Duggars on Megyn Kelly, Friday Night Edition

[DuggaredOut]

I only know who Lena is because I looked her up when people kept talking about her.

I dont get why the media doesn't understand that the Duggars are notnjust reality tv stars they are members of a politicized cult where there are groups of people who have been fighting them for more than a decade.

This isn't a famous vs famous thing.

Lena is just some writer actor kr some show on paid cable. She doesn't have a group working against her message.

Really, media, how difficult is this to understand?

Also, Lena Dunham DID get a lot of flack for that. People didn't just shrug their shoulders. It was a big deal, and she got plenty of criticism. There was even discussion of cancelling her show. I hate how these Faux News people feel like they can just speak a twisted version of the truth and make it so.

[bella8050]

]Strange how nothing happened/they weren't victims/Josh is not a molester yet they are ready to implement their parents' safeguards with their own children/ If what Josh did to them was no big deal why the need to treat every male child like a potential molester?

This is one of the most frustrating issues to me in the Wednesday interview and now tonights. JB&M say Josh's "mistakes" caused one of the hardest times their family has gone through, Michelle's crocodile tears and voice breaking over Josh being sent away and telling the girls that "Josh did some very bad things and he's very sorry," the super strict "safeguards" put in place - those sentiments do not add up with the minimizing description of his "mistakes." If it was only a light touch for a few seconds, girls didn't even know it was happening, then why exactly was it such a horrible time for the family that created drastic safeguards? They are trying to have it both ways but people (for the most part) are not buying it.

I also cannot believe Jessa's descriptions of Josh's behavior...he was slick/sly...it almost sounded like she was complimenting him. That is not a good thing Jessa, that shows he was frickin dangerous.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I was about to go to bed but I had one more thought. Jill says she is going to use the same safeguards in her family to protect the boys from molesting the girls. What happens if she only has two children, a boy and a girl? (I know she wants more but life doesn't always work out the way we think it will.) Will they be able to play together? Will they have to be separated once they reach a certain age? It just strikes me as bizarre to make plans for your future children that involves treating them as potential molesters before you have even met them.

[elsabee]

And why on earth would the Duggars TELL the girls (and the rest of the family) what Josh had done if they were totally unaware of it? They've already shown they can keep secrets that make them look bad. If the girls really didn't know what was going on, I can't see a reality in which Boob and J'Chelle would tell them.

[violynn]

Thanks again, Buzzard. :)

I haven't read any comments about JB explaining to Jill that she should FORGIVE Josh, but that she didn't have to TRUST him until he earned it.

I don't know if it was appropriate in the circumstances of molestation or not, but I thought it was an interesting separation. I think in my own non-Christian life those two things would tend to go together.

The first time I truly understood forgiveness in a biblical sense was back some years ago when a man living near an Amish community walked into the little Amish school and gunned down a lot of the children and one or two of the teachers. I'm pretty sure there was some kind of hostage issue for a bit as well, but maybe not. I do know the man killed himself soon after.

The entire Amish community, down to every last parent of those murdered children forgave the murderer en masse, and all went to his funeral, prayed for him and went to visit the man's family. The US was stunned. But they explained (another big thing: some of the Amish allowed interviews, something they shun usually) that they were living the Lord's Prayer:

Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us

My church taught this as well, but not nearly half the skill that those Amish parents taught me that week.

I forgave the person who molested my daughter the one time. I've never let him near my children again. I refuse to have anything to do with him again. But I no longer wish him ill and hope he finds peace. I haven't forgiven the man who raped me yet. I told myself for a long time I *should*, but you know what? Fuck that for now. Hopefully the day will come though, because I do believe that carrying that hate and fear and bile hurts me more than it does him. Just not ready yet.

[chelleinchicago]

I was about to go to bed but I had one more thought. Jill says she is going to use the same safeguards in her family to protect the boys from molesting the girls. What happens if she only has two children, a boy and a girl? (I know she wants more but life doesn't always work out the way we think it will.) Will they be able to play together? Will they have to be separated once they reach a certain age? It just strikes me as bizarre to make plans for your future children that involves treating them as potential molesters before you have even met them.

You can't start too early with the side hug demonstrations and the resulting confusion due to the profusion of full frontal grossness from your parents.

[chelleinchicago]

And why on earth would the Duggars TELL the girls (and the rest of the family) what Josh had done if they were totally unaware of it? They've already shown they can keep secrets that make them look bad. If the girls really didn't know what was going on, I can't see a reality in which Boob and J'Chelle would tell them.

The reality where their forgiveness was required to alleviate Josh of his sins. It's all about him.

[2manyKidzzz]

I'm sure all of the girls will be very aware that this could happen. Since it happened to them. What Josh did was completely creepy. They did not seem that upset by it. I am actually sorry it came to light and upset these girls because their parents are the cult people. I am so opposed to large families like that and opposed to blindly following religion and NOT EDUCATING YOUR CHILDREN. Sigh.

