Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[Geechee Girl]

Good for them! Staying in a hotel 30min away is no reason for the shade she's getting on IG. I hope this thread doesn't devolve into mommy wars round 3.

[HereticHick]

Good for them. And good for her for wearing what appears to be just 2 tank tops in her latest IG. She no longer gives a f**k about Gothard modesty rules.

[Melissa1977]

I think she would really really enjoy a disco. She seems really a funny girl, sure she'd love dancing. Do you think they'd try disco or it is too much for them?

I remember her pictures at the beginning their relationship, with a ugly black dress and cheap grandma jewellry,, and now she's fashion and happy!

Oh yes, Alyssa is smart, she played the fundie-perfect-daughter and she scaped. Maybe she's still deeply fundie, but is not looking after 10 children and cooking and cleaning and buying used.

[nelliebelle1197]

I think she would really really enjoy a disco. She seems really a funny girl, sure she'd love dancing. Do you think they'd try disco or it is too much for them?

I remember her pictures at the beginning their relationship, with a ugly black dress and cheap grandma jewellry,, and now she's fashion and happy!

Oh yes, Alyssa is smart, she played the fundie-perfect-daughter and she scaped. Maybe she's still deeply fundie, but is not looking after 10 children and cooking and cleaning and buying used.

What did she escape? Her husband and inlaws are part of ATI/IBLP.

[sense and nonsense]

What did she escape? Her husband and inlaws are part of ATI/IBLP.

Also, neither is Jill cooking and cleaning for 10. The Duggars are far better off than the Bates money wise, so I'm pretty sure Jill doesn't buy used and save the difference either. If that is your logic, then Jill has 'escaped' too.

It's great that Alyssa recognises that her clothing is not responsible for stirring ungodly desires, but we have no indication that her daughter won't be homeschooled with the same excuse for a curriculum that is ATI or that 10 years down the line she won't have eleventy kids despite the tank tops and jeans.

[nokidsmom]

What did she escape? Her husband and inlaws are part of ATI/IBLP.

For all the hopeful signs, this is the one thing that gives me pause about her "escape" fully out of ATI.

True, she escaped cooking and looking after her siblings, she's updated her clothing, she seems free and happy and having FUN! I think she knew exactly what she was doing when she married John. She wanted out of that life and I don't blame her but it remains to be seen how she will be long term.

[MissBitters]

Also, neither is Jill cooking and cleaning for 10. The Duggars are far better off than the Bates money wise, so I'm pretty sure Jill doesn't buy used and save the difference either. If that is your logic, then Jill has 'escaped' too.

It's great that Alyssa recognises that her clothing is not responsible for stirring ungodly desires, but we have no indication that her daughter won't be homeschooled with the same excuse for a curriculum that is ATI or that 10 years down the line she won't have eleventy kids despite the tank tops and jeans.

On the same vein, we have no indication that she will use the ATI curriculum at all or will have 20 kids like her mom. I am willing to give all of the current fundie kids a chance to deviate from their parents' paths. Do I think I all of them will become liberals who send their children to public school and encourage their daughters to pursue a career? Hell no. I do think some of them like Alyssa are questioning their upbringing and deciding to be a little less rigid, though. That's gives me some hope that maybe Allie's generation and beyond will completely leave the fundie lifestyle. So until Alyssa proves otherwise, I am going to celebrate her little changes with the hope something bigger comes out of it :)

[Melissa1977]

Also, neither is Jill cooking and cleaning for 10. The Duggars are far better off than the Bates money wise, so I'm pretty sure Jill doesn't buy used and save the difference either. If that is your logic, then Jill has 'escaped' too.

It's great that Alyssa recognises that her clothing is not responsible for stirring ungodly desires, but we have no indication that her daughter won't be homeschooled with the same excuse for a curriculum that is ATI or that 10 years down the line she won't have eleventy kids despite the tank tops and jeans.

Alyssa is showing all these pictures of her in jeans and sleveless because SHE KNOWS it'd piss her parents. If she was really submissive, maybe she'd wear pants, but not in instagram.

I say she scaped because she was stuck in poverty and hard work and now she's glowing. Jill has not scaped, she's telling same things, and living as she was teached to do.

Scape doesn't mean she changes everything, just means that she feels obviously happier, more free and selfconfident.

[sense and nonsense]

Alyssa is showing all these pictures of her in jeans and sleveless because SHE KNOWS it'd piss her parents. If she was really submissive, maybe she'd wear pants, but not in instagram.

I say she scaped because she was stuck in poverty and hard work and now she's glowing. Jill has not scaped, she's telling same things, and living as she was teached to do.

Scape doesn't mean she changes everything, just means that she feels obviously happier, more free and selfconfident.

Yeah, no.

