Josiah Duggar Courting - Part 2

[AngelGirl8811]

I agree with every word.

And Josh does look miserable. He is just worn out.

When Anna announced him that she was pregnant with baby n.4 he was like "duh...oh...really? oh...ok". No enthusiasm at all. That's not a normal reaction to a news that is supposed to be thrilling for all the family. And then he made those considerations on how "different" (=difficult) it will be to have this child in Washington, with already three to be taken care of...

He sounded overwhelmed more than overjoyed.

These are the times that I feel bad for Josh. I look at him and Anna, realize that they're my age and thank god for my Catholic parents. I can't imagine having that many children and know that more are on the way. Yes, he's in that lifestyle and yes, he's a bit of a smug douche but that's gotta be taking it toll. Anna might be loving it but Josh is most definitely overwhelmed.

On the topic of Josiah, maybe it is his way of escaping the TTH. Maybe him and Marjorie will be completely fine. It just makes me sad that the only way out for them is to get married. I could totally see Josiah as an Arts student, discussing philosophy and history but that will never happen.

[eh02]

Josh seems to love his children to death. He does look really, genuinely happy when he is with his kids. So at least he has that. As for Anna - he does seem to really love Anna, but I can't necessarily say they strike me as a couple that gives you that "soulmate" feeling when you see them together. They seem to have shared parenting goals, and that is good. But I don't see much beyond that.

18 is young to be married. Nobody ever said every person who gets married at 18 will get divorced. But I don't know how anyone can say 18 is not a young age to get married when it's quite literally the first year you are allowed to legally marry without getting it signed off on by your parents. Plus, a lot of fundie kids are way behind the "average" 18 year old in many ways. They've had fewer chances to get out and experience the real world, test out their independence, etc. And they are basically coerced into early marriage because they know they will not be allowed to have any freedom or independence without it. So I think a fundie marrying at 18 is very different than your "average" 18 year old who may choose to get married just because they want to get married, without the strings attached of "this is the ONLY WAY I can get out of my parents' house or have sex."

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

It looks like the average age at first marriage for non-college graduates is 23.6. So 18 is still pretty young (at least in the mainstream, not Quiverfull necessarily). I certainly wouldn't say it's "perfectly normal."

bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/pdf/marriage-and-divorce-patterns-by-gender-race-and-educational-attainment.pdf

But "average" isn't necessarily "normal." An average can easily be thrown off by a couple of really high or a couple of really low numbers. And, not everyone gets married when they're young, even if they didn't graduate or attend college.

[eh02]

But "average" isn't necessarily "normal." An average can easily be thrown off by a couple of really high or a couple of really low numbers. And, not everyone gets married when they're young, even if they didn't graduate or attend college.

"Normal" doesn't mean anything, of course. But 18 is not close to the average OR the median for first marriages. So if we're going by statistical frequency alone to describe "normal," I would say marriage at 18 is abnormal.

We charge people high premiums on car insurance until their mid 20s...why's that? Oh yeah. Because most people's brains do not develop fully until their mid 20s, and that's how long it takes for people to stop doing really idiotic, dangerous things. And those numbers ARE based on enormous amounts of statistical data measuring the way we continue to mature well after we are legally deemed "adults." There is still a disconnect between risks and consequences and long-term impact of your choices and actions for most people, well into the early 20s. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how smart, level-headed or mature you are. Sometimes there is just no substitute for time and life experience.

Some people will marry at 18 and have long, happy marriages. That's great. It's far from impossible. But why make the decision at 18 when you don't have to? I really do not think there is anything wrong with people believing that it is not right when 18 year olds are not only encouraged, but actually pressured into early marriage.

If the Duggars were allowed freedom to explore their dreams and passions, and the freedom to date, they would not be getting married so young. That's where the coercion comes in IMO. Their parents are taking advantage of their teenagers being desperate for independence and intimacy. What would Josiah be doing if he wasn't getting married? His parents SENT HIM AWAY to a military camp. They practically wrote him off the show. They look like they can barely stand him. In his world, marriage is the only way out. It is horrible.

[Freefundies]

Wow such a young guy wanting to escape the clan. When it was announced and they showed the picture I had to figure out which kid he was as he looks and is so young. I don't like to be negative but poor Marjorie, even though younger than Josiah, looks to be so old at the age of 17 in that photo. Maybe its the photo or maybe its the fundie lifestyle sucking the life out of a teenager.

