Possible Lawsuit for Josh

[Wingnut]

I had a thought:

I wonder if this is the first time that Josh's victims have heard any criticism about how things were "dealt with"?

They are so isolated from the outside world that it makes sense that they were not exposed to how situations like this are normally dealt with. It could be causing shock and anger.

It is a good reason why the alleged person allegedly suing might be suing.

That is a very good point.

[hennypenny]

It kind of makes sense. However, I'm getting the impression you know more than what you're saying. Maybe I'm wrong.

Ok, from here on out my opinions are not based on any knowledge. I know what y'all know.

I'd like to address some of the thoughts about why people didn't talk about it.

Those who knew via government agency should not have talked however, when church members and extended family and the government employees talked with each other, that is how it all became common knowledge. So it was a mix of family and church, who don't talk about it and government employees that can't talk about it. Either group was very hesitant to share information.

As for why I didn't talk about it (and many others) is that it was done. There was no more to report. No more things to say. It was over. Josh married and moved out, the end. The girls were young and famous. All of us couldn't imagine the hurt and pain it would cause them. I felt sorry for them. Sibling incest in our neck of the woods is more prevalent and definitely more secretive than others. So you had a bunch of sympathetic women not wanting to out them and hurt the girls.

HOWEVER, when they attacked the LGBT community, people were very angry. On both sides, church/family AND government employees. Those people had long chats and well, they struck back at the Duggars the only way they could. They wanted to knock them down, silence them, hurt their brand. And by God, I do not blame them.

[Wingnut]

Ok, from here on out my opinions are not based on any knowledge. I know what y'all know.

I'd like to address some of the thoughts about why people didn't talk about it.

Those who knew via government agency should not have talked however, when church members and extended family and the government employees talked with each other, that is how it all became common knowledge. So it was a mix of family and church, who don't talk about it and government employees that can't talk about it. Either group was very hesitant to share information.

As for why I didn't talk about it (and many others) is that it was done. There was no more to report. No more things to say. It was over. Josh married and moved out, the end. The girls were young and famous. All of us couldn't imagine the hurt and pain it would cause them. I felt sorry for them. Sibling incest in our neck of the woods is more prevalent and definitely more secretive than others. So you had a bunch of sympathetic women not wanting to out them and hurt the girls.

HOWEVER, when they attacked the LGBT community, people were very angry. On both sides, church/family AND government employees. Those people had long chats and well, they struck back at the Duggars the only way they could. They wanted to knock them down, silence them, hurt their brand. And by God, I do not blame them.

On the bolded - did anyone worry that it could possibly continue with any children he would father?

I am not trying to judge the explanation you gave. I am really curious if it was just assumed that since he was married and away from the known victims that all would be ok from then on.

[socalrules]

Jim Bob and Michelle likely thought that Josh would never molest again because he could have sex on demand as a married man. I don't think it would occur to them that child molestation has nothing to do with lacking a legal sexual outlet.

[nokidsmom]

Jim Bob and Michelle likely thought that Josh would never molest again because he could have sex on demand as a married man. I don't think it would occur to them that child molestation has nothing to do with lacking a legal sexual outlet.

Agree. Plus listening to Kelly interview, JB kept referring to the situation as being "taken care of". So he and J'chelle had done what they thought was needed to be done, in their minds of course, never mind it was seriously lacking. But to them it was a done deal, move along, and I don't think they thought that any children that Josh had in the future could be at risk.

[nokidsmom]

Ok, from here on out my opinions are not based on any knowledge. I know what y'all know.

I'd like to address some of the thoughts about why people didn't talk about it.

Those who knew via government agency should not have talked however, when church members and extended family and the government employees talked with each other, that is how it all became common knowledge. So it was a mix of family and church, who don't talk about it and government employees that can't talk about it. Either group was very hesitant to share information.

As for why I didn't talk about it (and many others) is that it was done. There was no more to report. No more things to say. It was over. Josh married and moved out, the end. The girls were young and famous. All of us couldn't imagine the hurt and pain it would cause them. I felt sorry for them. Sibling incest in our neck of the woods is more prevalent and definitely more secretive than others. So you had a bunch of sympathetic women not wanting to out them and hurt the girls.

HOWEVER, when they attacked the LGBT community, people were very angry. On both sides, church/family AND government employees. Those people had long chats and well, they struck back at the Duggars the only way they could. They wanted to knock them down, silence them, hurt their brand. And by God, I do not blame them.