If she'd really 'escaped', we wouldn't know because of some Instagram pictures, we can only decide if she clearly renounces ATI curriculum and IBLP.

A few Instagram pictures aren't really a true reflection of her life. She may actually be trying to make the lifestyle more attractive to young girls through her Instagram. She may also be leaving the lifestyle.

Why do I bother anymore? You're still going to look at her next Instagram picture and decide she is defying her parents. Or whatever other conclusion you want to jump to.

[alba]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Alyssa has escaped, but I do think she is beginning to question what her parents/ATI taught her. It's not *what* she wears, but her attitude about it, that I think is significant; she quite simply doesn't believe it's a woman's responsibility to control men's sexual desires. Does this mean her attitude to birth control or same-sex marriage will also change? Of course not. However, at the very least Allie Jane might get to run around the beach in a normal swimsuit instead of being taught to slut-shame girls who do. And I consider that to be progress.

It'll take a lot more than a defense of her clothing choices to make me believe she's truly escaped from ATI, but for the time being I'm cautiously optimistic that she might do so.

[nelliebelle1197]

Alyssa is showing all these pictures of her in jeans and sleveless because SHE KNOWS it'd piss her parents. If she was really submissive, maybe she'd wear pants, but not in instagram.

I say she scaped because she was stuck in poverty and hard work and now she's glowing. Jill has not scaped, she's telling same things, and living as she was teached to do.

Scape doesn't mean she changes everything, just means that she feels obviously happier, more free and selfconfident.

\\

I am really glad you have a pipeline to Alyssa's brain. It makes everything so much easier.

So, how do you know she felt trapped before? And how do you know she is saying FU to mom? You do know that the Websters are from a branch of ATI with different modesty standards, right? But they are just fundy as the Bateses, and you can be damn sure Mr. IBLP Board Member Gil Bates did not allow his daughter to marry outside the fold.

Have you seen Gil and Kelly's house? Not exactly grinding poverty. You know right up until the baby was born Alyssa was cleaning other people's toilets with John in his office cleaning business, right?

I am sure she is happier. She just had a baby. Not only that, she gets to be part of her crazy, conservative, tea party father in law's wholesome family picture. It's a little glamorous. She is living in her own house and making her own decisions about that household for the first time in her life. But she "escaped" to a different version of what she already knew.

[HereticHick]

"You know right up until the baby was born Alyssa was cleaning other people's toilets with John in his office cleaning business, right? "

I am unclear about the point of this statement. John has a 2nd business, and Alyssa helps with it. What is wrong with that?

Or do you just like to sneer at people who work hard cleaning your toilets?

[Lemchop]

I know this is crazy wishful thinking, but this reminds me of the kind of picture you'd take after a glass of wine or two :cracking-up:

I'm just glad that Alyssa seems happy. For the first time in her life she is receiving undivided attention from someone she loves (that goes for all the married children), is hanging out with friends outside of her immediate family, has autonomy over her own household and daily activities, and has more freedom with how to express herself clothing-wise. Yes, she might still be drinking heavy koolaid, and her new in-laws are undoubtedly a part of the same brand of crazy as the Bates's. But you can't ignore the positive changes.

That said, I'm waiting to see what their choices will be regarding additional children and schooling. Those are things that could indicate more meaningful change in Alyssa and John's beliefs, if there are any.

[nelliebelle1197]

"You know right up until the baby was born Alyssa was cleaning other people's toilets with John in his office cleaning business, right? "

I am unclear about the point of this statement. John has a 2nd business, and Alyssa helps with it. What is wrong with that?

Or do you just like to sneer at people who work hard cleaning your toilets?

Did you read the other post before you bothered to reply? I guess not. The poster stated Alyssa was working hard and living in poverty. She is still working hard (or was until the baby was born - I could not imagine cleaning for other people 8 mos. pregnant; that had to have been difficult), a fact the poster did not know or glossed over to prove that Alyssa "scape(d)" to some sort of utopia. How you got "sneer" from that is your own issue.

[Kak]

Did you read the other post before you bothered to reply? I guess not. The poster stated Alyssa was working hard and living in poverty. She is still working hard (or was until the baby was born - I could not imagine cleaning for other people 8 mos. pregnant; that had to have been difficult), a fact the poster did not know or glossed over to prove that Alyssa "scape(d)" to some sort of utopia. How you got "sneer" from that is your own issue.

Your point was clear NB. There's nothing wrong with Alyssa helping John in that business, I admire her for it. But glamorous it isn't. (Toilet cleaning)

Edited for clarity

[Luisainlondon1]

Alyssa has a new photo up on instagram. She wears a very cute sleeveless dress that doesn't cover her knees. She looks great!

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Love that dress!

