up in the conversation and I also thought it was a totally unique and interesting way of dealing with the scenario. 

 

 

 

This made me lol. After 13 years of marriage my headship and I were talking about our surname. I grew up with an abusive father and when I got engaged I was f-ing delighted to have the chance to dump my maiden name. My husband waited 13 years to tell me that part of him wanted to take my maiden name, because he can't stand his adoptive parents.  OMG I was so annoyed with him!  If he had only said something way back then, we could have picked an awesome new last name for our family!  We could have gone sci-fi and been the Solos, or fantasy and been the Bagginses. Presidential with the Roosevelts or Washingtons. Disney. Kent. Cuthbert. I can literally think of a hundred exciting choices for our last name. I feel really deprived!

[Sherryburger]

Until the mid 1800's, Danish and Norwegian surnames were usually formed by the father's first name with the -sen or -datter added. My great-grandfather, Peder Larsen, was the son of Lars Pedersen. Peder's wife was Martha Kristoffersdatter, daughter of Kristoffer Jensen.  And after marriage, the wife usually kept her last name.  It would be very difficult to trace these Scandinavian relatives if it weren't for the fact that the Lutheran church kept detailed records of every baptism, confirmation, marriage and death that occurred for church members.  And the Danish government (not sure about Norway) had very extensive census records that help the modern genealogist keep things straight. Still, there could be several Ole Nielsens in one little village. Some would add a profession or placename at the end to differentiate themselves from the Ole Nielsen two houses down.

[CreationMuseumSeasonPass]

I just got married Sept. 26 and have been in the process of getting my name changed with all the legal documents (driver's license, voter ID, social security card etc) I remember when I first got engaged I called my mom with a lot of stress because I love my maiden name and didn't really want to change it. My new husband, who is so low-key, told me he didn't care either way. Well, my mom told me on that phone call that she experienced the same anxiety I was going through when she married my dad. Basically, she told me it was my decision, but it helped when having a family to all have the same last name, to be one cohesive unit. Anyways, I was able to let go of my worries from then on out and realize my new surname is just as wonderful as my maiden name. Plus, I'm a news editor and I've kept my maiden name as my professional byline, so I feel like I have two names, one at work and one at home. Also, growing up, my friend's mom kept her maiden name when she got married. My friend loved it because every time a solicitor would call for Mrs. Jones, my friend would say, "No, she's dead." Because, to her, Mrs. Jones was her grandma, not her mother Ms. Smith.

[Toothfairy]

Are you from Latin America?  

A friend of mine and his wife both hyphenated their names. Instead of her being Mrs Smith-Jones, they are Mr and Mrs Smith-Jones. 

I didn't really feel like going through all the name change stuff. But this actually sounds like a good idea. 

[nastyhobbitses]

This discussion actually came up tonight while at dinner with friends. We were asking our friend if she was planning on taking her betrothed's name when they get married and they have decided to completely meld their names into one totally new name that they will both take. I thought that was kind of cool - especially since their new last name will now be Smiles. It totally suits them and it is adorable. Wouldn't work for me. My last name would be a wreck if we tried that!  But it was just amusing that it came up in the conversation and I also thought it was a totally unique and interesting way of dealing with the scenario. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I think that the portmanteau name is cool, but you run the risk of a really messy, unwieldy last name if the two names just don't fit together well. I know that the former mayor of Los Angeles (Antonio Villaraigosa -- Villar + Raigosa) did it and it worked, but maybe it wouldn't work so well for, say, Amal Clooney (Amal Cloonuddin? Amal Alamooney?)

Speaking of portmanteau names, Natalie Portman really missed out by not marrying a guy whose last name was Teau.

[ArmchairTurnip]

I agree with all the aforementioned who think it shouldn't be a big deal if a woman keeps her own name when she marries.  I myself made that choice, and my fundie-lite mother was FURIOUS with me.  I remember her stamping around our tiny little newlywed-apartment kitchen fuming, then marching out into the living room where my fiancé was sitting and shaking her finger in his face:  "Are you going to let her get away with this?"

It was the first time she had shown him her (prodigious, hair-trigger) temper; up until then she'd done her level best to keep sweet in front of him.  And he - offspring of a dope-smoking, family-circle-sharing nominal-Catholic mother who would cut off her own hand before lifting it to strike one of her children - was completely baffled, both by Mom's anger about the name thing and by the notion that she would act one way around him and another around me.  I think he said to her, "What makes her name less important than mine?", and my mother threw her hands into the air and then stomped off into another room to slam some pots together.

We never had kids, so at least we were spared Part Two of the argument.  I can only imagine.

[princessmahina]

I still don't know if I plan to change my name or hyphenate or keep it the way it is. The only thing that really bothers me is that whatever I choose, someone's going to judge me for it :/

[Emmi]

I kept my name on marriage too (UK), seems to be most common amongst professional woman who tend to marry in their 30s and have established themselves already. 

 

[nokidsmom]

I agree with all the aforementioned who think it shouldn't be a big deal if a woman keeps her own name when she marries.  I myself made that choice, and my fundie-lite mother was FURIOUS with me.  I remember her stamping around our tiny little newlywed-apartment kitchen fuming, then marching out into the living room where my fiancé was sitting and shaking her finger in his face:  "Are you going to let her get away with this?"

It was the first time she had shown him her (prodigious, hair-trigger) temper; up until then she'd done her level best to keep sweet in front of him.  And he - offspring of a dope-smoking, family-circle-sharing nominal-Catholic mother who would cut off her own hand before lifting it to strike one of her children - was completely baffled, both by Mom's anger about the name thing and by the notion that she would act one way around him and another around me.  I think he said to her, "What makes her name less important than mine?", and my mother threw her hands into the air and then stomped off into another room to slam some pots together.