[grandmadugger]

Josh seems to love his children to death. He does look really, genuinely happy when he is with his kids. So at least he has that. As for Anna - he does seem to really love Anna, but I can't necessarily say they strike me as a couple that gives you that "soulmate" feeling when you see them together. They seem to have shared parenting goals, and that is good. But I don't see much beyond that.

18 is young to be married. Nobody ever said every person who gets married at 18 will get divorced. But I don't know how anyone can say 18 is not a young age to get married when it's quite literally the first year you are allowed to legally marry without getting it signed off on by your parents. Plus, a lot of fundie kids are way behind the "average" 18 year old in many ways. They've had fewer chances to get out and experience the real world, test out their independence, etc. And they are basically coerced into early marriage because they know they will not be allowed to have any freedom or independence without it. So I think a fundie marrying at 18 is very different than your "average" 18 year old who may choose to get married just because they want to get married, without the strings attached of "this is the ONLY WAY I can get out of my parents' house or have sex."

I'm not sure Josh loves Anna the same way Derick appears to love Jill or Ben appears to love Jessa. I think he cares deeply for Anna but I've never gotten the impression that it was that butterfly in your tummy kind of love. They actually remind me more of two great friends who said, "You know if we both hit 30 and aren't married lets just marry each other and have a family."

[carebaer]

I'm not sure Josh loves Anna the same way Derick appears to love Jill or Ben appears to love Jessa. I think he cares deeply for Anna but I've never gotten the impression that it was that butterfly in your tummy kind of love. They actually remind me more of two great friends who said, "You know if we both hit 30 and aren't married lets just marry each other and have a family."

That kind of love can be better for a marriage than butterflies in your tummy. It can be more solid/logic based and possibly more likely to grow rather than fade or be torn apart as the couple grows.

[grandmadugger]

That kind of love can be better for a marriage than butterflies in your tummy. It can be more solid/logic based and possibly more likely to grow rather than fade or be torn apart as the couple grows.

But at some point there should have been sparks I never saw sparks with those two. With their relationship I worry that they'll become "two ships passing in the night". I think you need both in a good marriage, you need to have a spark and you need to have the friendship type of relationship.

[nastyhobbitses]

I'm not sure Josh loves Anna the same way Derick appears to love Jill or Ben appears to love Jessa. I think he cares deeply for Anna but I've never gotten the impression that it was that butterfly in your tummy kind of love. They actually remind me more of two great friends who said, "You know if we both hit 30 and aren't married lets just marry each other and have a family."

I agree. I think they genuinely have affection for one another, but it's not that big passionate head-over-heels sort of love. There are moments of it (I thought it was corny as hell but also really sweet when he sang to her in the last episode), but they seem more like what you described: two really good friends who care very deeply about each other and have sexual chemistry, and are just very comfortable and compatible with each other. And that kind of love is awesome. I say that mostly because most of my relationships either began as or always remained FWB relationships. Though I don't know if I'd be down for having four children with the dude I hook up with and text about comic books.

[apandaaries]

I had hopes that Josiah would make a run from the cult. He seems like an intelligent and sweet guy. I wonder if he'll drift away once married? With how the other married Duggars have continued to chug down the Koolaid, I sadly doubt it. As for his girlfriend, I'm not sure what to make of her. It could go either way. She could start drinking the Duggar Koolaid ala Anna.

Young Marjorie and Anna were both raised on the Koolaid. These fundie families and their sacrificial daughters know what a Duggar alliance means.

[MalteseBaby]

The Jackson parents are sucking hard on the Kool- Aid straws in the big smiley pitcher. They know what they are doing. They are " giving their virgin daughter" to the fundie king on the big TV screen./ Sarcasm but true in their minds.

As for why Josiah, I think JB had run out of things for him to go away from home and do. I think he's getting the potential troublemakers ( the ones who would talk back, or make faces, etc) out of the house ASAP. First, Jessa, now Josiah. I think he's a smart kid ( for that family) who's doing just about the only thing he's allowed to do. Court, get married, be unskilled and breeding third generation fundies. Poor Josiah and Margie. It's sickening to be such young pawns in their parents' lives, then to grow up and probably do the same thing to their own offspring one day.

[Jessa's Side Eye]

I'm wondering if Marjorie's parents let her pick out which Duggar boy she wanted or whether they spoke to JB asked him which Duggar boy he wanted to cast out next? So she was kind of "heaped on" Josiah. She strikes me as the type of girl who would make the most out of any situation, I'm just wondering if she sought Josiah out or JB pushed this one on them...

