Josiah Duggar Courting - Part 2

[lascuba]

Josh probably does more than Jim Bob ever did but I do not believe that he does all THAT much. And this isn't a criticism on anyone here but how is it possible for working men to do as much as sahms? Maybe they do as much when they're home, but unless they're working part time hours they can't be doing AS MUCH as their wives. I don't know, it just sounds like we're falling into that universal trap of giving men bonus points for doing the bare minimum.

[ClaraOswin]

Josh probably does more than Jim Bob ever did but I do not believe that he does all THAT much. And this isn't a criticism on anyone here but how is it possible for working men to do as much as sahms? Maybe they do as much when they're home, but unless they're working part time hours they can't be doing AS MUCH as their wives. I don't know, it just sounds like we're falling into that universal trap of giving men bonus points for doing the bare minimum.

Well, my husband does a lot. Definitely NOT the bare minimum. But I am lucky that he works from a home office. So he comes down and does lunch for our son. And he'll even come down to do diapers throughout the day. He does dinner almost every night. Then after work, he'll play with our son while I do whatever I want/need to do (including 'leisure' things like take a bath.) As I'm typing this, he's in front of me changing my son's diaper and getting ready to put him down for nap....haha! So yeah...my husband is probably the exception which is really sad. Though I know it really is a luxury to have him nearby during the day. If he worked outside the home, then yes, I would be on my own completely for 9 hours a day.

A girl I know posted one of those 'funny' ecards on Facebook today that said "What's it like to leave the house without the kids? I don't know, I'm not the dad." And I found that to be more sad than funny. I think it's truly pathetic that there are so-called fathers out there who never change diapers or take care of their kids on their own. The worst is when they refer to it as "babysitting" when it's their own child.

[lascuba]

Ok, it makes sense to me now--your husband works from home.

And do NOT get me started on men "babysitting" their own children! Grrr.

[ClaraOswin]

Ok, it makes sense to me now--your husband works from home.

And do NOT get me started on men "babysitting" their own children! Grrr.

Yep. He works for a bit company but is able to telecommute or whatever you call it. So...he basically just sneaks away when he's able. I know that our setup isn't very common at all. But even if he worked outside the home...he'd still be expected to do his part all the other times. I hate all these men who are like "well, I worked all day so I'm not going to cook/clean/take care of the kids when I get home or need to sleep." I think that's total bullshit. But I do think that's probably the way it is in most (all?) of the fundie families. I am sure some husbands do more than others. But I'm sure very few do what they consider to be the woman's job.

I think there was an old episode of 19 Kids where Michelle said Jim Bob was supposed to babysit and then he overslept and he was having to wake him and stuff. It was really pathetic.

[alba]

Eh, how much "pitching in" does he actually do when he's presumably working during the day? At most, he plays with them while Ana prepares dinner and maybe tucks them in. He's not getting up in the middle of the night for feedings and diaper changes, he's not doing the day to day scut work involved in child-rearing. He spends an hour or two a night with them during the week and they do whatever it is they do on weekends as a family. There have been a few candid pictures of Ana out with all three kids, grocery shopping. That means that Josh can be bothered to either do the shopping himself or stay with at least one of the kids while Ana shops. Like every other man with sahm for wives, he has nothing to complain about in the childcare department.

Eh, I don't draw the same conclusions. When my mom was a SAHM she often took us grocery stopping during the day when my dad was at work. She also often left us with Dad in the evening and went out herself (sometimes Dad went on the way home from work, too, but because Mom was at home in the afternoons, she did most of the cooking, and it was usually easier to just go shopping herself than give Dad a list). I think sometimes it was just easier to go during the day when the shops were quieter, or my parents wanted to be able to spend the evenings together as a family. Or, hell, maybe she just wanted to get out of the house and speak to someone who could pronounce the letter R.

I'm not going to pretend Josh does the majority of the childcare. He works outside the home, his wife doesn't. It's mathematically implausible for him to be spending more waking hours looking after his children. I just don't agree that Anna taking all three kids grocery shopping is evidence of Josh's laziness.

Totally agree with you on fathers "babysitting". Er, no, that's called being a f***ing parent.

