Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[nokidsmom]

To be fair, fundies aren't the only ones who marry at 19 and have a child within the first year. I do think Alyssa took advantage of her family's system to escape to a less strict lifestyle. It would've been nice if she had gone to college and had time to act more her age with parties, spring break trips, etc. before marriage, but that just wasn't in the cards for a Bates daughter. She may or may not have a ton of kids or fully leave the ATI life, but it looks like she did decide early on she wanted something different from her parents. She took charge of her life the best way she could. That deserves some praise.

This is what I think, too. At first, when I heard she was getting married, I was thinking "oh no, she's so young, she's gonna get tied up with a bunch of kids and be an overworked fundie wife in no time!". But now, looking at how happy she seems to be away from her family and loving life, I think she knew exactly what she was doing and took control the one way she knew how.

Sure, we all hope that these fundie young women would break away, go to college and have all the experiences with it, get a job, perhaps live independently before committing to marriage and family. But I think we gotta realize that freedom to them may not look like freedom to us. They are stuck with their parents, they gotta live within their parent's strictures and if they do not, they are considered rebellious and life gets even more restrictive. Sometimes the way to freedom is go along and work the system.

And since she is 20 there's plenty of time to see how she will end up. But right now, I think she wanted out of her parents house, the responsibilities of helping raising her siblings, the cooking, the noise, and what she is doing now, even with having a baby very early, is freedom in comparision.

[actuallyjessica]

AMEN!

[Kak]

This is what I think, too. At first, when I heard she was getting married, I was thinking "oh no, she's so young, she's gonna get tied up with a bunch of kids and be an overworked fundie wife in no time!". But now, looking at how happy she seems to be away from her family and loving life, I think she knew exactly what she was doing and took control the one way she knew how.

Sure, we all hope that these fundie young women would break away, go to college and have all the experiences with it, get a job, perhaps live independently before committing to marriage and family. But I think we gotta realize that freedom to them may not look like freedom to us. They are stuck with their parents, they gotta live within their parent's strictures and if they do not, they are considered rebellious and life gets even more restrictive. Sometimes the way to freedom is go along and work the system.

And since she is 20 there's plenty of time to see how she will end up. But right now, I think she wanted out of her parents house, the responsibilities of helping raising her siblings, the cooking, the noise, and what she is doing now, even with having a baby very early, is freedom in comparision.

I do get what you're saying, but saying that someone chose the best of 2 options makes me sad. I think her life is better now and I think she thinks that too, but we're basically saying she had no real choice at all. OK, she did the best she could at 19, but she'll most likely be married for life. I hope she married because she was crazy in love and not mostly to escape.

[alba]

I do get what you're saying, but saying that someone chose the best of 2 options makes me sad. I think her life is better now and I think she thinks that too, but we're basically saying she had no real choice at all. OK, she did the best she could at 19, but she'll most likely be married for life. I hope she married because she was crazy in love and not mostly to escape.

I think it was a bit of both. I remember my aunt saying that when she was a young adult back in the 60s people tended to marry young because living together before marriage wasn't an option and many young people, especially women, would be staying at home until marriage. I know this contributed to a lot of unhappy marriages, but in the case of my aunt, she loved my uncle deeply and was very happy with him until he passed away, but she also probably wouldn't have married him at 22 if that hadn't been her ticket out of her parents' house and into a life with my uncle.

I get the impression Alyssa and John are similar. They seem very much in love to me, and if they came from normal backgrounds and their paths crossed they may well have ended up married anyway, but probably five or ten years down the line. I think Alyssa married John because she loved John, but she married him *then* because she wanted out of her parents' house.

[Kak]

I think it was a bit of both. I remember my aunt saying that when she was a young adult back in the 60s people tended to marry young because living together before marriage wasn't an option and many young people, especially women, would be staying at home until marriage. I know this contributed to a lot of unhappy marriages, but in the case of my aunt, she loved my uncle deeply and was very happy with him until he passed away, but she also probably wouldn't have married him at 22 if that hadn't been her ticket out of her parents' house and into a life with my uncle.