[halcionne]

They seem overdressed for that setting.

[JillyO]

So I guess she's also in Big Sandy. I wonder if her entire family is there, or else who her accountability buddy slash 24/7 chaperone is. Where did you find the picture, NST?

ETA: Oh, I just saw it on Pickles.

[Rescinded and Mended]

So I guess she's also in Big Sandy. I wonder if her entire family is there, or else who her accountability buddy slash 24/7 chaperone is. Where did you find the picture, NST?

ETA: Oh, I just saw it on Pickles.

This would be a sweet, quiet, introspective moment if the new couple wasn't in so much shadow.

And I'm going to assume the photo was found by nst, because Pickles is bad about giving credit where it's due.

[Selena]

They'll be J&M, just like Josiah's parents. :P Maybe we should call them J&M2. I wonder how many J&Ms there will end up being.

[BadMurphy]

I agree with every word.

And Josh does look miserable. He is just worn out.

When Anna announced him that she was pregnant with baby n.4 he was like "duh...oh...really? oh...ok". No enthusiasm at all. That's not a normal reaction to a news that is supposed to be thrilling for all the family. And then he made those considerations on how "different" (=difficult) it will be to have this child in Washington, with already three to be taken care of...

He sounded overwhelmed more than overjoyed.

Regarding Josh being worn out--I think when he was younger (pre-marriage, newlywed) he was all "heck yeah I'm on the tons of babies bandwagon!" because to him having lots of kids was easy--since he had so many sisters to do all the work. Now its just him and Anna so he has to pick up a lot more slack than he ever had to and so yeah-he is tired. I think his reaction to #4 is as close to admitting this as we will ever get.

[PracticeMakesProgress]

Regarding Josh being worn out--I think when he was younger (pre-marriage, newlywed) he was all "heck yeah I'm on the tons of babies bandwagon!" because to him having lots of kids was easy--since he had so many sisters to do all the work. Now its just him and Anna so he has to pick up a lot more slack than he ever had to and so yeah-he is tired. I think his reaction to #4 is as close to admitting this as we will ever get.

The "tons of babies bandwagon" likely meant "tons of awkward, fully-clothed sex" bandwagon. Now that he's had a few years of getting that young male energy out, has a "real" job (har har, but actual responsibilities), has gained some weight, and has three, going on four precocious and tiresome children, I'm sure the reality has set in. Your point is also good about the serious lack of sister moms and buddy systems to take some of the responsibility off the parents. What is more surprising is the change we've seen in Anna, but I think that has everything to do with becoming a little older, more mature, and most importantly, comfortable on camera. I do wonder the influence her super-fundie sister, Priscilla (David) has on her? It's almost as if she might be the more enthusiastic champion of ATI status quo as of late...

Back to the thread at hand, in my fundie lite upbringing, I knew a lot of young couples that said they were "courting," with no clear intention of being engaged and/or married within X amount of time. It was more acceptable and encouraged to say courting vs. dating because 1) that stupid, worthless Joshua Harris book, along with the Ludy books, and other trite pop-Christian manifestos, and 2) you wanted people to know you weren't "going too far." Courting often involved group dates, minimal alone time, and above all, no lying down together (watching the stars leads to heathen babies!). Sure, a lot of couples got married fairly young, but going through break ups and courting a few different people wasn't unusual. Only in Gothard-land does it seem to be more of a modern interpretation of arranged marriage....

I'm hoping Marjorie's parents view courting as I did. That it's ultimately harmless, a what they view as biblical way to let their daughter eventually find her husband...years later. But probably not, and we'll just watch another pre-wedding legos conversation on preschool chairs with JB and Josiah :roll:

[anjulibai]

Regarding Josh being worn out--I think when he was younger (pre-marriage, newlywed) he was all "heck yeah I'm on the tons of babies bandwagon!" because to him having lots of kids was easy--since he had so many sisters to do all the work. Now its just him and Anna so he has to pick up a lot more slack than he ever had to and so yeah-he is tired. I think his reaction to #4 is as close to admitting this as we will ever get.

Is he though?

Last summer, they had Jana around for quite a while, which they badly tried to hide to make a better story for the show (including outright lying, which I don't get how they can justify, but whatever). I don't think that was the first time, either - she's visited them several times, likely to help out.