[SassyPants]

Yep. He works for a bit company but is able to telecommute or whatever you call it. So...he basically just sneaks away when he's able. I know that our setup isn't very common at all. But even if he worked outside the home...he'd still be expected to do his part all the other times. I hate all these men who are like "well, I worked all day so I'm not going to cook/clean/take care of the kids when I get home or need to sleep." I think that's total bullshit. But I do think that's probably the way it is in most (all?) of the fundie families. I am sure some husbands do more than others. But I'm sure very few do what they consider to be the woman's job.

I think there was an old episode of 19 Kids where Michelle said Jim Bob was supposed to babysit and then he overslept and he was having to wake him and stuff. It was really pathetic.

Indeed, it is not.

[littlesparklingflame]

So, I don't think his exhaustion can be pinned to him picking up the slack; and I don't think his lack of interest in more kids compared to before has to do with it either.

I think it's just the reality of the real world hitting him. Life is not what he thought it would be. He thought he'd have more handed to him. Instead, he sees how things really work and knows he's woefully uneducated and unprepared for the life he thought he'd have. He probably also realizes that he'll never be able to pursue some of the dreams he had, like being an attorney.

I think he has no idea how to get out of his lifestyle. More children only mean that his life is more stuck. There certainly are ways he could get out, but that would mean changing everything he believes, ruining his marriage, potentially losing his job, and maybe even being cut off by the rest of his family.

Totally agree. It's not about him being too tired because of a demanding job or a lot to do with the kids.

It's his expectations on life that may have crushed against reality and the growth of his own self-awareness. All of this can be a heavy burden to carry when life is already quite demanding (busy schedule - whatever he does - plus demanding family life).

And there is one more thing in my opinion: sometimes it looks like he may have already fallen out of love with Anna. Which is perfectly understandable in a young couple as they are.

They both are clearly involved in the family they built, but as a couple they seem to be disconnected to say the least. He is clearly worried about the future, she still is naive as can be.

Yet he keeps living the life he's supposed to live and preaching it to others (see his talk to Josiah).

Josh, please, wake up!!! For your own sake, for your children, your wife and your siblings: wake up! And speak the truth.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I think that when M4 is weaned, it will be given to Mac as a little buddy. Can't start too soon, right?

I wonder if Josh will find things easier once the buddy system gets rolling. Probably not, because I get the feeling Anna does most of the hands-on work with the kids (and actually, she was the one I thought was stressed/overworked/lonely when they first got to DC. Maybe she was, and that's why Jana came to help). I think Josh is more wording about providing financially.

JB and Michelle may have liked having a huge quiver, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it doesn't look like it's what Josh and Anna would have chosen if they had had a choice. It'll be interesting to see whether they are able to break from the way they've been programmed enough to have the family size they want. But probably not, because it's so ingrained in both of them that birth control is evil.

I don't know. I've always thought Anna being "baby crazy" was put on her by TLC--just like she has to dress like Michelle, so basically, we forget Michelle isn't pregnant any more. I don't really see Anna dumping a baby on MacK. It just doesn't seem like her. Not all families do that, either.

As to Josh--moving to DC has shown him that 4 is a HUGE family to most people these days, especially in an expensive urban area. I've never felt he was out of love with Anna or anything like it--they've just been married a while. I think Anna must be either less fertile than the uber-fertile Michelle or she DOES get some protection from breast feeding and pursues it longer. To me they seem like any other couple dealing with toddlers and babies and jobs and family demands. As to Josh feeling uneducated? We really have no idea if he is doing an online degree--there ARE reputable online degrees. Maybe he refuses to say more in case it becomes too much and he must drop it?

[txmommyof4]

I don't think Josh does near as much as Anna at home and with the kids..obviously that wouldn't make sense. But I do think he is a good and involved father who spends his free time focused on his children. I don't know how mist sahm situations work but my husband does nothing except his job. I do everything inside the house and out including any and all repairs and 100% of childcare and never have alone time. So for those of you with husband's who help (Anna included) you are lucky. I would give my right arm to see my husband half as involved as Josh.