I get the impression Alyssa and John are similar. They seem very much in love to me, and if they came from normal backgrounds and their paths crossed they may well have ended up married anyway, but probably five or ten years down the line. I think

Alyssa married John because she loved John, but she married him *then* because she wanted out of her parents' house.

I agree with that, but I still think it's sad. It's like marrying due to unplanned pregnancy. You're marrying the guy you love, but there's another factor that acts as the trigger. Without the trigger, who knows?

I may not be romantic enough for this particular little love story. I may be a tad cynical.

[J'Lurker]

I like to think other people's religion is none of my business, until they make it my business. Aside from the occasional #blessed Alyssa's social media could be that of any young mother. She doesn't use it as a pulpit to preach hate under the guise of love and worship. Even if Alyssa isn't the runaway fundie princess we dream of here at FJ, the snippets of her life she shares on social media (and even, the scenes she shoots for BringingUpBates) don't propagate the truly unhealthy cult-attitudes with which she was raised. She can't help the religion/environment she was raised in, and she may never completely break from those views (and we may never know either way... which is okay, since it's not our business) but the fact that she doesn't appear to be actively promoting the lifestyle is plenty good enough for me to have sincere respect for her.

[elizasc]

Here's hoping for continued small steps toward normalcy (or at least away from Gothard)

[DaffyDill]

I think she has a better wardrobe (as in more modern and fashionable choices), and that it's possible Allie Jane will have a slightly more relaxed upbringing than her mother, and probably less siblings. However there is no escaping the fact that as the daughter of a ATI board member, as well as the DIL of an IBLP politician, Alyssa has so far, toed the fundy line of being a very young wife and mother soon after.

It seems as if there is a definite push to make ATI etc more palatable and appealing to people, showing bright, happy women and men in fashionable, yet still modest clothing, instead of the frumpers of the past. If that is true, Alyssa is really a still just a poster child for the 'new' face of the same religion everyone criticises the Duggars for following.

Has she really changed? I don't think so. She has just been able to take advantage of the more relaxed atmosphere/rules. If the same, strict clothing rules applied now as in past years, with the advent of social media, how much ridicule would there be for the Duggars and Bates if they still all wore frumpers and the boys all had the same pants and shirts buttoned at the collar. I don't think a lot of fans of the Duggars /Bateseses really knew or remember much about the frumper days.

Rather than leave / become fundy lite or whatever, I think Alyssa is merely still toeing the line, it's just the line has moved from where it used to be due to a conscious PR move by some savvy ATI'ers.

[CaptainFunderpants]

I think she has a better wardrobe (as in more modern and fashionable choices), and that it's possible Allie Jane will have a slightly more relaxed upbringing than her mother, and probably less siblings. However there is no escaping the fact that as the daughter of a ATI board member, as well as the DIL of an IBLP politician, Alyssa has so far, toed the fundy line of being a very young wife and mother soon after.

It seems as if there is a definite push to make ATI etc more palatable and appealing to people, showing bright, happy women and men in fashionable, yet still modest clothing, instead of the frumpers of the past. If that is true, Alyssa is really a still just a poster child for the 'new' face of the same religion everyone criticises the Duggars for following.

Has she really changed? I don't think so. She has just been able to take advantage of the more relaxed atmosphere/rules. If the same, strict clothing rules applied now as in past years, with the advent of social media, how much ridicule would there be for the Duggars and Bates if they still all wore frumpers and the boys all had the same pants and shirts buttoned at the collar. I don't think a lot of fans of the Duggars /Bateseses really knew or remember much about the frumper days.

Rather than leave / become fundy lite or whatever, I think Alyssa is merely still toeing the line, it's just the line has moved from where it used to be due to a conscious PR move by some savvy ATI'ers.

Too early to fully tell, but... She's not pulling an Anna nor Jessa nor Ben and condemning people to hell regularly. She has some pictures of her at the anti-choice march on Washington, but that was a very social event for fundie women; it would have looked odd had she not been there.

