Possible Lawsuit for Josh

[lostfemme]

How financially stable were the family of the other kid? I am not sure how much it has to do with morality as much as it has to do with freak factor. All these TLC shows are somewhat like a circus sideshow. They do not want people that act sane and normal as it is boring.

I couldn't tell by watching the child and her mother if there were any financial issues. They seemed fairly middle class, nice average home, and they weren't wasting mountains of money on pageants. The kid was so popular on the show that she received lots of freebies, trips, costumes and TLC kept bringing her back for their fake pageants (TLC gave up following the circuit after a while and set up pageants on their own and auditioned children, that's the revelation on TWOP years ago.)

On her last show, the mother did something very impressive. The girl lost a contest. She started crying, really sobbing, she was miserable being mobbed by fans, too. The mother pulled her away from the cameras, took her into another room to console her, but TLC kept their mikes on so they could hear everything. After that, the girl disappeared from the show. I'd like to believe the mother simply "had it up to here" with TLC.

I can tell you that TLC would have moved mountains to give this kid her own show. She was that charismatic and kind of freaky as well.

[ShepherdontheRock]

HAHA! According to the gossip rags! Someone stole her super verbose journal and published it. She wrote a lot about spanking the kids and how mad they made her and whatever. I read she likes to spank with wooden spoons. Even some of her close relatives came out publicly to say that she abused the kids.

Here is a telling youtube: .youtube.com/watch?v=l99uaPOmFOI

THe book those kids eventually write will rival "Mommie Dearest".

At least the Duggars do not look like they are going to kill their children as soon as the camera gets turned off.

To me, that makes them all the scarier, knowing what we know about them...

[gustava]

MODS: Thanks for changing the thread title.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

HAHA! According to the gossip rags! Someone stole her super verbose journal and published it. She wrote a lot about spanking the kids and how mad they made her and whatever. I read she likes to spank with wooden spoons. Even some of her close relatives came out publicly to say that she abused the kids.

Here is a telling youtube: .youtube.com/watch?v=l99uaPOmFOI

THe book those kids eventually write will rival "Mommie Dearest".

At least the Duggars do not look like they are going to kill their children as soon as the camera gets turned off.

My thing is that IF there's proof she actually beats her children, and I mean beat not spanks because there's a legal (and psychological difference), why in the hell wouldn't there be DHS reports and all that crap? Why would she still have custody of the kids? Wouldn't Jon have used that against her? Wouldn't Maddie and Cara, who are now old enough to speak before the court in custody cases, move to get out of the house?

And, if you're talking about her brother coming out and speaking out against them, he and his wife have been flip flopping between sides on their divorce to whatever stance will allow them to bring in more money. They've been doing that since Jon's affair was first discovered. So have a few of their "friends" that have been featured on the show. I wouldn't believe a word any of them say that they didn't have concrete, irrefutable evidence to back up their claims.

[lascuba]

So no lawsuit filed, huh? I don't think I've ever been disappointed over a tabloid rumor not being true. :lol:

[MistofRain752]

Do you have a citation for this claim that incest is related to sexual oppression---I think you might mean repression?

It is my understanding that sexual repression causing sexual misconduct is a "belief" as opposed to scientific fact. Plus, there is all kinds of sexual misconduct among populations that have a high degree of sexual freedom.

I will agree with you that some of the people might have been blocking out former abuse and not wanting to think about it. I am not so sure that I would go as far as to say that the entire region is in denial about being victims of or perpetrators of sexual abuse.

I really think that the idea that certain "backwoods" or "hillbilly" populations have abnormally high rates of incest are just bigotry. I am not calling anyone a bigot. Sometimes we have racist or bigoted ideas, even though we are not racists or bigots. Its just that these racist and bigoted ideas get spread around and people think they are fact.