[ClaraOswin]

I don't really think luck has anything to do with it. Before having kids, we talked extensively about how we'd parent our child(ren.) If my husband had said or implied that he wouldn't do anything other than his work or allow me free time...I wouldn't have had a child with him. I know that sometimes people don't really know how their spouse will handle parenthood until it happens though. Especially for people like the Duggars who get married after barely knowing each other. I'm sure there are plenty of surprises (not necessarily good ones.) I feel sad for them because then they are pretty much stuck. Because I think in their world, you wouldn't even confront your husband if you were unhappy in the situation or with the lack of help. I have a few friends like that. They were completely surprised that their husband did nothing once the kids came along. They have struggled and feel very trapped. Though most of them have never actually spoken up to discuss things with their husbands, which I just find odd.

[persephonepomegranate]

Not only do you marry the first one, but you promise in front of dozens maybe hundreds of people that you will leave family size to God.'No one should have to make those kinds of promises promises when you don't know the future or what you can truly handle.It freaked me to hear it at Josh and Anna's wedding

Josh and Anna's vows were cringeworthy all together especially the "joshua under the authority of God and Anna under the authority of joshua" :shock:

[Mama Mia]

Josh probably does more than Jim Bob ever did but I do not believe that he does all THAT much. And this isn't a criticism on anyone here but how is it possible for working men to do as much as sahms? Maybe they do as much when they're home, but unless they're working part time hours they can't be doing AS MUCH as their wives. I don't know, it just sounds like we're falling into that universal trap of giving men bonus points for doing the bare minimum.

But if one parent is earning the income, and the other is aSAHP, it only makes sense for the SAHP to do the bulk of the childcare/homemaking.

Not all, that would be unbalanced the other way, but it would certainly seem, to me, in a two-parent, one income family, the one who is home should do more of the childcare.

I don't see how it's the "bare minimum" for a parent who works outside the home to do their share of childcare when they are at home. It's not exceptional, it's just day to day life for most people, but there's no reason he can't get credit for looking like a good dad, the same way Anna gets credit for looking like a good mom.

Also, I think people are putting to much emphasis on the physical workload when sppeculating on whether Josh wants a zillion kids. Yes the physical, day-to-day impact of caring for them falls much more heavily on Anna. But increasing the number impacts everyone. Just the noise level, the ability to get to the car in one trip, buckling them all in, reading toddlers a bedtime story while a school age one is trying to read aloud while the baby is screamin, squabbles, an older one angry because a younger one knocked over their blocks........and one always sick, or cxranky or in a phase.....Large numbers of children are draining, even if you are the parent with an outside job.

[twinmama]

{L_OFFTOPIC} :

i

But if one parent is earning the income, and the other is aSAHP, it only makes sense for the SAHP to do the bulk of the childcare/homemaking.

Not all, that would be unbalanced the other way, but it would certainly seem, to me, in a two-parent, one income family, the one who is home should do more of the childcare.

I'm a SAHM and my husband is the income right now. When he's at work, I'm doing all childcare and house work. When he comes home, we split childcare. When our twins were infants, we were both up at night doing feeds because there were two babies and two of us. Now, I do all night stuff, he does all early morning stuff. So if they are up 3 times at night needing sips of water or hugs, I deal with it. If they wake up at 5am and want to be up for the day, he deals with it and I sleep. That is our system and it works great for our family, every family has to figure out what works for them.

[lascuba]

But if one parent is earning the income, and the other is aSAHP, it only makes sense for the SAHP to do the bulk of the childcare/homemaking.

Not all, that would be unbalanced the other way, but it would certainly seem, to me, in a two-parent, one income family, the one who is home should do more of the childcare.

I don't see how it's the "bare minimum" for a parent who works outside the home to do their share of childcare when they are at home. It's not exceptional, it's just day to day life for most people, but there's no reason he can't get credit for looking like a good dad, the same way Anna gets credit for looking like a good mom.

Also, I think people are putting to much emphasis on the physical workload when sppeculating on whether Josh wants a zillion kids. Yes the physical, day-to-day impact of caring for them falls much more heavily on Anna. But increasing the number impacts everyone. Just the noise level, the ability to get to the car in one trip, buckling them all in, reading toddlers a bedtime story while a school age one is trying to read aloud while the baby is screamin, squabbles, an older one angry because a younger one knocked over their blocks........and one always sick, or cxranky or in a phase.....Large numbers of children are draining, even if you are the parent with an outside job.

