Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[notfundy]

So Alyssa wears pants now, which is great.  I have a real quick question . . . does Erin Bates also wear pants; & has she always?  I know she's a daughter-in-law but I'm just keeping track of who may be going fundy-lite in the Bates family; I don't follow them closely.   

[VaSportsMom]

So Alyssa wears pants now, which is great.  I have a real quick question . . . does Erin Bates also wear pants; & has she always?  I know she's a daughter-in-law but I'm just keeping track of who may be going fundy-lite in the Bates family; I don't follow them closely.   

 

 

Do you mean Whitney? She's the only daughter-in-law. Whitney used to wear pants but was convicted to go skirts only after beginning a courtship (or w/e the Bates are calling it) with Zach.

AFAIK, Erin is and always has been skirts only. Alyssa is the only Bates girl to publicly wear pants and sleeveless tops.

 

 

 

[Diana]

 

Do you mean Whitney? She's the only daughter-in-law. Whitney used to wear pants but was convicted to go skirts only after beginning a courtship (or w/e the Bates are calling it) with Zach.

AFAIK, Erin is and always has been skirts only. Alyssa is the only Bates girl to publicly wear pants and sleeveless tops.

 

 

 

Whitney and Zach didnt have a courtship, they meet the regular way and kissed before marriage.

[notfundy]

Ah, OK - thanks.  I have to go read up on my Bates family.  

[actuallyjessica]

They did have a courtship. It was very well documented on Kelly's blog.

[Diana]

They did have a courtship. It was very well documented on Kelly's blog.

I thought the term "courtship" was only used for when you meet a aproved spouse by your parents and allways with chaperones and no kissing. Thats not the case here so how it can be called that? It was dating.

[imokit]

It was meeting, getting attracted and then going to the parents to tell them to courting.  Officially they're calling it courting, in reality it was probably somewhere between courting and dating.  The kissing was no ideal and once officially courting they had chaperones ( they must have snuck off or kissed pre courting)

[princessmahina]

I think they called it a courtship. I seem to recall some kind of weird celebration thing when he asked to court her. They had to make it palatable to the Bates family somehow. I'm not sure how they got around the chaperones and kissed (probably at Sonic, I would guess), but they did. 

[veron1que]

They called it a courtship. 

The post on the Bates blog is http://thebatesfamily.com/courtship-chronicle/

Hopefully I broke the link correctly. 

[actuallyjessica]

They called it a courtship. 

The post on the Bates blog is http://thebatesfamily.com/courtship-chronicle/

Hopefully I broke the link correctly. 

You don't need to break links anymore.

[veron1que]

Oh really? Thank goodness. I've haven't really been on here since before the Joshgate thing and haven't quite caught up with rule changes. I always hated that rule. Thanks

[Jigsaw3]

When I see Whitney's IG photos and she's only shown from the waist up, I always wonder if she's wearing pants out of shot. I wouldn't be surprised if she wears yoga pants around the house and skirts up if she's seeing her inlaws.

As for Whit and Zach's courtship, as much as Kelly claims they had chaperones, I doubt they always did.

[actuallyjessica]

When I see Whitney's IG photos and she's only shown from the waist up, I always wonder if she's wearing pants out of shot. I wouldn't be surprised if she wears yoga pants around the house and skirts up if she's seeing her inlaws.

As for Whit and Zach's courtship, as much as Kelly claims they had chaperones, I doubt they always did.

I agree! And I do believe Kelly mentioned in her blog comments that the courting couples (at the time they were Zach & Whit, Erin & Chad and also Alyssa & John) E&C chose to have their texting/calling monitored, but Z&W and A&J did not... And then I thiiiiiink Z&W came to Kelly and Gil and "decided" to begin to have theirs monitored. Anyone else remember reading said comment(s)? So I wonder if there was some photo sending or something going on, or this was after the kissing before marriage was revealed and that's why they put a stop to it.

I think the same about Whitney's IG photos! I think she does wear pants at least some of the time. On their honeymoon they did the same trick, and on one of the shots you see she took her skirt off and was just wearing leggings/yoga pants because they went hiking. At least she has common sense when it comes to exercise apparel.

And I wouldn't be surprised that when the younger sisters go to visit Alyssa, she has a secret pants stash and let's them wear them. I cannot see Tori, Carlin, Josie & Katie ever sticking to skirts-only once they move out. Erin and definitely Michael will still stay in skirts, but wouldn't be surprised to see Erin in pants occasionally down the track. Her clothing choices have evolved in the past year or so, IMO.

I just find fundy girls wearing pants so interesting, and I'm not sure why. Maybe because it kind of gives me hope that they are rejecting Gothard's teachings little by little. I know people have said that its part of a game plan to become more appealing to the masses, but on the off chance that the pants-wearing has nothing to do with that... I still hold out hope.