I would like to say something here that we as a society usually turn our backs on. I had a friend that was a nurse and worked at a very private mental hospital for rich kids. This person told me so many stories that I could write a book about it. One was about a 9 yr old girl who had a vagina of a 30 yr old because her father, a well know rich surgeon in the area had sexually abused her since she was 5 yrs. old. Was he prosecuted? NO! Another was a 12 yr old boy who liked to try and set himself on fire because his father was sexually abusing him, his dad was a well known attorney in the area. Was he prosecuted? NO! Money talks just like so many of the rich and famous. For instance Bill Cosby, Harvey Milk and Hugh Hefner, just to name a few. It is a very deep sickness in our society that we have turned our backs on the most innocent victims. What Josh Duggar did was wrong, but I think we have hung him out to dry. He made a mistake when he was a young teenager. I believe it was done out of curiosity. No I am not defending him. Sexual abuse happens in all walks of life!

[DeFrauder]

I would like to say something here that we as a society usually turn our backs on. I had a friend that was a nurse and worked at a very private mental hospital for rich kids. This person told me so many stories that I could write a book about it. One was about a 9 yr old girl who had a vagina of a 30 yr old because her father, a well know rich surgeon in the area had sexually abused her since she was 5 yrs. old. Was he prosecuted? NO! Another was a 12 yr old boy who liked to try and set himself on fire because his father was sexually abusing him, his dad was a well known attorney in the area. Was he prosecuted? NO! Money talks just like so many of the rich and famous. For instance Bill Cosby, Harvey Milk and Hugh Hefner, just to name a few. It is a very deep sickness in our society that we have turned our backs on the most innocent victims. What Josh Duggar did was wrong, but I think we have hung him out to dry. He made a mistake when he was a young teenager. I believe it was done out of curiosity. No I am not defending him. Sexual abuse happens in all walks of life!

I gave you a like for most of the stuff you said. I can't bring myself to agree that a 14-15 year old serially molesting his siblings and others is just "being curious". A mistake is something that happens ONCE or maybe twice--not a minimum of 5 different times with a minimum of 5 different children. The fact that there was a 5 year old victim is especially disturbing. At least 4 of the victims were pre-pubescent. That is not a mistake.

Sexual abuse most certainly does happen in all walks of life. It is not the domain of the poor or the uneducated. However, rich or poor, almost none of these cases result in a conviction.

[DeFrauder]

So no lawsuit filed, huh? I don't think I've ever been disappointed over a tabloid rumor not being true. :lol:

Do they allow gag orders in Arkansas?

[DeFrauder]

My thing is that IF there's proof she actually beats her children, and I mean beat not spanks because there's a legal (and psychological difference), why in the hell wouldn't there be DHS reports and all that crap? Why would she still have custody of the kids? Wouldn't Jon have used that against her? Wouldn't Maddie and Cara, who are now old enough to speak before the court in custody cases, move to get out of the house?

And, if you're talking about her brother coming out and speaking out against them, he and his wife have been flip flopping between sides on their divorce to whatever stance will allow them to bring in more money. They've been doing that since Jon's affair was first discovered. So have a few of their "friends" that have been featured on the show. I wouldn't believe a word any of them say that they didn't have concrete, irrefutable evidence to back up their claims.

Apparently there have been DHS reports and all that crap. I don't follow this show or family, but I believe there is a custody case going on.

As for the beating/spanking: she allegedly used a big wooden spoon to spank them and does it in anger. Whatever the case is, it is a really bad divorce/custody battle and it shouldn't be on tv.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

[snip] What Josh Duggar did was wrong, but I think we have hung him out to dry. He made a mistake when he was a young teenager. I believe it was done out of curiosity. No I am not defending him. Sexual abuse happens in all walks of life!

Done out of curiosity?! Hell no. Once or maybe twice, usually within the same age range is exploration to satisfy curiosity about the opposite sex. Repeatedly over a year with many different victims and different ages is hardly exploration. His crimes are evidence of a sexual impulse that he failed to control. The fact that he was compelled to do this to his sisters and others even though he knew it was very wrong means Josh was driven by sexual desire of some sort, not curiosity. Please stop saying it was just curiosity.

[Nic]

Done out of curiosity?! Hell no. Once or maybe twice, usually within the same age range is exploration to satisfy curiosity about the opposite sex. Repeatedly over a year with many different victims and different ages is hardly exploration. His crimes are evidence of a sexual impulse that he failed to control. The fact that he was compelled to do this to his sisters and others even though he knew it was very wrong means Josh was driven by sexual desire of some sort, not curiosity. Please stop saying it was just curiosity.