[chelleinchicago]

The first time I truly understood forgiveness in a biblical sense was back some years ago when a man living near an Amish community walked into the little Amish school and gunned down a lot of the children and one or two of the teachers. I'm pretty sure there was some kind of hostage issue for a bit as well, but maybe not. I do know the man killed himself soon after.

The entire Amish community, down to every last parent of those murdered children forgave the murderer en masse, and all went to his funeral, prayed for him and went to visit the man's family. The US was stunned. But they explained (another big thing: some of the Amish allowed interviews, something they shun usually) that they were living the Lord's Prayer:

Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us

My church taught this as well, but not nearly half the skill that those Amish parents taught me that week.

I forgave the person who molested my daughter the one time. I've never let him near my children again. I refuse to have anything to do with him again. But I no longer wish him ill and hope he finds peace. I haven't forgiven the man who raped me yet. I told myself for a long time I *should*, but you know what? Fuck that for now. Hopefully the day will come though, because I do believe that carrying that hate and fear and bile hurts me more than it does him. Just not ready yet.

No "shoulds" about it. All in your own time and when you're ready. I'm so sorry you had to go through all of this.

[elsabee]

The reality where their forgiveness was required to alleviate Josh of his sins. It's all about him.

Ugh, I didn't even think about that. Probably right.

[nastyhobbitses]

And self-control. Remember (from the 1st special) - the Duggars learn self-control at an early age.

Gothardland: where six-month-old babies get beaten with wooden spoons for crawling off of a blanket, but fourteen-year-old boys "know not what they do" when they repeatedly molest their sisters.

[Tiny Bubbles]

The first time I truly understood forgiveness in a biblical sense was back some years ago when a man living near an Amish community walked into the little Amish school and gunned down a lot of the children and one or two of the teachers. I'm pretty sure there was some kind of hostage issue for a bit as well, but maybe not. I do know the man killed himself soon after.

The entire Amish community, down to every last parent of those murdered children forgave the murderer en masse, and all went to his funeral, prayed for him and went to visit the man's family. The US was stunned. But they explained (another big thing: some of the Amish allowed interviews, something they shun usually) that they were living the Lord's Prayer:

Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us

My church taught this as well, but not nearly half the skill that those Amish parents taught me that week.

I forgave the person who molested my daughter the one time. I've never let him near my children again. I refuse to have anything to do with him again. But I no longer wish him ill and hope he finds peace. I haven't forgiven the man who raped me yet. I told myself for a long time I *should*, but you know what? Fuck that for now. Hopefully the day will come though, because I do believe that carrying that hate and fear and bile hurts me more than it does him. Just not ready yet.

I remember the Amish story and the community forgiveness aspect was remarkable. Thanks for sharing your perspective on this Violynn, and I am so sorry for what you went through. I imagine there is no rush to forgive something like that. In your own time. There's no "should" involved.

[texpatriategames]

Bolded is EXACTLY what is going on! I keep trying to remind myself that this family has another set of values, beliefs, mores and customs than mainstream religion and America, but I keep tripping over how much they looked like an average, regular family in the US, other than the size of the family. Of course, that is exactly what the Duggars set out to do, never emphasizing the Gothard teachings and just exactly how entrenched they are in the cult.

It doesn't matter what Josh did to them. They don't count, not next to Josh. And God forgave him, and we're all going to forgive him and life will be wonderful forever now that we've got this neat tv show and all kinds of leg-humpers reminding us of how wonderful we are.

Everything is about persecution. You are supposed to be in the world, but not of it (except for TV shows, I guess). That's my surface level analysis-this is one more bit of "proof" to Duggarville that the world is an Evil Satanic Place that releases (totally legal) FOIA requests.

I do wish there was a way to show what a turd Josh is, and what enabling assholes his parents are, without naming the sisters as victims. True, the reports were redacted, but it was still easy to figure out. There's a reason most media outlets don't identify victims of sexual abuse. There are good reasons not to do that.

I can see the girls' point that maybe this coming out revictimizes them, But instead of being mad at their parents for dragging them into the media spotlight a decade ago, they get mad at the media for persecuting a good Christian family.

I think that's because the idea of challenging what their family did is too damn scary. That's why it's not uncommon to see family members in court claiming that their son would never murder an entire family; they didn't raise them that way! The police planted the blood! If you admit your family is capable of doing such awful wrong, then your whole world can come crashing down around you. This is all Jessa and Jill have, even with their husbands. This world is it. That makes me very very sad.

A friend watched the Duggars before me, and I judged her for it. Then I started watching it. After all this came out, me and the friend had a talk, and she said, "I watched because I was waiting and hoping for one of the kids to get away." And I realized whoa, me too.