I was responding to the comments the effect that Josh must find fatherhood overwhelming because of all the work he does with his kids. My point was that his wife is a sahm and he's an evangelical Christian, so the "kids are so much work" speculation for not wanting more children doesn't at all apply to him. I agree that if one parent is staying home and the other is earning the income then of course that workload isn't going to be equal, I just don't want to hear that the father is do as much work with the kids as the sahm, when that's not possible for most people. He can do his fair, share when he's home, but it's still not as much as mom, which is where my knee-jerk "bare minimum" remarks come from. (Also, staying at home all day with kids is my idea of hell, and if I somehow found myself in that situation, balls would be twisted off at the tiniest hint that daddy was doing a lot of childcare.)

[ClaraOswin]

Thankfully being a stay at home parent shouldn't happen to you unless you wanted it to so you should be okay...haha.

[lascuba]

Most sahms I know personally sort of fell into it for financial reasons, not out of any real desire, and now they're stuck. I also know a few men who technically became sahp because of unemployment and, yes, you guessed it, they still manage to do less actual childcare work than their working wives. So, yeah, the issue of how much "work" men do when it comes to their kids is a sensitive one for me. One of the many, MANY reason I don't want kids.

[twinmama]

Most sahms I know personally sort of fell into it for financial reasons, not out of any real desire, and now they're stuck. I also know a few men who technically became sahp because of unemployment and, yes, you guessed it, they still manage to do less actual childcare work than their working wives. So, yeah, the issue of how much "work" men do when it comes to their kids is a sensitive one for me. One of the many, MANY reason I don't want kids.

That is super sad. And as a SAHM by choice (only thing I've ever *known* I wanted to do with my life), I can't imagine doing it and NOT wanting to. It is hard and not fun a lot of the time and I 100% chose to do it.

If Josh is stressed or overwhelmed, I think it is probably more due to the fact that the entirety of their financial livelihood rests on his shoulders, not that he is working and doing childcare. I know my husband feels that burden frequently and it is hard. And we only have 2 kids and aren't pressured into more by theology or family or whatever makes Josh and Anna have endless kids.

[jinseng]

In the recent Duggar episode, when Anna jumped on the bed with the kids announcing baby M4 is on the way... I felt like Josh was not really particularly excited. It seemed more like 'well, it was only a matter of time... and here we are'. Anna on the other hand was delirious with excitement. Her kids recognised that and started to mimic her reaction. Josh was looking so fat, tired and worn out, he seems like he really has the weight of the world on his shoulders these days. I'd love to see inside his head and find out how he really feels... I feel sort of sorry for him.

[SassyPants]

I think it's sad that people feel they have to procreate- and that using BC will land them in hell.

I cannot think of many people, men or women, who would be excited at the prospect of a 10th, 15th or 20th baby on the way. Talk about the dilution factor.

There are only 24 hours in each day, no matter who you are-

Look at all the lousy shortcuts JB and M took along the way. Look at all the deficiencies apparent in their kids.

Josh needs to become the leader and start wearing his raincoat.

[JHeathen]

In the recent Duggar episode, when Anna jumped on the bed with the kids announcing baby M4 is on the way... I felt like Josh was not really particularly excited. It seemed more like 'well, it was only a matter of time... and here we are'. Anna on the other hand was delirious with excitement. Her kids recognised that and started to mimic her reaction. Josh was looking so fat, tired and worn out, he seems like he really has the weight of the world on his shoulders these days. I'd love to see inside his head and find out how he really feels... I feel sort of sorry for him.

Well, she DID wake him up...

[HereticHick]

I'm getting an unsettled vibe from the fact that Josiah has only put 3 photos up on his new Instagram. He never struck me as shy (reserved maybe, but also a bit theatrical) and Marjorie we know is definitely theatrical. I just wonder if there is trouble in courtship paradise--or he, or his family, or perhaps Marjorie's family, have been stung by blowback about the kids being so young.