We never had kids, so at least we were spared Part Two of the argument.  I can only imagine.

I witnessed Part Two of the argument with a coworker when she had her first child.   Her own mother read her the riot act over the names she and her husband had chosen.  IIRC, it was over first names and that they had chosen a name in the husband's family versus my coworkers.  I was baffled over a mom berating her adult daughter over a decision, that was hers and her husbands to make, as if she were a naughty child.

Mr. No and I didn't have kids but if that had happened, from either side of the family, let's just say that that conversation would be very, very short. As in "click" or "there's the door".

 

[Furbabies]

I kept my name after I got married.  Sure made getting divorced a hell of a lot easier.

My ex-MIL used to say she could tell which of her boys was in trouble, when the school called and asked for Mrs. X or Mrs. Y.

[isarhenne]

I had to keep my name when I got married because my wife was born with a hyphenated name (which was still possible in the 80's), so I couln't hyphenate mine with her's. Besides that, not changing your last name or hyphenating last names when you get married is really really really frowned up on in Germany. It was en vogue in the 70's but now when a women hyphenates her name she is immediately put in the category "condescending b****", and called a "feminist". And the word feminist in Germany is one of the worst things you can call a women there. I don't know how it got such a negative connotation...A lot of times women themselves say " I hate feminists!".

My wife (with her hyphenated name) is constastly called out at work for it. Before she married me they told her to look for a man with a nice simple short last name so she can change it. But guess what, she also kept her name and is proud of it because it's so rare to be born with it. Plus it's a nice conversation starter; the look in people's faces is always priceless.

My wife and I are the only women I know who did not change their last name when they got married. I get weird looks when I get asked: "How was your wedding?" "It was great , thank you!" "So, what is your last name now?" "Oh, I kept my maiden name" "What??!!!??? And your husband still wanted to marry you (most people assume that I have a husband)".

 

And for children it's easy: The who has to go through labor can give the child her last name! Easy and simple.

 

 

 

[AmazonGrace]

I worked at a school that made every student get signed in and out by a parent or guardian. They had to show ID, blah blah, and if the last names didn't match they had to go into the files to make sure that person was a person who was allowed to pick them up. Just small hassles like that are what I'm talking about.

That's just lazy and irresponsible on the part of the school I think... They'd have let everybody with same last name as the kid to pick them up, just assuming that they must be authorized..?  It could be parents who lost custody, irresponsible uncles, the crazy grandma, etc. If it's a common last name the kid might be picked up by half the town.

 

Oh, and one of the reasons I wanted a family name is because of something that happened to one of my coworkers. She had a different name than her children. One day, an emergency phone call came in from one of her kids' school and they asked for Mrs KidsLastName. *None* of us knew her by that name - the person who answered the phone told the school no one with that name worked there. It was more than an hour before she got the message from her partner that her child had a broken arm and had been taken to the hospital.  

One scary episode, and unusual (it wasn't a very friendly lab!) but it definitely moved me more toward having the same name as my kids.

 That seems like a quite easily avoidable school error as well... I have always signed my full name on each and every paper the school would be getting my work phone number from.

[August]

This made me lol. After 13 years of marriage my headship and I were talking about our surname. I grew up with an abusive father and when I got engaged I was f-ing delighted to have the chance to dump my maiden name. My husband waited 13 years to tell me that part of him wanted to take my maiden name, because he can't stand his adoptive parents.  OMG I was so annoyed with him!  If he had only said something way back then, we could have picked an awesome new last name for our family!  We could have gone sci-fi and been the Solos, or fantasy and been the Bagginses. Presidential with the Roosevelts or Washingtons. Disney. Kent. Cuthbert. I can literally think of a hundred exciting choices for our last name. I feel really deprived!

Until your daughter falls in love with John Sackville, and where would she be then???? She could hardly hyphenate.

[EmCatlyn]

As another school district employee, I co-sign this. I totally respect the right to do whatever you want with a name, but omg it can make official records keeping difficult!  Our database uses legal names, and from this we generate everything from school awards to legal transcripts.

I've had parents demand new awards because they choose to have their children go by nicknames, step parent surnames, mother's maiden name if the parents split, etc.  One wanted an entirely different first and last name on an honor roll award. I always try to accommodate, but they never understand that we can't just change the database because they don't want to go do a legal name change.  It is just one name for the parent, but for the schools it can be dozens they must try to track  

There is is the human error part, as well, particularly when you put special education in the mix. Separate database, but the two must read each other. If you forget a hyphen, that name becomes a middle name and they read as two different children. If you swap the order of the last names, same thing. If you move and use a different surname for the kid, we may not be able to get records or current IEPs. 

I guess my point is, names can be super complicated so commit to a choice and try not to deviate from it!

I totally agree. That is why I think it makes sense for people to go with the same legal name all their lives.  

You talk about the problem of databases and records, but really the examples you cite are of people who want their kids' names to be different from their legal names.  If everyone sticks to their legal names, things would be simpler.  If people didn't change their legal names, it would be simpler still.

From my end of the education system the biggest headache is when a student who appeared on your roll at the beginning of the semester with one last name legally changed her name midway through the semester and, without warning, appears under a different name (in a different place on your class list) on the roll for grading.  Then there are the women who change their names legally but their email address remains their old last name.  And the sad cases, of women who are stuck with their exes' last names, because they have diplomas or publications or other distinctions under their old married name.

In a world where it is okay to change your gender, changing your name when you marry or divorce is only a small bureaucratic hassle.  

In my view, it is a totally unnecessary hassle, but people should do what feels right for them.