14 yo's are NOT CURIOUS about 5 yo's.

[greycat]

I really think that the idea that certain "backwoods" or "hillbilly" populations have abnormally high rates of incest are just bigotry. I am not calling anyone a bigot. Sometimes we have racist or bigoted ideas, even though we are not racists or bigots. Its just that these racist and bigoted ideas get spread around and people think they are fact.

I live in part of the US that is very "hillbilly". Now people are not going through the streets playing banjos and what not, well for the most part at least :lol: . So hillbilly stereotypes suck for me where I am surrounded by some that really love to live up to the stereotypes.

There is one instance in the town that my husband grew up in, that we live in now, that is very disturbing and well known throughout the community. A girl at his high school got pregnant by her father and kept the baby. This was almost 10 years ago. According to him nothing really happened to the dad they both just went on living their life. He has pointed out to me numerous times the father and daughter HOLDING HANDS walking down the road..... (isn't this completely illegal??)

Like the Duggars, how is something so known in a small community (like noted from a post a couple pages back) not dealt with? It disturbs me that in both cases the abuser is still allowed in the same home and part of their lives. Everyone knows but nothing is done.

[DeFrauder]

I live in part of the US that is very "hillbilly". Now people are not going through the streets playing banjos and what not, well for the most part at least :lol: . So hillbilly stereotypes suck for me where I am surrounded by some that really love to live up to the stereotypes.

There is one instance in the town that my husband grew up in, that we live in now, that is very disturbing and well known throughout the community. A girl at his high school got pregnant by her father and kept the baby. This was almost 10 years ago. According to him nothing really happened to the dad they both just went on living their life. He has pointed out to me numerous times the father and daughter HOLDING HANDS walking down the road..... (isn't this completely illegal??)

Like the Duggars, how is something so known in a small community (like noted from a post a couple pages back) not dealt with? It disturbs me that in both cases the abuser is still allowed in the same home and part of their lives. Everyone knows but nothing is done.

I love the banjo. I want to live where people are walking down the street with them! :-D I went to Branson once and I kept hearing this song about growing tomatoes and beans or something and now I just want to hear that song again.

That is an interesting story. If she was over the age of consent when the authorities found out then I don't know what can be done. She may have also denied the allegations to the authorities. Maybe he is not really her father, but her stepfather. Very weird.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Apparently there have been DHS reports and all that crap. I don't follow this show or family, but I believe there is a custody case going on.

As for the beating/spanking: she allegedly used a big wooden spoon to spank them and does it in anger. Whatever the case is, it is a really bad divorce/custody battle and it shouldn't be on tv.

DHS reports are different than DHS cases. Anyone can make a claim, and DHS is supposed to follow through. That would result in a report. I mean an actual case. If there was real, substantiated evidence of her beating the kids, DHS would have removed the kids following the investigations.

[mebeforee]

But we wouldn't have access to either, would we? I thought all DHS stuff was locked down unless it involved police in some capacity. I feel like, unless there's an actual change of custody or police involvement, we won't know what the truth is without the kids themselves speaking out. Because there are a lot of conflicting interests there that would motivate rumor and claims that might be without basis.

Kate is kind of an intrinsically unlikable person, she just rubs people the wrong way in general, and I think for that reason the idea of her spanking her kids with a spoon is largely seen as 'abusive' where people would view the Duggars doing the same thing (as we know they do) as just 'discipline'. I know that people here at FJ are more inclined to see abuse in the Duggars' actions because we are aware of the context in which they're 'training' their children, but when it comes to the larger public... there's a huge difference in the way people view the two families and I think it's primarily based in the personalities of the parents rather than in the specific actions they may engage in. I don't think Kate's abusive just for spanking with a wooden spoon, but I can see why it would be a concern because she has shown in the past to have trouble controlling her emotions, and has been openly overwhelmed by having so many very young children at once. The Duggars give the impression of being self-controlled because the parents delegate the childrearing to the older sisters instead of being responsible for it personally. That gives the impression that they're compassionate parents who have raised their children well, when the reality is they're robbing their children of personal rights while forcing the oldest daughters to act as mothers.