Plus, Anna has a pretty decent spacing on her kids, so there hasn't likely hasn't been more than 2 kids in diapers at any one time. At this point, both Mac and Michael are probably potty trained. At 5, Mac can dress herself and probably both of her brothers. She can also help around the house with little chores and getting snacks for herself and her brothers.

Contrast this at age 5, Josh already had 5 brothers and sisters and a 6th on the way. No doubt, he was helping at out that age.

So, I don't think his exhaustion can be pinned to him picking up the slack; and I don't think his lack of interest in more kids compared to before has to do with it either.

I think it's just the reality of the real world hitting him. Life is not what he thought it would be. He thought he'd have more handed to him. Instead, he sees how things really work and knows he's woefully uneducated and unprepared for the life he thought he'd have. He probably also realizes that he'll never be able to pursue some of the dreams he had, like being an attorney.

I think he has no idea how to get out of his lifestyle. More children only mean that his life is more stuck. There certainly are ways he could get out, but that would mean changing everything he believes, ruining his marriage, potentially losing his job, and maybe even being cut off by the rest of his family.

[Cleopatra7]

I'm not sure Josh loves Anna the same way Derick appears to love Jill or Ben appears to love Jessa. I think he cares deeply for Anna but I've never gotten the impression that it was that butterfly in your tummy kind of love. They actually remind me more of two great friends who said, "You know if we both hit 30 and aren't married lets just marry each other and have a family."

The impression I've always had is that Anna was the first girl Josh had any kinds of feelings for, and the dictates of Gothardism are such that you have to marry to keep your "emotional purity." The same could actually be said of all of the Duggars who have married/courted thus far. Their lifestyle forces them to marry the first person they sort of kind of like with no room for determining whether this is a fleeting feeling or something that could lead to a more mature relationship.

[Selena]

I think that when M4 is weaned, it will be given to Mac as a little buddy. Can't start too soon, right?

I wonder if Josh will find things easier once the buddy system gets rolling. Probably not, because I get the feeling Anna does most of the hands-on work with the kids (and actually, she was the one I thought was stressed/overworked/lonely when they first got to DC. Maybe she was, and that's why Jana came to help). I think Josh is more wording about providing financially.

JB and Michelle may have liked having a huge quiver, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it doesn't look like it's what Josh and Anna would have chosen if they had had a choice. It'll be interesting to see whether they are able to break from the way they've been programmed enough to have the family size they want. But probably not, because it's so ingrained in both of them that birth control is evil.

[eh02]

I think that when M4 is weaned, it will be given to Mac as a little buddy. Can't start too soon, right?

I wonder if Josh will find things easier once the buddy system gets rolling. Probably not, because I get the feeling Anna does most of the hands-on work with the kids (and actually, she was the one I thought was stressed/overworked/lonely when they first got to DC. Maybe she was, and that's why Jana came to help). I think Josh is more wording about providing financially.

I think we'll see the buddy system starting soon, too. I do think Anna seems to be a more engaged mom than Michelle, so I honestly cannot see her doing it quite as extremely as Michelle (like making Mac get up in the middle of the night if a baby is crying) but she also seems to IDOLIZE Michelle. At least she seemed to show signs that she was teaching the boys to learn how to behave around babies, too - didn't she post an IG a few months back of one of the little boys playing with a doll? Fingers crossed that Mac won't be raising 18 younger siblings on her own...

And I also agree that Josh is probably stressed more about his career and finances. He is probably realizing that he was propelled forward by his parents' expectations for what his life was supposed to be and just went through the motions...and now what? This is it? For the rest of his life?

Anna might be 100% sold on being a SAHM forever but Josh looks like he could really be clinically depressed. I'm not sure Josh is necessarily put off by the idea of a large family in itself since he obviously LOVES his kids. But the logistics of it would be overwhelming. Jim Bob made it sound easy - all you have to do is grift, nickel and dime your friends and neighbors, and be a sleazy businessman! It's easy! God makes it all fall into place! :roll:

[gustava]

I would guess that Josh was hit with cold reality when he took the DC job. For the first time in his life, he was with men and women who were truly educated, who'd had other real jobs, who knew how to work. He's been in way over his head in that job.

[LilahBelle]

I would guess that Josh was hit with cold reality when he took the DC job. For the first time in his life, he was with men and women who were truly educated, who'd had other real jobs, who knew how to work. He's been in way over his head in that job.

I really wonder what his coworkers think of him.

[Mrs. Figg]

I think that Marj is in the post but it doesn't look like her to me for some reason.