Now I don't ever see that happening. I used to think it was inevitable. It probably still is with one or two of the younger kids. But the girls have such Stockholm Syndrome now that it just depresses me. If there's no chance that any family members will rebel, then I don't see the point. Of course, I was watching it for a very different reason than the leghumpers, or so I like to think.

This is a fuckin' cult, not a group of extremely conservative Christians. It's a cult. Cults make the price of leaving impossibly high. And so people like Jessa and Jill, who already believe themselves kinda worthless because they're female, rationalize and explain away and blame the darn liberal media.

[MalteseBaby]

I saw one thing from the early evening part I watched with Jessa and Jill, neither seemed to care AT ALL what the babysitter who was also molested thought or felt. She wasn't even mentioned. Maybe it's a legality, maybe they were told not to mention her, but the omission seemed really callous by all the Duggars. Was she babysitting " asleep" too?

And has she " forgiven Josh many years ago"? The girls speak with the assurance that they know everything but they don''t. It's sad in many ways that they are so insular.

[JenniferJuniper]

Wasn't josh engaged to be married at 15? How does that jibe with being a child? :evil-eye:

14 actually. Her family bailed for reasons we can guess at.

But Pa Keller? He knows how to pick 'em. Of course, the ever fabulous David Waller is now probably his favorite son-in-law.

[TrixieDanger]

MEGYN. IF THEIR ABUSERS ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE, THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN.

ARGH.

If their abuser was brought to justice at the time the police report was filed, and I guess if legal action was taken when Josh first committed the acts, this still would've happened -- and it would've happened at a time where the victims were still trying to understand what exactly was even happening and trying cope as victims of sexual abuse being much younger, more impressionable adolescents and children still in critical development. As well as having to deal with watching their family member be persecuted by the law forging a major shift in the landscape of their family at that vulnerable of an age. This is a unique case, but that doesn't make it any less tragic overall. The thing is, the Duggars were still high profile at that time because Jim Bob was a politician and a lot more active politically then than he is now, it would've been exploited by the media either way. Maybe not to this magnitude since for the most part they were higher profile in AR as opposed to now when millions of people know who they are because of the show, but it would've come out no doubt if Josh was charged and sentenced at the time the police report was filed. Josh was 18 at that time and in our flawed justice system, he would've been considered an adult suspect therefore he would've face harsher legal consequences. This would've made the news because Jim Bob was somewhat of a public figure even then. Jim Bob would've been ousted politically as well as lose TLC and the show -- which was being negotiated around the time the investigation was taking place. And keep in mind, the opportunity with TLC clearly promised a hefty income and I bet JB was thinking, as a man who had however many kids at the time to take care of, one could argue that he did everything he could to bury the incident having been motivated by that money to support his brood. In terms of protecting their children and getting them proper resources to deal with this, JB and Michelle failed in many ways. They were bound by their conservative beliefs and extremist faith. They are ignorant human beings across the board. They chose money over the well being of their family thinking that money would result in the well being of their family. That said, they're so unaware of tabloid nature because their religion forbids them from indulging in that content which is why they probably didn't view it as this threatening thing. They also couldn't have known at the time that there would be this much interest in their family because even though the tabloids write about them now, it's not always salacious and people are still buying the magazines so of course they're going to keep writing about it since it's selling and print is hanging on by a thread. This family's exposure to, in specific, pop culture was probably nearly nonexistent and especially for those kids. I know this because a family member of mine is a born again christian fundie, has eight kids and while they're not quite as extreme as the Duggars are, the basic fundamentals in terms of censoring the kids media exposure is the same. And the eldest child has an infant and is the same age as Jill. From my experience and based on those observations from my own family, and this doesn't mean that I think how the Duggars handled it from the start is right, I think they truly didn't understand that what went on in their family, if ever released publicly, is a story fit to be tabloid gold. They didn't look at the big picture and that's one of their biggest mistakes, putting their beliefs aside and not genuinely taking into consideration that they ARE high profile and that the possibility of this public exposure would do exactly what it did: victimize those girls 1000 times worse (according to Jill and Jessa). But with the promise from corrupt law enforcement officials (um, hello... red flag right there) that this will never get out combined with their devout and ignorant faith, apparently that was enough to convince them that what they did and how they handled everything was worth the risk. And it's not just their family and the Duggar victims, Megyn is right about how this story getting out could put the fear in other sexual abuse victims which might prohibit them from ever speaking up knowing that their private trauma could go public. Not only are they damaging their own kids but they're damaging a very large number of people who are already going through hell. It's sickening and just so disappointing.

[DuggaredOut]

Thanks again, Buzzard. :)

I haven't read any comments about JB explaining to Jill that she should FORGIVE Josh, but that she didn't have to TRUST him until he earned it.