[nastyhobbitses]

I'm getting an unsettled vibe from the fact that Josiah has only put 3 photos up on his new Instagram. He never struck me as shy (reserved maybe, but also a bit theatrical) and Marjorie we know is definitely theatrical. I just wonder if there is trouble in courtship paradise--or he, or his family, or perhaps Marjorie's family, have been stung by blowback about the kids being so young.

Eh, maybe he just can't be bothered to put more stuff up. I used to run a blog for my relatives to read about my life living abroad, and I had such a hard time keeping to any sort of posting schedule. I'm guessing that he's just kind of lazy about using Instagram.

And on a slightly off-topic note, I'm sort of weirded out by the idea of courting at 17/18 - as in, you have decided at 17/18 that you are going to marry this person. I had my first real boyfriend at 17. It was fun for a few months, we had sex once or twice, and then I realized that we just didn't have that much in common and we were going down pretty different paths in life. We broke up amicably and moved on. I couldn't imagine a) marrying that guy (he was perfectly nice, just not someone I want to spend my entire life with) or b) having to explain to my family, community, and national effin' television why I, a 17-year-old girl, will not be marrying the dude I've known intimately for maybe four months.

[Mama Mia]

I was responding to the comments the effect that Josh must find fatherhood overwhelming because of all the work he does with his kids. My point was that his wife is a sahm and he's an evangelical Christian, so the "kids are so much work" speculation for not wanting more children doesn't at all apply to him. I agree that if one parent is staying home and the other is earning the income then of course that workload isn't going to be equal, I just don't want to hear that the father is do as much work with the kids as the sahm, when that's not possible for most people. He can do his fair, share when he's home, but it's still not as much as mom, which is where my knee-jerk "bare minimum" remarks come from. (Also, staying at home all day with kids is my idea of hell, and if I somehow found myself in that situation, balls would be twisted off at the tiniest hint that daddy was doing a lot of childcare.)

I think where I see it differently, is that I think having a large family WILL be a lot of work for him, if he is an even minimally involved father-- and he appears to be very involved. Yes, of course, more work for Anna.

But once you get past a couple of little kids (or even two close in age )---some kid is ALWAYS ineeding attention ,or upset, or sick, or sad, or needing help changing or washing their hands or has a nightmare or wants to play a game or SOMETHING. And the more kids, the more constant it is. And, what people tend to forget-- is that multiple children means their needs/wants/demands/interests/activities are going to be at all sorts of different levels. If you are an adult in a large family- unless you are completely disconnected ( and I know sometimes that happens and it sucks ) it's going to be a lot of work . It just is.

So Josh might be coming home from his job and MAYBE not have to deal with the laundry or cooking or changing diapers in the middle of the night-if Anna does all that --but I can guarentee that with 4 small children he's also not purely relaxing, or just having quality kid time, on his off hours either.

I

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm getting an unsettled vibe from the fact that Josiah has only put 3 photos up on his new Instagram. He never struck me as shy (reserved maybe, but also a bit theatrical) and Marjorie we know is definitely theatrical. I just wonder if there is trouble in courtship paradise--or he, or his family, or perhaps Marjorie's family, have been stung by blowback about the kids being so young.

The boys aren't allowed smartphones. He probably has to borrow someone's phone to use Instagram. I wouldn't bother posting if I had to go through that kind of trouble.

[Dandruff]

In the recent Duggar episode, when Anna jumped on the bed with the kids announcing baby M4 is on the way... I felt like Josh was not really particularly excited. It seemed more like 'well, it was only a matter of time... and here we are'. Anna on the other hand was delirious with excitement. Her kids recognised that and started to mimic her reaction. Josh was looking so fat, tired and worn out, he seems like he really has the weight of the world on his shoulders these days. I'd love to see inside his head and find out how he really feels... I feel sort of sorry for him.

I really think it was staged and what we were seeing was him fake waking up and fake reacting to the news. I don't think he's especially happy or unhappy about it. This is the expected result of not using birth control.

That said, it would be nice if he took better care of himself. He's a role model (to his kids, I don't mean anyone else), his family needs him, and doesn't he care how he looks on TV?