Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Rumors - Part 4

[lookinggoodforjesus]

Given the comments we have all read this past week it's hard to remember, but being against sexual abuse doesn't make you a good person or parent! It takes more than that. Most, or all, sane people are against sexually abusing minors! Physical abuse isn't that far behind sexual abuse. I don't know much about Zsu, but simply thinking sexually abusing minors is wrong isn't worthy of respect in the absence of other good qualities!!

You're very right. Being against pedophilia should be standard, but apparently in the fundie world it is not. If I think Zsu is a wonderful fundie mother for stating that pedophilia is unforgivable, what does that say about fundies?

In the grand lens of the world, is she a good mother? I don't know her personally, but I would certainly not say "yeah she's awesome". Unfortunately, as a fundie mother, she kind of is right now.

[latraviata]

I do think this situation would be really hard on a parent. You're essentially having to choose between your children. You know that you can only be a good parent to one of them.

But isn't the choice obvious?

If my son ever did anything like this to my daughter.... well, he would no longer be my son. He would be cut off. I would refuse to see or acknowledge him. No hurts my children, including my children. Maybe if he truly did apologize (NOT a Joshie apology like a real one). Maybe. But most likely not. I don't think I could forgive anyone who did that to my daughter, not even my own son. I know, I'm not a mother; I can't really say something like that. But I mean it. Hopefully in my life time I will not have to defend that statement, but I would. Not sure yet if I'd drown him in the bathtub or just dump him off in Haiti....

You know, it's funny, I know a baptist family where this happened. They did almost the same thing. The son raped the daughter for nine years. The only way someone found out is a neighbour found her naked and duct taped. What did the parents do? Nothing at all. They honestly pretended it never happened. I mean atheists may be ebil but at least we appropriately address our children's "mistakes".

He would remain my son, but removed from the family at least not in the same house as the vicim and immediate therapy.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

I don't think it's impossible to care for both your son and your abused daughters. There are two parents, and in a situation like this they need to each take responsibility for helping one party, IMO. When Jani Schofield had a younger brother she was a danger to, her parents lived apart, one with each sibling to protect the young baby from the possibly violent older sister. What Josh did is disgusting, horrible and unforgivable, but he is also a product of his environment and his parents are still his parents regardless of what he did. Most especially since he wasn't an adult at the time. They could have kept him away from his victims, but with a parent for guidance, but they didn't. Of course, all that is harder when you have a zillion children.

What is infuriating me is that they obviously chose their son over their daughters. My reaction is a strong one, but that's also a reaction from someone young who does not have children but is deeply moved by crimes against children (even by children). The Duggars did not choose their daughters here. They did nothing for them. Instead, they did all that they could to protect their son. Utterly despicable.

[ElegantMajesticPearls]

That interview was taped a few weeks ago. They could easily cut and slice reactions from one question to another.

Also Jana, Jill, Jessa and Jinger have been parroting that modesty line for years on the show. I doubt Michelle saying it again would warrant a strong reaction from them.

[twinmama]

What is infuriating me is that they obviously chose their son over their daughters. My reaction is a strong one, but that's also a reaction from someone young who does not have children but is deeply moved by crimes against children (even by children). The Duggars did not choose their daughters here. They did nothing for them. Instead, they did all that they could to protect their son. Utterly despicable.

Oh I completely agree that they reacted despicably. Thank goodness I haven't been in a situation like this with my kids, but I find it hard to imagine ANYTHING they would do that would make me disown them completely, as minors. If they fuck up that badly, some part of it is my fault and my responsibility to help them recover from, make amends for, and prevent from EVER happening again. I don't know how you do it when both the perpetrator and the victim are your children, but I have to believe you find a way with priority given to the victims obviously.

[BekahJ]

Ok, so as many others have said, these threads are so long and grow SO fast that I may of missed it, but I wanted to bring up something that I didn't see in here.

A number of people (on FreeJinger and not) have referenced the comments on this blog, where people two commenters (Alice & StarlightDreamer) mentioned sexual abuse and had insight into the specifics that have now proven to be true.

ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/

In one post, StarlightDreamer copies and pastes a post from "concernedmom" posted back in 2005 on factnet. The poster stated that she attended their home church and referenced the "sin in the camp", the son of a political leader touching his sisters while they slept and a broken courtship because of these actions (at age 14). All these things, posted 10 years ago, now appear to be true.

This part particularly troubled me though...

"Then about a year later, my friend decided to go back to the home church and see everyone again. She was appalled at what went on at that particular meeting. An eight year old girl was made by her parents to stand in front of the group and confess the sin of masturbation and ask for punishment (to cleanse her) and forgiveness. My first thought was that this girl had to have been abused if she was truly masturbating, but with the power of these families, what can you do. "

:o

Of course this is now a 3rd hand account, and who knows what really happened, but with everything else in the post now proven to be true, should we be worried about more complex abuse happening in the Duggar house beyond "teenage mistakes"? I hope to any god that may be out there that this isn't true. Thoughts?