This makes sense. Actually I can see why people didn't talk about it. Folks hesitant to share and plus it being known after the fact. There's really not much one can do. It was the parent's responsibility to handle this via proper legal channels, getting counseling, etc. it wasn't and no one can do anything about it. No it's not ideal it leaves a lot to be desired. But I can see people wanting to protect the girls, not wanting them to get hurt further with rumors, disclosures and such.

[Wingnut]

Agree. Plus listening to Kelly interview, JB kept referring to the situation as being "taken care of". So he and J'chelle had done what they thought was needed to be done, in their minds of course, never mind it was seriously lacking. But to them it was a done deal, move along, and I don't think they thought that any children that Josh had in the future could be at risk.

I find that an incredibly sad and dangerous way of thinking. I really cannot find any other way of saying it.

[SassyPants]

I'm not seeing it as being protective, per-say, but rather, not my business; not my circus, not my monkeys . Most people would rather not get involved in something so personal and inflammatory. Plus, I am sure many just assumed that JB and M did the right thing and got the kids the help they needed.

This is one of those taboo subjects that just doesn't come up in everyday conversation.

[nokidsmom]

I find that an incredibly sad and dangerous way of thinking. I really cannot find any other way of saying it.

Absolutely. My mouth dropped when I heard the "taken care of" phrase which was mentioned several time, IIRC. And they came across as believing they had done all the right things. Their obvious bafflement over why this issue was a big deal was obvious.

[nokidsmom]

I'm not seeing it as being protective, per-say, but rather, not my business; not my circus, not my monkeys . Most people would rather not get involved in something so personal and inflammatory. Plus, I am sure many just assumed that JB and M did the right thing and got the kids the help they needed.

This is one of those taboo subjects that just doesn't come up in everyday conversation.

You said it better than I did. People really don't want to get involved in something like this. There's also the question of how much is real and how much is rumor in these things too. I used the term "protect the girls". Probably not the best way to describe it but also people might see this situation as having caused harm to the parties involved and they don't want to contribute to any more harm rather that it being a protection thing. I hope that makes sense.

[SassyPants]

Well, the Duggars do not live in our world. So, as much as their world of isolation, little education, not working for others [or seemingly ay all] strict courting rules...is foreign to us, I'd imagine the parameters of our world are unknown to them too.

Cults are not good things. They hurt and hinder more than they guide and protect.

[RosyDaisy]

When people don't come forward, it is highly likely there will be future victims. You can't change the past, but you can try to prevent future abuse.

[nokidsmom]

I am all for people coming forward and abuse being exposed however in so many situations it's complicated. Such as in this one with Josh. People hear it after the fact, assumptions are made that the right thing was done, there's no way to verify that the right thing was done (or not done in this case), people are hesitant to get involved in something so explosive, information is not shared for whatever reason, or it's incomplete, can you rely on the person sharing this information, there's so many factors why exposure doesn't happen. It's not ideal but unfortunately it's all very human.

[lostfemme]

Okay, so what I'm getting here is that victims of molestation or sexual assault of any kind might be better served by keeping things private. I know y'all aren't saying this specifically, but perhaps Jill and Jessa were better for having their sexual abuse hidden and treated through whatever channels the parents thought best, is that right? Then they could happily roll along with the reality show money train, allowing them to proceed with their prescribed lives and not even consider themselves victims at all.

Here we get into a thorny issue - as older women, with collective experience of sexual abuse either to ourselves or many of our friends, are we using young women to right wrongs in our own past? I have certain murderous rage fantasies, not against anyone who abused me, but against the men and women in my family who weren't interested in protecting me at all, but always zealous in their opinions of how I dressed, how I acted, how much I deserved whatever I got from the outside world. I'm not sure that living with that rage is any better than the blithe shrugs of Jessa and Jill, believing it's all behind them, if what some say here is true - that they would also be more angry if their sexual abuse were released to the public without their knowledge.

So what is to be done? How is this crime supposed to be handled if keeping it private seems best for a large portion of victims, like some have stated here? No matter how large the audience, the exposure of sexual crimes is very traumatizing for victims. Jill and Jessa are housing themselves within the Most Blessed, forgiving like it doesn't matter much anyway, and who is to say this isn't a valid form of moving on.