I don't know if it was appropriate in the circumstances of molestation or not, but I thought it was an interesting separation. I think in my own non-Christian life those two things would tend to go together.

This was actually the ONLY thing out of that whole shitfest that I thought was reasonable. I actually am a Christian (I was raised fundie-lite and am not a churchgoer these days, but my beliefs are close to mainline Protestant views), and even in my childhood Baptist church, we were taught there was a difference between forgiveness and restoration. The Bible teaches us to forgive, which can be a long process to work toward and isn't necessarily a one-time thing, but we do NOT have to restore the offender to his/her former relationship with us. We were taught there are consequences of sin, and if the offense is serious enough, one of those consequences might be that the relationship is irrevocably changed.

The problem I have with what JB said is that, while it sounds good, in practice, ATI really doesn't leave female victims any choice but to forgive and trust again, and this should always be a choice. People who decide to forgive need to do so out of their own free will, not because their parents are standing there thumping the Bible. ATI also teaches sexual abuse victims that they are partially to blame for the sins committed against them. That's so wrong and has absolutely no biblical basis. It's their own sick cult teaching.

[JenniferJuniper]

I also cannot believe Jessa's descriptions of Josh's behavior...he was slick/sly...it almost sounded like she was complimenting him. That is not a good thing Jessa, that shows he was frickin dangerous.

I also found the phrase from the police report "he's tamer now" very frightening.

When I think of something being "tamed" I think of an animal.

[2andstopping]

Also, Lena Dunham DID get a lot of flack for that. People didn't just shrug their shoulders. It was a big deal, and she got plenty of criticism. There was even discussion of cancelling her show. I hate how these Faux News people feel like they can just speak a twisted version of the truth and make it so.

Right, they are trying to deflect from the fact their FRC golden boy did some effed up stuff. So they point out someone else's effed up stuff... except it's not a fair comparison because what little I know of Lena Dunham she is not part of a cult that apparently has a child preying on child epidemic within it if you listen to what JB said about knowing lots of other people having this type of situation in their families. He only knows fundie families so what else can we assume but him basically calling out all the other gothard followers and saying they have the same problem with their boys. Isn't this a red flag to him that something is wrong with the way they bring up their children??

[Tiny Bubbles]

Even though Jill's "2/3 of families" statistic seems very high, there's Still a scary number of us in FJ who have experienced sexual abuse.

My goodness.

peace and healing, friends.

[SassyPants]

2/3 of ATI families, honey. That is all that matters.

And if this is true, anyone with number of neurons firing would no longer be associated with ATI.

[2andstopping]

This was actually the ONLY thing out of that whole shitfest that I thought was reasonable. I actually am a Christian (I was raised fundie-lite and am not a churchgoer these days, but my beliefs are close to mainline Protestant views), and even in my childhood Baptist church, we were taught there was a difference between forgiveness and restoration. The Bible teaches us to forgive, which can be a long process to work toward and isn't necessarily a one-time thing, but we do NOT have to restore the offender to his/her former relationship with us. We were taught there are consequences of sin, and if the offense is serious enough, one of those consequences might be that the relationship is irrevocably changed.

The problem I have with what JB said is that, while it sounds good, in practice, ATI really doesn't leave female victims any choice but to forgive and trust again, and this should always be a choice. People who decide to forgive need to do so out of their own free will, not because their parents are standing there thumping the Bible. ATI also teaches sexual abuse victims that they are partially to blame for the sins committed against them. That's so wrong and has absolutely no biblical basis. It's their own sick cult teaching.

The forgive but don't have to trust thing reminds me of people saying forgive but don't forget. People a generation older than me in my extended family were sexually abused by there father and he was kicked out of the house and they spent years trying to truly forgive him because they later became fundie lite and felt the need to do so but they sure as hell never let their daughters have any sort of close relationship with him and specifically told them why when they were old enough to understand. I truly wonder if Jessa's baby is a girl if she would trust josh to be alone with her...

[DuggaredOut]

And it's not just their family and the Duggar victims, Megyn is right about how this story getting out could put the fear in other sexual abuse victims which might prohibit them from ever speaking up knowing that their private trauma could go public.

Megyn Kelly was trying to insinuate that the ebil lib'ral media dun wrong because publishing the police report could discourage other abuse victims from reporting. But let's be realistic. This went public because the Duggars are famous. Ninety-nine percent of us aren't famous, so our childhood histories will not be dug up by the media and splashed across TV and computer screens everywhere.

[OodOnTheLoo]

Not from James Robert, he said that 1 in 5 or 6 families go through this.

Math is hard, y'all!

[OodOnTheLoo]

I also found the phrase from the police report "he's tamer now" very frightening.

When I think of something being "tamed" I think of an animal.

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