[nastyhobbitses]

When I see Whitney's IG photos and she's only shown from the waist up, I always wonder if she's wearing pants out of shot. I wouldn't be surprised if she wears yoga pants around the house and skirts up if she's seeing her inlaws.

As for Whit and Zach's courtship, as much as Kelly claims they had chaperones, I doubt they always did.

I did notice that in a lot of IG photos where Alyssa is visiting with her parents, she's often wearing knee-length or longer skirts and more modest tops, even if they're visiting her. I think that it's mainly out of respect for Kelly and Gil, since she's been happily running around in tank tops and skinny jeans otherwise.

Also, I remember seeing photos of Joy wearing a skirt just sort of thrown over pajama pants. I wouldn't be surprised if she wore the pants by themselves in private, and then threw on the skirt when there was a camera out.

[RosyDaisy]

Just to be clear, not all fundies have such strict dress codes. I know many fundie women who wear t-shirts/jeans and modest one piece swimsuits.

Ummm...nobody comes into my house and tells me what to wear. My husband doesn't even get a say. Alyssa needs to grow a backbone and set some boundaries when her family visits.

[actuallyjessica]

Just to be clear, not all fundies have such strict dress codes. I know many fundie women who wear t-shirts/jeans and modest one piece swimsuits.

Ummm...nobody comes into my house and tells me what to wear. My husband doesn't even get a say. Alyssa needs to grow a backbone and set some boundaries when her family visits.

I'm aware of this, but it is a 180 from what they've grown up with so it makes me take notice. I agree about her setting boundaries, I don't think her family of origin are going to take her new convictions seriously unless she sticks to her guns. It can't be bought down to maybe she just wanted to wear a skirt/dress that day. Unlikely. She is 90% of the time in no sleeves and pants in her IG pics unless she's around The Bates, or at church, where it is common to wear a dress.

[nokidsmom]

 

I'm aware of this, but it is a 180 from what they've grown up with so it makes me take notice. I agree about her setting boundaries, I don't think her family of origin are going to take her new convictions seriously unless she sticks to her guns. It can't be bought down to maybe she just wanted to wear a skirt/dress that day. Unlikely. She is 90% of the time in no sleeves and pants in her IG pics unless she's around The Bates, or at church, where it is common to wear a dress.

What's interesting to me is that Kelly has gone on record stating that once married and in their own homes, the kids can decide what they want to do as far as beliefs, dress etc. though IIRC she still expects same married kids to continue to respect the dress code when they come back to visit her home.   That's fine, but if they are visiting Alyssa's home, well then, that's another set of rules.   However if Alyssa chooses to accommodate her parents' dress code out of respect, and if that's her choice, then fine.   But I would not be surprised if behind the scenes Kelly doesn't like her daughter wearing pants and deciding to wear them so soon after getting out of the family home.   Alyssa wasted no time at all wearing sleeveless tops and jeans, something that I think would actually bother Kelly.   So it's possible that Alyssa doesn't want the hassle but I don't get the feeling that she sees her parents as often as the other married kids, so maybe it's no big deal to her.  She's only been out of the family home for a couple of years now, so maybe later she might not care what her mother thinks later on.  

Remember these are uber controlling parents.   And Kelly talks a good game making her family look more mainstream, less fundie, more "normal" than they actually are.   I don't think uber controlling parents, who insist on courtship / dating with a purpose (or whatever they call it now), get upset when their mid-20's son kisses a girl (who gives a shit? I would expect my son to have probably done a lot more than that by 25 but maybe that's just me) insist same son and his gf go into chaperoned courtship when they find out he's seeing her at Sonic (over parental involvement, bug off)  and conducts the remainder of their limited sex education to their engaged adult children weeks before marriage (skeevy), these are not parents are really going like watching their kids change things once they are out of the family home.  So my bet is on that Kelly really doesn't like her daughter wearing pants.  And I find it telling that some of Whit's IG photos on the honeymoon were from the waist up.  

Getting totally out of fundieland is going to take time.   Maybe Alyssa wearing pants is indicative of that, maybe not, but really what matters is that she wears what is comfortable to her at whatever stage she is at.

[nastyhobbitses]

What's interesting to me is that Kelly has gone on record stating that once married and in their own homes, the kids can decide what they want to do as far as beliefs, dress etc. though IIRC she still expects same married kids to continue to respect the dress code when they come back to visit her home.   That's fine, but if they are visiting Alyssa's home, well then, that's another set of rules.   However if Alyssa chooses to accommodate her parents' dress code out of respect, and if that's her choice, then fine.   But I would not be surprised if behind the scenes Kelly doesn't like her daughter wearing pants and deciding to wear them so soon after getting out of the family home.   Alyssa wasted no time at all wearing sleeveless tops and jeans, something that I think would actually bother Kelly.   So it's possible that Alyssa doesn't want the hassle but I don't get the feeling that she sees her parents as often as the other married kids, so maybe it's no big deal to her.  She's only been out of the family home for a couple of years now, so maybe later she might not care what her mother thinks later on.  