Alyssa is in an interesting position: She's from the far more palatable Bates family, she married an attractive man with a political father, she's fashion-conscious, very smiley, and a person that a wide range of people can relate to. It'll be interesting to see whether she uses the platform, the platform uses her, or if she does take a stand and change her platform at the very least.

[Melissa1977]

Too early to fully tell, but... She's not pulling an Anna nor Jessa nor Ben and condemning people to hell regularly. She has some pictures of her at the anti-choice march on Washington, but that was a very social event for fundie women; it would have looked odd had she not been there.

Alyssa is in an interesting position: She's from the far more palatable Bates family, she married an attractive man with a political father, she's fashion-conscious, very smiley, and a person that a wide range of people can relate to. It'll be interesting to see whether she uses the platform, the platform uses her, or if she does take a stand and change her platform at the very least.

I don't think Alyssa is a very religious person. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure she is a believer!!! but she posts about her life, not about religious beliefs or homofobic messages. She's different than Jill or Jessa. Alyssa is focused on living, not focused on religion or politics. So it's easier to her to become more christian-mainstream.

[imokit]

Its interesting how she's dressing her daughter. Josie Duggar wore a onesie and has been seen ill in hospital in just a diaper/undwear but none of the Duggar girls that I'm aware of were actively dressed in strappy tops (anything other than a dress/skirt with leggings and sleeves of some description).

Allie is being posed in a strappy top in Alyssa's copy of Jill's I'm 2 months old picture.

[SassyPants]

Its interesting how she's dressing her daughter. Josie Duggar wore a onesie and has been seen ill in hospital in just a diaper/undwear but none of the Duggar girls that I'm aware of were actively dressed in strappy tops (anything other than a dress/skirt with leggings and sleeves of some description).

Allie is being posed in a strappy top in Alyssa's copy of Jill's I'm 2 months old picture.

And those cute little mocs retail for about $60.00- my GD sports those too.

[tapdancer493]

I feel like we need an Allie Jane fashion thread :lol:

[JemimaPuddle-Duck]

And those cute little mocs retail for about $60.00- my GD sports those too.

They're on zulily pretty often for around fifteen bucks.

[HereticHick]

Alyssa has posted a pics of a number of baby gifts she's received on Instagram-- one was of about 3 pairs of baby mocs. Since she's good about promoting the sender's business in the photo caption, its good exposure for them.

I bet Chad & Erin are getting tons of gifts from leghumpers as well.

[nokidsmom]

I agree with that, but I still think it's sad. It's like marrying due to unplanned pregnancy. You're marrying the guy you love, but there's another factor that acts as the trigger. Without the trigger, who knows?

I may not be romantic enough for this particular little love story. I may be a tad cynical.

I think it was also a bit of both: that she loved John and she wanted out. It is a throwback to earlier times isnt' it? Especially given her young age. But then a lot of fundies want to turn back time in a lot of aspects don't they?

I know it doesn't seem like the best option to many of us here. It didn't to me but really thinking about her upbringing and the options she was allowed to have, it probably is the best one for her now. I mean, she marries a guy she loves, who loves her, instead of being pushed into marriage ala PT and Priscilla. John works in a business with high demand, he's got skills and can actually provide unlike some useless fundie husbands like John Schrader. Alyssa has some real world work experience herself, she was not a totally sheltered SAHD with no experience and no education. In a nutshell, she's doing better than a lot of fundie wives so far. She's only 20, she has plenty of time to develop and grow. The fact that she's not posting preachy, hateful stuff but just stuff from her life is a good.

As far as whether cute little Allie will have a boatload of siblings....let's see. Somehow I don't think Alyssa is going to try and beat out her mother, she's had enough of that, I think.

[actuallyjessica]

I think it was also a bit of both: that she loved John and she wanted out. It is a throwback to earlier times isnt' it? Especially given her young age. But then a lot of fundies want to turn back time in a lot of aspects don't they?