For myself, I don't feel much loathing for my abuser actually. He was acting out on a programming this society instills in men - take what you want, sympathy is for losers, women are bitches. I feel contempt for his tiny little brain. If my case had gone public, I wouldn't have felt much vindication unless the whole framework of my childhood was included. Being raised around people who would sacrifice their daughters rather than give up the absolute freedoms of men, rushing to protect all things male, is more damaging than anything else.

I believe Jessa and Jill should be angry with their idiot parents. But maybe that is because I am angry.

[justoneoftwo]

The thing is, reporting and punishing crime is not about the victims. That is why the state can pursue criminals even if the victims don't want to "press charges." Prosecutors and police, in theory, work for the state and try to improve society, not get the best outcome for victims. In an ideal world the fourth estate would do likewise. (This is not to say I believe that any of these groups do so, only that ideally they would and in theory the state actors do). Is there an interest outside of the victims to pursuing justice? I would say yes. There are victim advocacy groups, and they do great work, but the victims are not the only people that matter in these situations.

[SassyPants]

The thing is, reporting and punishing crime is not about the victims. That is why the state can pursue criminals even if the victims don't want to "press charges." Prosecutors and police, in theory, work for the state and try to improve society, not get the best outcome for victims. In an ideal world the fourth estate would do likewise. (This is not to say I believe that any of these groups do so, only that ideally they would and in theory the state actors do). Is there an interest outside of the victims to pursuing justice? I would say yes. There are victim advocacy groups, and they do great work, but the victims are not the only people that matter in these situations.

AND, as unfortunate for victims as this might appear, in the US, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty.

So, under our system of justice, we have collectively decided that is better for a guilty man to walk free, than for an innocent man to be imprisoned.

As far as we know, none of the people who knew of Josh actions were actual witnesses to the crimes, beyond Josh and the victims. I am sure given the nature of the offenses, most lay persons who knew about the purported crimes, were uncomfortable passing that information on-

[Four is Enough]

lostfemme, someone upthread remarked about how her assault caused her to feel a lack of control of her life. I would say that having someone reveal that about yourself, without your knowledge or consent, would be extremely similar to the loss of control instigated by the assault.

I don't think anyone is saying that victims are better off without treatment, etc. But I do think people are saying that it should be up to the victims themselves to "out" themselves... it would give them a modicum of control that might or might not help them process their emotional response to the situation, or might or might not give them a measure of closure of some sort.

[justoneoftwo]

AND, as unfortunate for victims as this might appear, in the US, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty.

So, under our system of justice, we have collectively decided that is better for a guilty man to walk free, than for an innocent man to be imprisoned.

As far as we know, none of the people who knew of Josh actions were actual witnesses to the crimes, beyond Josh and the victims. I am sure given the nature of the offenses, most lay persons who knew about the purported crimes, were uncomfortable passing that information on-

Yes, a very important point, and one which is often forgotten.

[zebra #13]

Every time I reread Alice's expose, I'm struck by how angry she is at the adult Duggars, and how much she wishes them to come to harm. As she herself admits, the matter *was* brought to DHS, the family *was* under supervision, and the girls *did* get counseling. In the normal way of things, none of this would ever have been made public at all. Trusting fellow church members is clearly NOT the way to go. . . .

I live in a tiny rural hamlet, by choice, but am, and have been for 20 years, astonished at the total lack of privacy in this situation. And have to say that at least 50% of the "facts" passed around are just not true. At all. In any way. I remember, vividly, arguing with someone about whether or not I was married to someone whom I'd just broken up with, lol! I wasn't, nor ever had been married to him, but the man with the rumor firmly in hand refused to believe me. . . . As for the gun. . . .

I'm just not so sure the sheer glee I see here so often is good for us, for them, or the world. Payback *is* a bitch. But it's also a very crude weapon wielded on behalf of justice. Just sayin. . . .

[hennypenny]

Listen, they could have carried on the next 50 years, going on about their weird fundie Gothard life, with their fake TV personas, blanket training, grifting and this town wouldn't have given a shit. Even though it is Arkansas this area is notoriously liberal leaning and very LGBT friendly. It is its own little pocket of normal in the crazy South. And those Duggars, they spread false rumors about what the ordinance was about. That robo call killed an ordinance that would have made our little pocket of the South such a great area to be.

I can't remember who said it but someone talked about it being a case of, "not my monkey not my circus". And I agree. It was none of our business.