Remember these are uber controlling parents.   And Kelly talks a good game making her family look more mainstream, less fundie, more "normal" than they actually are.   I don't think uber controlling parents, who insist on courtship / dating with a purpose (or whatever they call it now), get upset when their mid-20's son kisses a girl (who gives a shit? I would expect my son to have probably done a lot more than that by 25 but maybe that's just me) insist same son and his gf go into chaperoned courtship when they find out he's seeing her at Sonic (over parental involvement, bug off)  and conducts the remainder of their limited sex education to their engaged adult children weeks before marriage (skeevy), these are not parents are really going like watching their kids change things once they are out of the family home.  So my bet is on that Kelly really doesn't like her daughter wearing pants.  And I find it telling that some of Whit's IG photos on the honeymoon were from the waist up.  

Getting totally out of fundieland is going to take time.   Maybe Alyssa wearing pants is indicative of that, maybe not, but really what matters is that she wears what is comfortable to her at whatever stage she is at.

I don't doubt for a minute that Kelly is peeved about Alyssa being so "rebellious" and essentially doing a total 180 (by her standards) as soon as she left home. However, I think with time she'll realize that she won't win and will clam up about it for the sake of family peace. I think that Kelly and Gil are controlling, but I think they pick their battles much more than the Duggars do. They know how to be sneakier about how controlling they are, and I'm sure they've already figured that a few kids will go rogue, but as long as they don't stray too far, they can tolerate a certain amount of deviance. I liken it to the modern Chinese government: very measured, calculated, superficial liberalization, because it's easier to maintain control when you pick your battles and give people the illusion of freedom and choice.

[Charliemae]

When I see Whitney's IG photos and she's only shown from the waist up, I always wonder if she's wearing pants out of shot. I wouldn't be surprised if she wears yoga pants around the house and skirts up if she's seeing her inlaws.

As for Whit and Zach's courtship, as much as Kelly claims they had chaperones, I doubt they always did.

When they met Whit was working at Sonic,and Zack made a lot of Sonic stops.   I like to imagine them smooching out back during smoke breaks. 

 

 

 

And I wouldn't be surprised that when the younger sisters go to visit Alyssa, she has a secret pants stash and let's them wear them. I cannot see Tori, Carlin, Josie & Katie ever sticking to skirts-only once they move out. Erin and definitely Michael will still stay in skirts, but wouldn't be surprised to see Erin in pants occasionally down the track. Her clothing choices have evolved in the past year or so, IMO.

 

I just find fundy girls wearing pants so interesting, and I'm not sure why. Maybe because it kind of gives me hope that they are rejecting Gothard's teachings little by little. I know people have said that its part of a game plan to become more appealing to the masses, but on the off chance that the pants-wearing has nothing to do with that... I still hold out hope.

 

 

I would be truly shocked if any of the marrieds broke their parents trust like that with their younger siblings.  It's a huge risk, if Gil or Kelly found out they wouldn't be allowed to see their younger siblings again. My current theory is Alyssa gets to wear pants because her father in law is in politics and she has a PR or image consultant making sure none of them come of wackadoodle to the mainstream christian voters. 

As for Erin, I think she's into the patriarchy and happens to have, what appears to be, a caring headship.  So if she wanted to wear pants I don't see Chad denying that.  That's the thing though, as long as they believe that the ultimate decision on their looks is up to their headship, it's unhealthy.  

I did notice that in a lot of IG photos where Alyssa is visiting with her parents, she's often wearing knee-length or longer skirts and more modest tops, even if they're visiting her. I think that it's mainly out of respect for Kelly and Gil, since she's been happily running around in tank tops and skinny jeans otherwise.

Also, I remember seeing photos of Joy wearing a skirt just sort of thrown over pajama pants. I wouldn't be surprised if she wore the pants by themselves in private, and then threw on the skirt when there was a camera out.

I really doubt this, they talked about sleeping in skirts before.  I can't image where "private" would be for a Duggar.  They would for sure have to put a skirt on before leaving the girls room.  Can't be out there defrauding their brothers.... ugh. 

 

[nokidsmom]

I don't doubt for a minute that Kelly is peeved about Alyssa being so "rebellious" and essentially doing a total 180 (by her standards) as soon as she left home. However, I think with time she'll realize that she won't win and will clam up about it for the sake of family peace. I think that Kelly and Gil are controlling, but I think they pick their battles much more than the Duggars do. They know how to be sneakier about how controlling they are, and I'm sure they've already figured that a few kids will go rogue, but as long as they don't stray too far, they can tolerate a certain amount of deviance. I liken it to the modern Chinese government: very measured, calculated, superficial liberalization, because it's easier to maintain control when you pick your battles and give people the illusion of freedom and choice.