Anyway, I guess I'm just hesitant to put too much stock in rumor about Kate because a lot of it comes from us witnessing her at her very worst (and my god, that show clearly brought out the worst in her). Michelle's worst happened before the cameras ever appeared, when her oldest kids were little (and then later, when her oldest kid started molesting the younger ones probably due to a combination of unacknowledged/unaddressed emotional problems and lack of adult supervision). The context in which these families are discussed in the media and magazines and online (which also informs our own readings of the families) is from a fundamentally different point in their lives, which makes it hard to know what's really happening with either one. Unless the police get involved and the records are public, it's all rumor and where the Duggars have traditionally gotten ratings by being so righteous and pure, the Gosselins always got their ratings by being a hot mess.

[mebeforee]

14 yo's are NOT CURIOUS about 5 yo's.

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep looking past this. Not necessarily here (where I feel it's more giving the benefit of the doubt that he could be harmless nowadays), but in the wider public (where it's used to dismiss the traumatic impact his actions had on others). When first looking at the case, I had the thought 'well, he was 14'... but it didn't stop. It wasn't a 14 year old looking at a 13/12 year old, and that was it. The activity continued and got worse and worse, aiming toward more vulnerable victims with less ability to articulate or prevent what happened to them. And I think the report showed that he was actually 15 when he molested the youngest one, at 5 years old. That's a high school freshman molesting a kindergartner. Yes, they may have been stunted in some ways because of their emotionally repressive upbringing. No, that doesn't make it any less serious that a boy of high school age was forcibly fondling a kindergarten-age child. And in front of other children, even, which shows an extremely alarming lack of self-control. Like, a controlled molester who waits until the child's alone to attack them is scary enough. But one who literally cannot control his actions is even worse, because it seems less likely that he would then gain the ability to prevent further abuse. (But hey, God worked through construction projects in Josh's heart and gave him the WILLPOWER to not molest. Right?)

[Nic]

So no lawsuit filed, huh? I don't think I've ever been disappointed over a tabloid rumor not being true. :lol:

Yeah how is ol' Harry?

[RosyDaisy]

I love the banjo. I want to live where people are walking down the street with them! :-D I went to Branson once and I kept hearing this song about growing tomatoes and beans or something and now I just want to hear that song again.

Look up the Tennessee Valley Old Time Fiddler's Convention. It's held every October in north Alabama. Good music, good food, good time.

[Palimpsest]

Yeah how is ol' Harry?

It took some sleuthing but I found him.

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[MatthewDuggar]

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep looking past this. ...The activity continued and got worse and worse, aiming toward more vulnerable victims with less ability to articulate or prevent what happened to them. ...But one who literally cannot control his actions is even worse, because it seems less likely that he would then gain the ability to prevent further abuse.

I agree. Considering the fact that it has not been said that he got any sort of true therapy there is a huge possibility that he's offended again and more than likely his own children. Josh's complete silence on the matter concerns me quite a bit as well. He was the outspoken one of the bunch. I would have expected that he publicly said something, anything. To me, most people that have something this serious be resurrected years later would certainly be profusely remorseful. Perhaps an interview is yet to come and they are just waiting for the right time, the right interviewer and the right $$$. In the meantime, I will continue to believe he's still a danger.

[2manyKidzzz]

I feel that is cannot be assumed that he is NOT a danger. It is all very sad. And the younger kids now just deserve some normalcy and a continuation of life and some activities. I wonder if the Youngers have even been made aware of this. :stir-pot:

[lostfemme]

Josh has probably been advised by lawyers not to say a damn thing. For once, he's STFU. I'm personally grateful not to hear his claims that Jesus changed him. Other families with sexual abusers in their ranks don't need to think that they can pray that sin away like good ol' Josh Duggar.

Michelle did ask Erin Merryn, of Erin's Law, to come to the Duggar house and discuss inappropriate touching with all the younger children. Erin's focus is on making children aware and unashamed to talk about it. Erin has said that nothing was off limits during their meeting and she sang the praises of Michelle and how sexual abuse was discussed during her time at TTH.

That was a surprisingly mature and secular move on Michelle's part. The younger kids must know something about Josh's behavior, even obliquely.

[RosyDaisy]

That should have been done by Michelle and JB.