I know it doesn't seem like the best option to many of us here. It didn't to me but really thinking about her upbringing and the options she was allowed to have, it probably is the best one for her now. I mean, she marries a guy she loves, who loves her, instead of being pushed into marriage ala PT and Priscilla. John works in a business with high demand, he's got skills and can actually provide unlike some useless fundie husbands like John Schrader. Alyssa has some real world work experience herself, she was not a totally sheltered SAHD with no experience and no education. In a nutshell, she's doing better than a lot of fundie wives so far. She's only 20, she has plenty of time to develop and grow. The fact that she's not posting preachy, hateful stuff but just stuff from her life is a good.

As far as whether cute little Allie will have a boatload of siblings....let's see. Somehow I don't think Alyssa is going to try and beat out her mother, she's had enough of that, I think.

has anyone heard or seen john or alyssa say they are leaving their number up to god? the only thing i've heard alyssa say is she could not deal with a large number and then i think rattled off 8 or 10 as her highest. that seems very interesting to me, for someone to specifically say they pretty much don't want more than that... this was right after she got married, too. so very new out of the nest.

[SassyPants]

The disconnect for these folks is the absence of the fact that while little AW is cute and all decked out, 1 baby is not like 1 baby and a toddler, 1 baby, a toddler and 3 pre-schoolers, 1 baby, a toddler, 3 pre-schoolers and 5 grammar school kids, or 1 baby, a toddler, 3 pre-schoolers, 5 grammar school kids and 6 teenagers. Any experience from here on out will be far, far different. Frankly, the differences are so apparent that most people stop at a reasonable, affordable and manageable family size.

WHY? Because as a parent, you would like to do more for each child, and there are only so many hours in each day.

[Lemchop]

The disconnect for these folks is the absence of the fact that while little AW is cute and all decked out, 1 baby is not like 1 baby and a toddler, 1 baby, a toddler and 3 pre-schoolers, 1 baby, a toddler, 3 pre-schoolers and 5 grammar school kids, or 1 baby, a toddler, 3 pre-schoolers, 5 grammar school kids and 6 teenagers. Any experience from here on out will be far, far different. Frankly, the differences are so apparent that most people stop at a reasonable, affordable and manageable family size.

WHY? Because as a parent, you would like to do more for each child, and there are only so many hours in each day.

Exactly. It's easy to tell that Alyssa and John are completely smitten with Allie, but I wonder if they have the common sense to understand that the amount of time, attention, and resources you can devote to each child becomes exponentially smaller each time you add one to the quiver. One baby is wonderful, but that doesn't mean 19 babies are 19 times as wonderful.

John is one of 6 siblings. Not that 6 isn't a lot, but if the Websters were also 100% in the "as many babies as God will give us" camp, wouldn't you expect that number to be a bit higher? I don't know much about fertility, so maybe this is a normal amount for some couples without using any birth control. I guess any family is going to look small next to the Batesseses :lol:

[Alexa]

Exactly. It's easy to tell that Alyssa and John are completely smitten with Allie, but I wonder if they have the common sense to understand that the amount of time, attention, and resources you can devote to each child becomes exponentially smaller each time you add one to the quiver. One baby is wonderful, but that doesn't mean 19 babies are 19 times as wonderful.

John is one of 6 siblings. Not that 6 isn't a lot, but if the Websters were also 100% in the "as many babies as God will give us" camp, wouldn't you expect that number to be a bit higher? I don't know much about fertility, so maybe this is a normal amount for some couples without using any birth control. I guess any family is going to look small next to the Batesseses :lol:

I always wonder how many of the fundie families secretly practice birth control because 6-8 kids is a lot to us non-fundies, you'd think most of them would end up with 10 or more kids since they're aren't using any protection, especially those who married young. I predict Alyssa will have 4 quickly in a row and then put an end to her birthing days.

[SassyPants]

Exactly. It's easy to tell that Alyssa and John are completely smitten with Allie, but I wonder if they have the common sense to understand that the amount of time, attention, and resources you can devote to each child becomes exponentially smaller each time you add one to the quiver. One baby is wonderful, but that doesn't mean 19 babies are 19 times as wonderful.