I agree with the PP with that she is rejecting some of what her parents believe. But she is still ATI for now so will be interesting to see her evolving into a fundie lite women or if she will become more conservative again.

I have high hopes for her :)

[formergothardite]

For all those people who think that because she wears pants/sleeveless shirts that means she is rejecting IBLP/ATI, you should take a look at Alfred's family(I can't remember his last name but he comments on Recovering Grace). Alfred is a rabid believer in all things Gothard/ATI/IBLP. He has seen Gothard ignore one of his own daughters for not being skinny and pretty enough and instead choosing one of his other daughters who was less qualified for the job but was prettier and skinnier, and he defended Gothard's actions. He is one of the most biggest Gothard fans ever. Guess what? His wife and kids wear shorts, sleeveless shirts, and tight pants. How Alyssa is dressing is no indication that she is rejecting the Gothard belief system. It isn't any indication that she is trying to piss off her parents by posting them on instagram. I would be surprised if they didn't know beforehand that Alyssa was going to switch to dressing this way. All we know is that Alyssa has decided to start dressing differently than her parents, but well within the belief current ATI belief system. She has not, as far as I can tell, given any indication that she is rejecting the teachings of Bill Gothard.

[16strong]

One thing that has stood out to me way more than her wardrobe is that Alyssa has posted and tagged pictures of her and John attending at least 2 or 3 different churches in Orlando since her wedding. They have so far tended towards the ifb/more conservative baptist type. It makes me wonder if they keep visiting these churches that are in line with their parents' beliefs and keep leaving dissatisfied, so move on to the next church. They haven't tagged a specific church in awhile, which makes me wonder if they still haven't picked a home church.

[formergothardite]

Church hopping in ATI families was pretty common, so even that doesn't seem to me to be a sign that she has changed her belief system. I'm sure they have changed some beliefs, but I haven't seen anything that made me think she has changed her beliefs as much as some people would like to think.

[silverspoons]

She choose to get married young. Maybe it was true love or maybe to escape, either the large family or parts of her lifestyle, who knows? She has stated she doesn't want 19 kids, but by marrying at 19, she is likely without birth control to have a large family , at least 12 unless she runs into health issues. So I guess we will see our answer in the next 10 years not be her cute dresses or the church she attends but how many kids she has and how spaced out they are. Until I see an Alyssa having only 3 kids in the next 10 years and starts homeschooling with other then ATI only, I will not believe she has changed her mindset drastically.

[quiversR4hunting]

Church hopping in ATI families was pretty common, so even that doesn't seem to me to be a sign that she has changed her belief system. I'm sure they have changed some beliefs, but I haven't seen anything that made me think she has changed her beliefs as much as some people would like to think.

So if they tag (as in attending not attacking and not on the campaign trail for FIL) a Methodist, Catholic or Lutheran church, then maybe it's something. Is that right formergotharite?

[JillyO]

Obviously, I know much less about ATI than formergothardite, but it seems to me that Alyssa's comments saying that she is not responsible for men's sexual thoughts about her are kind of a drastic change from what she was taught growing up.

Apart from that, we have no other choice but to wait and see how things progress from here on out.

[sense and nonsense]

Till now, the two things Alyssa has done that we know as facts: get married young, have a baby early in the marriage (probably without BC) - all perfectly in line with ATI/IBLP.

Yes, she may have worn pants. This may not have been an act of defiance, just something her head ship or his family 'allows'.

Things we like to think Alyssa has done: wear swimsuits, wear shorts, try to piss off her parents on Instagram, had a feud with Erin, drink wine, start using BC after Allie Jane, denounced ATI, become an estranged daughter, and many more.

Yes, we've seen her wearing pants. That's doesn't disqualify her from Gothardism. It doesn't even prove she's questioning her beliefs, her IL's are very lose on the dress code, but just as tight on the important issues like BC and abortion.

And yes, while some might think that wearing pants is a great freedom for her, I think freedom will only come when she's allowed to make basic decisions about her own body, like birth control.

[SassyPants]

She choose to get married young. Maybe it was true love or maybe to escape, either the large family or parts of her lifestyle, who knows? She has stated she doesn't want 19 kids, but by marrying at 19, she is likely without birth control to have a large family , at least 12 unless she runs into health issues. So I guess we will see our answer in the next 10 years not be her cute dresses or the church she attends but how many kids she has and how spaced out they are. Until I see an Alyssa having only 3 kids in the next 10 years and starts homeschooling with other then ATI only, I will not believe she has changed her mindset drastically.

Agree. As a woman, the fact that this group views women as nothing more than incubators is revolting.

Let's see her space out the kids and I'll see it as a bigger indicator than wearing a sleeveless top or pants.

One of the best ways to decrease poverty is be using BC- Fundy royalty can get by relatively unscathed, but the balance, not so much.