[SportsgalAnnie]

I consider myself a person that's dedicated to non-violence, but I want to kick Jim Bob and Michelle's ass so badly right now. Josh's, too. Those three are the holy trinity of repugnance.

I don't like violence either but may I join you?

[singsingsing]

An eight-year-old girl masturbating is most definitely NOT evidence of sexual abuse, but forcing her to stand up in front of a group of other children and adults and confess to her 'sin' IS sexual abuse.

[BekahJ]

An eight-year-old girl masturbating is most definitely NOT evidence of sexual abuse, but forcing her to stand up in front of a group of other children and adults and confess to her 'sin' IS sexual abuse.

Just to be clear, this is what I meant- I don't agree with the OP who I quoted on that point.

[HarryPotterFan]

A question I saw on Facebook really disturbed me...Since Jim Bob, Michelle, Smuggar, and Anna gave exclusive statements to People (as they do for everything)...do you think they got paid for it?

[singsingsing]

Just to be clear, this is what I meant- I don't agree with the OP who I quoted on that point.

And just to be clear on my part, I didn't mean to suggest that YOU meant it! :)

[Buzzard]

Directv hasnt pulled the show from on demand.

[nelliebelle1197]

Given the comments we have all read this past week it's hard to remember, but being against sexual abuse doesn't make you a good person or parent! It takes more than that. Most, or all, sane people are against sexually abusing minors! Physical abuse isn't that far behind sexual abuse. I don't know much about Zsu, but simply thinking sexually abusing minors is wrong isn't worthy of respect in the absence of other good qualities!!

Also in this very post, she says she thinks the Duggars are liberals because they won't ADMIT they hit their kids! In other words, she thinks you should hit them and be proud of it. Not a good parent.

Seriously. Zsucifer is doing this to distance herself from her previous Duggar worship and to again point out how superior she is. If someone here is sending her comments about how much they respect her as a mother (who isolates and indoctrinates her children with hate, who beats them regularly, who allows them to grow up around a mentally unstable father, who does not take her kids to the emergency room until they are nearly dead, who instilling into them nothing that will allow them to survive outside the The Church of the Holy Storage Unit bubble, etc.) then that person knows nothing about Zsucifer.

[refugee]

In regards to the speculation that Josh himself may have been abused:

Do you all consider it a form of child abuse that he likely saw/heard his parents going at it all the time in that small house?

I don't know that anyone actually touched Josh, but it must have been confusing to him to have his mother pregnant all the time and have JB constantly fondling her all throughout the house and I'm sure he heard them plenty of times. And being completely separated from normal interactions/friendships with girls like he would get in school I think is part of what made him turn to his own siblings. Though... he likely would have done something to a girl at school...

I still can't get over the age of the younger ones... That is such predatory behavior. I read the Matt Walsh article about it and he said something to the effect of "Would you really turn your 14 year old into the cops?"

And I had to think about it... I don't actually know what I would do in terms of police, but I do know I would send my son to go live with my dad or brother and get him counseling and out of the house away from my girls.

I agree that Jana has seen a lot/experienced a lot/been through a lot. FreeJana

This thought ("saw/heard his parents going at it all the time in that small house) has crossed my mind. In the few bits of the show I remember seeing, it seemed like JB could scarcely keep his hands off M. Maybe M. is some kind of man-hands magnet; as I recall, DPIAT didn't seem to be able to help himself when he was presenting her with VF's "mother" award.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

An eight-year-old girl masturbating is most definitely NOT evidence of sexual abuse, but forcing her to stand up in front of a group of other children and adults and confess to her 'sin' IS sexual abuse.

I agree with this.

[mfch]

ZsuZsu LOOOOOOVES moral superiority, it's her favourite thing to point out how much better she is than anyone else and to take comfort in the misery of others.

With that said, her response is not bad, and I would go further and say I absolutely can not see her permitting a situation like that to occur with her children ... I hope not, anyway seeing as going by her logic she would then need to 'swiftly execute' poor old Solomon or Isaac :? :?

[nelliebelle1197]

A question I saw on Facebook really disturbed me...Since Jim Bob, Michelle, Smuggar, and Anna gave exclusive statements to People (as they do for everything)...do you think they got paid for it?

Yes, indirectly. I think they have a deal with People but already have been paid. They are contractually obligated to talk to People exclusively.

[usmcmom]

Also another thing that makes me angry is the parents ignored the molestation of their daughters and then turned them into their personal slaves. Are you kidding me.

They also turned their daughters into the servant of the person who molested them. They probably had to pack his bags for their trips. We know they had to cook for him and do his laundry. Those poor girls were made to wake up each day and not only live with their abuser, but actually take care of him.