I'm going to say that 99% of the people that knew about the Duggars did not know that it could be proven with a FOIA. *I* didn't even know that. When it broke I was all "ohhhh who is about to be fired or thrown in jail for contempt?" Well, maybe Laywers who were paying attention understood about the FOIA but lay people, they all thought it wasn't legal to take to the press. Rumor yes, proof no. I will say I found out that when the Oprah thing broke there were news crews showing up for the court date and the judge put a gag order (is that the right phrase?) and wouldn't allow the news reporters near or in the court house. So there was local news reporters that knew. This was the loudest secret ever known :lol: .

Is Josh a danger to his children? I'm going to say yes. He is. But just like my abuser went on to marry and have children (no matter what was told to authorities) so would Josh. What could have stopped him from marrying or being around other children?

[DeFrauder]

Josh married and moved out, the end. The girls were young and famous. All of us couldn't imagine the hurt and pain it would cause them. I felt sorry for them. Sibling incest in our neck of the woods is more prevalent and definitely more secretive than others. So you had a bunch of sympathetic women not wanting to out them and hurt the girls.

Is there really more sibling incest there than in other places? I would think that it would be the same everywhere. Your comment seems to be saying that people did not go to the authorities or tip off CNN or whatever because so many of the locals had experienced similar trauma.

The thing about Josh marrying and moving out. This is something that I have heard all over the internet as some sort of evidence that he has reformed. I don't think marriage has ever been a cure for sexual misconduct. It is more of a mask for sexual misconduct. I don't get why people would believe that was the end of it.

[DeFrauder]

Jim Bob and Michelle likely thought that Josh would never molest again because he could have sex on demand as a married man. I don't think it would occur to them that child molestation has nothing to do with lacking a legal sexual outlet.

Yes! It reveals the lack of education about sexuality that the Duggars have.

What frightens me is their idea that what Josh did is normal for curious young boys. So normal that they have arranged their entire lifestyle and architecture of their home into making sibling incest a challenge. Well, they have made heterosexual sibling incest a challenge, but gave no thought to same-sex sibling incest.

Even just the dress code for the under 12 girls. Who gets up in the morning and says "I need to dress my 3 year old girl in pants and then cover the pants with a skirt to make sure that they do not sexually attract their brothers or other males"? Who controls access to their daughters' bedroom by making sure that anyone who enters it must walk through the master bedroom just so they can ensure their sons do not diddle their daughters? Who makes all their male children sleep on a bus to prevent them from sexually abusing their daughters (is this one even true?)?

It is scary and CPS should not have been letting them handle this on their own.

[Trynn]

Yes! It reveals the lack of education about sexuality that the Duggars have.

What frightens me is their idea that what Josh did is normal for curious young boys. So normal that they have arranged their entire lifestyle and architecture of their home into making sibling incest a challenge. Well, they have made heterosexual sibling incest a challenge, but gave no thought to same-sex sibling incest.

Even just the dress code for the under 12 girls. Who gets up in the morning and says "I need to dress my 3 year old girl in pants and then cover the pants with a skirt to make sure that they do not sexually attract their brothers or other males"? Who controls access to their daughters' bedroom by making sure that anyone who enters it must walk through the master bedroom just so they can ensure their sons do not diddle their daughters? Who makes all their male children sleep on a bus to prevent them from sexually abusing their daughters (is this one even true?)?

It is scary and CPS should not have been letting them handle this on their own.

I don't think that one is true.... I know before one of the trips they had the littlest sleep on the bus so that they wouldn't have to wake in the morning to get on the bus... It actually made sense to me to do that.... I wish I could've done that on long car trips as a kid.

[Rescinded and Mended]

On one episode of 19 kids, Jim Bob and Michelle talked about having the boys sleep out in the stink bus while company was visiting, might have been the Bateses.

[mebeforee]

Ok, from here on out my opinions are not based on any knowledge. I know what y'all know.

I'd like to address some of the thoughts about why people didn't talk about it.

Those who knew via government agency should not have talked however, when church members and extended family and the government employees talked with each other, that is how it all became common knowledge. So it was a mix of family and church, who don't talk about it and government employees that can't talk about it. Either group was very hesitant to share information.

As for why I didn't talk about it (and many others) is that it was done. There was no more to report. No more things to say. It was over. Josh married and moved out, the end. The girls were young and famous. All of us couldn't imagine the hurt and pain it would cause them. I felt sorry for them. Sibling incest in our neck of the woods is more prevalent and definitely more secretive than others. So you had a bunch of sympathetic women not wanting to out them and hurt the girls.