[mebeforee]

Perhaps they didn't feel equipped to address sexual abuse with the kids, and wanted someone who does it professionally and would be prepared for the kind of questions the kids would ask. I think it's great that they had Erin Meryn come in. Even if it's something that most families would discuss privately with their kids (and the Duggars may have done that also), given their past sexual abuse history I think it's a good thing that they wanted some extra help in educating their young children about the issue. Most kids in schools have additional information from their health classes that supplement what their parents might talk to them about when it comes to sex and sexual abuse; the Duggars don't have the benefit of that so they decided to have a person come to their home to talk specifically about it. Even though they handled the issue so poorly before, I think this particular choice was a step in the right direction of keeping their children safe.

And I also don't want to hear from Josh on the matter. I think the voices that deserve to be heard (if they want) are the victims of the assaults. I don't want any defensiveness or preaching from Josh, I don't want to hear what HE learned from his abuses, I don't want to hear about how the press coverage is affecting him emotionally, and I don't want him to prop up his children's probable confusion and alarm about the situation as a reason that people should just let it go. Yes, all those things may be true - maybe he did reform, maybe he is suffering emotionally, maybe his children are scared because they don't know what's going on. But this whole ordeal can not be turned into a Poor Josh situation, and I can't imagine anything he could say that wouldn't turn it into that. The focus needs to be on the victims of assault, not on the well-being of the molester. He can stay silent for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned. There is no rationale he could give for his actions that would make them any less horrible and whether it's his lawyers or his own choice not to address the molestations further, I don't care. He definitely should NOT come out and talk about it.

[JenniferJuniper]

I know others noted this as well, but I just watched the Kelly interview straight through for the second time and was truly struck how much both Jim Bob and Michelle bent over backwards to minimize what went on in their house.

They insisted the three oldest victims (family friend and Jill and Jessa) had no idea what happened until they were told later. We know this is a lie because at least one of them talked about a blanket being pulled off.

They insisted the littlest victims were only touched for a few seconds and had no clue anything bad had happened. So child molestation really doesn't count if the victims are very young and the perp - with his soft and tender conscience - says he only did it for a few seconds?

Yet Jessa herself called Josh "sly". And three years later, one of the young victims burst into tears during the police questioning.

Whenever Kelly tried to ask about any concern for their daughters - and I'll give her credit, she tried several times - they kept bringing it back to Josh, how they know he'd changed, how good of him it was to come to them and confess each time, how Jesus forgives all, how they'd never give up on their son. They expressed no real concern for any of the other children, victims or potential victims alike.

And I'm pretty sure the "accredited counseling" they got was years later and mandated by the system once the story finally came to light. They tried to make it sound like it was contemporary with the abuse.

The Duggars are liars.

All we really about what happened is that Josh assaulted at least five girls over at least a one year period in his parents' home. I'm not inclined to believe his parents' attempts to minimize what he did to the girls and I don't believe he ran to his parents and confessed each time. More likely he confessed when confronted, but there is no one to contradict Jim Bob and Michelle. I think it's likely Josh's actions were more forceful, more frequent, and much more frightening for the victims than the Duggars will ever admit to.

Which brings us to the non-family victim. Let's just imagine for a second that her memories are very different and she considers what Josh did to her more akin to an attempted rape. She was young, as Gothards her parents didn't want to make an issue of it at the time, but now she's a married adult and she's pissed. Pissed that people know she's a victim (as surely many around her do), pissed that the Duggars are lying their asses off, and pissed at her parents for sweeping it under the carpet. (It's doubtful she received any counseling).

On the surface a lawsuit makes sense under such circumstances, even with the statute-of-limitations issues, but any good attorney will sit her down and explain what will happen during the process. She'll be asked all sorts of uncomfortable questions and the defense attorneys will try to make her look like a liar, an exaggerator, or even worse, imply she possibly encouraged the activity.

For these reasons, even though there may be some truth to the rumors, I don't think there will be an actual lawsuit. Even if the victim is just interested in getting her day in court and not money, the only justice she'll ever really get is in the form of monetary damages. So it makes sense for the Duggars to try to pay her off now, before any suit is actually filed. And it probably makes sense for her to settle with them. Jim Bob hates to part with a penny so she may as well do the only thing she can - hit 'em in the pocketbook.