[drivingmishcrazy]

HOLY CRAP ON A CRACKER a leghumper who left the leg.

Damn, FINALLY, someone from that crazy circle who isn't making excuses for them! Granted it's still Zsu we're talking about, but goddamn it, someone needed to say it.

[nelliebelle1197]

ZsuZsu LOOOOOOVES moral superiority, it's her favourite thing to point out how much better she is than anyone else and to take comfort in the misery of others.

With that said, her response is not bad, and I would go further and say I absolutely can not see her permitting a situation like that to occur with her children ... I hope not, anyway seeing as going by her logic she would then need to 'swiftly execute' poor old Solomon or Isaac :? :?

I actually disagree. I think the chances of that happening in Zsucifer's filthy house are actually higher than they would be in a normal house considering how isolated those kids are and how Zsucfier encourages their "pretend" marriages. I doubt Zsucifer would ever let such sin come to light- PeePee would beat the kid senseless but it would be hidden from the public. It would hurt their images among the Tiny Flock of Hate to have such a failure of their parenting come to light.

[HarryPotterFan]

They also turned their daughters into the servant of the person who molested them. They probably had to pack his bags for their trips. We know they had to cook for him and do his laundry. Those poor girls were made to wake up each day and not only live with their abuser, but actually take care of him.

Ugh. I would have put itching powder in his underwear and laxatives in his food.

[VelociRapture]

Ugh. I would have put itching powder in his underwear and laxatives in his food.

You don't want to know what I would do to him. You really don't want to know what would happen if he did that to my children. It would not end well for him at all.

[mfch]

I actually disagree. I think the chances of that happening in Zsucifer's filthy house are actually higher than they would be in a normal house considering how isolated those kids are and how Zsucfier encourages their "pretend" marriages. I doubt Zsucifer would ever let such sin come to light- PeePee would beat the kid senseless but it would be hidden from the public. It would hurt their images among the Tiny Flock of Hate to have such a failure of their parenting come to light.

Maybe so, I would definitely agree the culture these children are brought up in- cut off from the outside world, physical contact= sex, sex=sinful and you're going to hell, lack of education, unbalanced parents is very much responsible for what happens.

Josh is a product of his environment. It's not that large families (although the Duggars aren't just large, they are ridiculous) promote an environment that allows sexual abuse to occur, it's the rest of it.

I would not be remotely surprised if something weird was happening in the Arndt family, in fact I really suspect that it is. Off topic sorry.

[lookinggoodforjesus]

Oh I completely agree that they reacted despicably. Thank goodness I haven't been in a situation like this with my kids, but I find it hard to imagine ANYTHING they would do that would make me disown them completely, as minors. If they fuck up that badly, some part of it is my fault and my responsibility to help them recover from, make amends for, and prevent from EVER happening again. I don't know how you do it when both the perpetrator and the victim are your children, but I have to believe you find a way with priority given to the victims obviously.

I think that's a really wonderful way of viewing it. Emotionally difficult as ever, but very strong. I certainly could never be capable of that at 20. It's difficult to gage how much fault for a child's actions belongs to the parents. I can think of a lot terrible things that I did as a child, and yes a huge portion of it I can trace back to my parents. But they were many things that were entirely me. I would feel terrible if my parents felt responsible for all of those things. Not that as a parent you shouldn't recognize your influence on your child. This is not news or an original opinion, but I think children are extremely sensitive to their environment. It's the parent's duty to create the best environment for their children that they have the ability to. If one's environment was one of sexual misconduct and pro-rape, then obviously as a parent one should be responsible for their children's actions (talking about the Duggars here). But if you're a normal person and you're child is being raised in an environment where they understand WHY they don't touch their sister's vaginas, then you've done your part. It is natural to want to heal your child and support them. This is also a personal thing for me, but I have wasted a large part of my life trying to "help people get better". Instead, they've only ever taken advantage of me, abused me, and tried to drag me down with them. I believe that some people are bad people. It's a hard realization, but not everyone is humble enough to change. If my child sexually abused one person once, then I could forgive. But all of my daughters, multiple times, over years? That's too far. The line's been crossed. But I do believe in unconditional love. I believe that family members should love each other unconditionally. I just believe that some things are beyond love. Physical abuse? I would say we can work through that. But sexual abuse? No.

Wow I lose points for my coherency here

[LongDogMom]

Most reports, including Josh's own statement, puts Josh's molestation at 15 (he's 27 now and he says "Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably..." which would make the girls the following ages based on the difference in their ages and Josh's age at that time:

Jana - 13

Jill - 12

Jessa = 10

Jinger - 9

Joy-Anna - 5

But I'm also sure I read that it happened AGAIN when Josh was 17.

Can someone help me? Did Josh get caught molesting them again at age 17?

Thanks.