HOWEVER, when they attacked the LGBT community, people were very angry. On both sides, church/family AND government employees. Those people had long chats and well, they struck back at the Duggars the only way they could. They wanted to knock them down, silence them, hurt their brand. And by God, I do not blame them.

This reminds me somewhat of the radio talk show that addressed the Duggar molestations shortly after the report was 'leaked'. This dude infuriated me because he spent like an hour discussing the Duggar molestations but his only problem with it was that the story coming out to the mainstream public 'ridiculed the cause of Christ'. He didn't seem to care that Josh molested young girls or his sisters, it was all about the reputation of Christianity. He had known about the molestations for years, something he learned at some kind of religious/political event that had a number of big name Christians at it, and that he was warned about Josh Duggar and any interaction he might have with the family (as were other prominent people at the event) because of Josh's past. He also implied that Josh Duggar's employers at FRC had full knowledge of his molestations. Somehow, none of these people felt the need to report it - and, I have to say, it's weird to criticize people here for being 'afraid' to share information about this issue. Regardless of what people personally felt about the issue, the matter WAS reported and the police and DHS DID get involved with the family back in 2006. Even for those of us (I'm guessing the vast majority) who don't think for a second that Josh's construction therapy could have helped him overcome his sexual aggression or pedophilic tendencies, there would then be the hope that law enforcement would have ensured that he got the therapy he needed and that the victims of the assaults also received community support and counseling. That is clearly not the case in retrospect, but unless you know how the legal system and FOIA works, you wouldn't have known to look for documentation proving that they DIDN'T get help. We like to believe the best about our social systems and their efficacy and it doesn't seem illogical to do that until you are proven wrong.

And let's not forget that until In Touch posted the actual police report, any time the Josh molestations were brought up on this very forum, they were slammed down as rumor with no evidence. Should people have persisted? Said they knew it was true because they were from the area? We have the same situation right now with this 'Harry' dude. He's claiming insider info but none of it is verified, so people are interested (because other molestation rumors have been proven true, let's not forget that part), but nobody is believing it completely. It would be no different for anyone else on this site discussing local rumors. It's not about 'fear', it's about seeing the way people treat those kind of unverified claims in this forum. People are skeptical, and they should be. But it's not an environment where someone who has heard rumors will feel comfortable coming forward with them, because one poster will beg for the information and the next will call you a liar.

My guess is that the reason it took so long for this info to come out is a general pattern of people either assuming someone else has already reported it to the relevant authorities, assuming that whatever actions the family claims to have taken to help their son (because they don't seem so concerned with helping the daughters) has 'cured' him, assuming that the government agencies involved handled the matter in the appropriate way, and assuming that God cures all. None of them are true 100% of the time but whatever belief system a person subscribes to, it's easy to not feel personally responsible for the safety of the Duggar children. There are a thousand safety nets out there that people rely on to make sure kids are protected, and it's hard for people to go out on a limb just in case all those systems have failed.

I think when a community has an open secret like this, it's hard to know what to do when you first hear about it. Is your first assumption that you need to report it? Probably not. When someone else tells you something that they likely didn't even hear directly from the family in question, you would figure that it's already been brought to the attention of law enforcement, or the church. You may also assume that it's a rumor, if it's second or third-hand information. IDK, I have a hard time trying to blame the community when to all accounts, people WERE trying to bring this stuff to the attention of the wider world. How many times do you try before you give up? You can't cure the willful ignorance of other people, even those in positions of power. The blame lies on Josh himself, and then on his parents. Then it falls on the police officer who brushed it under the rug, the church elders who didn't insist on proper counseling, and the (adult) family members who knew what had happened but didn't try to get real counseling for all the kids involved. After that you can try and blame the community for failing to report to law enforcement, but that's a bigger stretch because you can't really claim that people KNEW what was going on, only that they heard a rumor. People on FJ didn't report the Josh molestations to the local law enforcement either, because there was no concrete evidence aside from posts on message boards. Oprah got the same unverified information and got the cops on it. So are we to blame? No. Neither are people in that community who heard rumors and didn't do anything about them. There's especially no room to blame anybody for not reporting to FJ. Because we're interested in what is happening there, but wtf, there's no importance in informing the internet about any of this. The people reporting it are mainly doing it for clicks and ratings, not because they want to help those kids. Any help they get is incidental to the main reason the story is being spread around - ad revenue.