It seems that Kelly and Gil are able to learn that things might not go quite exactly the way they want with regards to their grown kids.   They did modify their stance on courtship after Zach's first courtship flamed out.  I think they would really prefer that their kids stuck with the exact same beliefs / lifestyle and will grouse about it when it's not happening with a given adult child.  They might try to get the adult child to reconsider the choice but will also relent (eventually) if the child pushes back and the issue at hand is more acceptable.     There's certain things not worth fighting over and in the grand scheme of all things ATI, wearing pants is a relatively small issue.  

[Charliemae]

It seems that Kelly and Gil are able to learn that things might not go quite exactly the way they want with regards to their grown kids.   They did modify their stance on courtship after Zach's first courtship flamed out.  I think they would really prefer that their kids stuck with the exact same beliefs / lifestyle and will grouse about it when it's not happening with a given adult child.  They might try to get the adult child to reconsider the choice but will also relent (eventually) if the child pushes back.     There's certain things not worth fighting over and in the grand scheme of all things ATI, wearing pants is a relatively small issue.  

I think they are just good at damage control and image management.  

I really don't think they care that Alyssa wears pants as long as she has a babies for Jesus and submits to her headship. 

[nokidsmom]

I think they are just good at damage control and image management.  

I really don't think they care that Alyssa wears pants as long as she has a babies for Jesus and submits to her headship. 

Totally agree that they are good at damage control, Kelly seems much more media savvy and knows exactly how to present her family in a more acceptable, palatable light.   She's had the advantage of looking to the Duggars in order to see what not to do but also I think she's just plain smarter than JB and J'chelle in knowing about will be acceptable to the public.   The recent MK interviews following Joshgate 1.0 was a prime example of how the Duggars were clueless in how to do damage control.  I can't see Kelly and Gil doing an interview like that at all, even in the face of a family scandal.

Maybe Kelly doesn't really care about Alyssa's pants, granted Alyssa married into a conservative political family with ATI ties and maybe that's good enough.  But somehow I think that Kelly winced a bit at seeing how fast Alyssa did a 180 in terms of her dress.   And remember the family "convicted" Whit to go skirts only so yes, dress is a big enough deal to them to have had to do that.    Also IIRC, some of the Bateseses girls went looking into Alyssa's closet after she moved to Florida, so that tells me that the dress code is rather important. 

[nausicaa]

It was meeting, getting attracted and then going to the parents to tell them to courting.  Officially they're calling it courting, in reality it was probably somewhere between courting and dating.  The kissing was no ideal and once officially courting they had chaperones ( they must have snuck off or kissed pre courting)

I believe the Maxwells call that "dourting." 

[EmainMacha]

Agree with the posters saying about Kelly and Gil not being thrilled with the switch to trousers and that Dan Webster was probably eager for Alyssa to look 'normal' for his campaign. Though I bet Alyssa jumped willingly into those skinny jeans.

What interests me is that Kelly and Gil ask the married kids to stick to their standards when at the Bates home. Please someone correct my fundie logic but, with their daughters, isn't the headship meant to be their husbands? So if John (or Chad or Brandon) says 'wear trousers' shouldn't that trump what Kelly or Gil wants, whether it's in their home or not? 

I realise it's about manners and respect but still leaving and cleaving doesn't stop at the parents front door does it?

[nastyhobbitses]

Agree with the posters saying about Kelly and Gil not being thrilled with the switch to trousers and that Dan Webster was probably eager for Alyssa to look 'normal' for his campaign. Though I bet Alyssa jumped willingly into those skinny jeans.

What interests me is that Kelly and Gil ask the married kids to stick to their standards when at the Bates home. Please someone correct my fundie logic but, with their daughters, isn't the headship meant to be their husbands? So if John (or Chad or Brandon) says 'wear trousers' shouldn't that trump what Kelly or Gil wants, whether it's in their home or not? 

I realise it's about manners and respect but still leaving and cleaving doesn't stop at the parents front door does it?

I guess you could say that Alyssa's rationale for marriage was getting into pants...in both senses of the expression.

I'm conflicted about the whole "dress by our rules when you're home" thing. On the one hand, I would dress more modestly or in accordance with cultural/religious norms if I were going to the home of a very religious person, since it's just simple respect. On the other, it seems very controlling with regard to the other kids. I mean, of course they'll see pictures of Alyssa romping about in skinny jeans, and they'll see her dressed like that when they go to visit her, but it seems like Kelly and Gil don't want the younger kids to think "well, Alyssa wears jeans and tank tops and cuts/dyes her hair, and she's still a Bible-believing Christian, so why can't I dress like that?"