John is one of 6 siblings. Not that 6 isn't a lot, but if the Websters were also 100% in the "as many babies as God will give us" camp, wouldn't you expect that number to be a bit higher? I don't know much about fertility, so maybe this is a normal amount for some couples without using any birth control. I guess any family is going to look small next to the Batesseses :lol:

Exactly. Which makes me wonder how someone like Jessa S., who once made the comment about what she would do with all the flowers in the world, should be able to make the connection. WTH would she do with 19 children? HOW would she take of all of them, AND just like with flowers, after awhile, each one becomes not only less special, but an exponential burden- they need space, equipment, time, love, protection-

[halcionne]

Exactly. It's easy to tell that Alyssa and John are completely smitten with Allie, but I wonder if they have the common sense to understand that the amount of time, attention, and resources you can devote to each child becomes exponentially smaller each time you add one to the quiver. One baby is wonderful, but that doesn't mean 19 babies are 19 times as wonderful.

John is one of 6 siblings. Not that 6 isn't a lot, but if the Websters were also 100% in the "as many babies as God will give us" camp, wouldn't you expect that number to be a bit higher? I don't know much about fertility, so maybe this is a normal amount for some couples without using any birth control. I guess any family is going to look small next to the Batesseses :lol:

There's a significant age gap between Dan Webster's second and third kid. I suspect there was a...change of philosophy that resulted in more arrows for his quiver.

[Ursula]

halcionne! You're always so good at sleuthing out info on these fundie families and I'm interested in the composition of the Webster family. It's six kids, and from what I can tell, either five boys and one girl or four boys and two girls. I think all but one of them are married (Tori Webster is still single, and is either the youngest or second youngest, I think). I'm also curious whether it would be possible to find out when the married Webster kids got hitched and how old their spouses were/are.

The reason I'm curious is THIS PICTURE

Pictured here is Taliban Dan, Wife of Taliban Dan and their 11 (so far) grandchildren. Now, I'm assuming based on what those kiddos are wearing that they are colour coded to their sibling group. This is VERY intriguing to me because the three in the back, the oldest three, in red...ARE ONLY THREE. THREE! What quiverfucked family has only THREE blessings? Granted something horrible could have happened to the mother during her third pregnancy that left her infertile, but it could also be the parents of those three decided three was enough! The other sibling groups are harder to place.

Allie is being held by Taliban Dan, that's easy enough to tell. Wife of Taliban Dan is holding the daughter of Olivia (great-niece of Got-Hard) and Jordan Webster, so far their only child as well, and another baby girl. I don't know if other baby girl is the youngest sibling to the two boys on the left or the three girls on the right. The two girls on the right dressed in white shirts and shorts are most likely siblings and not cousins because they look very much alike but I'm not sure about the older girl behind them, who seems to be wearing a darker coloured shirt, so she could be sister to the two boys on the left who are wearing black/dark navy.

But regardless of sibling groupings and what have you, it's clear that Alyssa now has sibling-in-laws who CLEARLY SPACE PREGNANCIES and possibly STOPPED THEM ALL TOGETHER AFTER ONLY THREE.

That to me is FAR more of a big deal than her wearing pants and tank-tops. Alyssa will most likely always be anti-choice and a raging homophobe. But if her and John are influenced by their siblings/sibling-in-laws to MAKE FEWER CHILDREN over the course of the next 20+ years Alyssa is fertile, meaning one less anti-choice, homophobic child brought up in this shitshow, I consider that a win.

I do realize Alyssa is still very, VERY young with lots of fertile years ahead of her. Her sister-in-laws with fewer kids could have gotten married much older and three kids is all they were "blessed" with before their ovaries said NO MORE. But I can hope it was an intentional choice on those couple's parts and that it rubs off on Alyssa and John!

[elizasc]

Fingers crossed that you're right

[Pretzel]

Ursula that's an interesting POV and I hopt that you're right.