Alyssa Bates/Webster is wearing PANTS!!

[Melissa1977]

Regarding the picture, there are 4 children in black t-shirt including a baby so these children can be of a quiverful couple (4 is not a big deal but as one is still a baby it means they can increase children in the future). So, red family is supposedly using birth control but we don't know about the white or the black families. Don't forget they are young, they have few children because they have not been married for a long time.

Normal fertility gives 10-12 children...19 is not average.

Edit to correct

[singsingsing]

Ursula, I admire your optimism, but don't most fundies have at least a few 'normal' family members? I mean the Duggars have cousin Amy, she who dates (constantly), kisses before marriage, was conceived out of wedlock and is her parents' only child. Michelle has a lesbian sister - and in fact, I don't think any of her family members buy into fundamentalism. Anna Duggar has, what is it now? Three siblings who have rejected fundamentalism? The Bates family has a whole gaggle of relatives who don't seem to be fundies. Melanie Maxwell's siblings are all 'normal'. The list goes on. I hope for Alyssa's sake, and her child's sake, that she can get away from fundamentalism, but I'm definitely not about to get excited because she's wearing pants and one of her in-laws only has three kids.

[anjulibai]

All 3 girls in the front are wearing shorts - don't most quiverfullers require skirts on girls?

[SassyPants]

Is it common to use ATI curriculum but be more mainstream Christian?

I notice that AW's MIL has short hair and knees that are showing- are these folks not Gothardites?

[halcionne]

halcionne! You're always so good at sleuthing out info on these fundie families and I'm interested in the composition of the Webster family. It's six kids, and from what I can tell, either five boys and one girl or four boys and two girls. I think all but one of them are married (Tori Webster is still single, and is either the youngest or second youngest, I think). I'm also curious whether it would be possible to find out when the married Webster kids got hitched and how old their spouses were/are.

The reason I'm curious is THIS PICTURE

[attachment=0]webstergrandspawn.jpg[/attachment]

Pictured here is Taliban Dan, Wife of Taliban Dan and their 11 (so far) grandchildren. Now, I'm assuming based on what those kiddos are wearing that they are colour coded to their sibling group. This is VERY intriguing to me because the three in the back, the oldest three, in red...ARE ONLY THREE. THREE! What quiverfucked family has only THREE blessings? Granted something horrible could have happened to the mother during her third pregnancy that left her infertile, but it could also be the parents of those three decided three was enough! The other sibling groups are harder to place.

Allie is being held by Taliban Dan, that's easy enough to tell. Wife of Taliban Dan is holding the daughter of Olivia (great-niece of Got-Hard) and Jordan Webster, so far their only child as well, and another baby girl. I don't know if other baby girl is the youngest sibling to the two boys on the left or the three girls on the right. The two girls on the right dressed in white shirts and shorts are most likely siblings and not cousins because they look very much alike but I'm not sure about the older girl behind them, who seems to be wearing a darker coloured shirt, so she could be sister to the two boys on the left who are wearing black/dark navy.

But regardless of sibling groupings and what have you, it's clear that Alyssa now has sibling-in-laws who CLEARLY SPACE PREGNANCIES and possibly STOPPED THEM ALL TOGETHER AFTER ONLY THREE.

That to me is FAR more of a big deal than her wearing pants and tank-tops. Alyssa will most likely always be anti-choice and a raging homophobe. But if her and John are influenced by their siblings/sibling-in-laws to MAKE FEWER CHILDREN over the course of the next 20+ years Alyssa is fertile, meaning one less anti-choice, homophobic child brought up in this shitshow, I consider that a win.

I do realize Alyssa is still very, VERY young with lots of fertile years ahead of her. Her sister-in-laws with fewer kids could have gotten married much older and three kids is all they were "blessed" with before their ovaries said NO MORE. But I can hope it was an intentional choice on those couple's parts and that it rubs off on Alyssa and John!

I found John Webster's siblings in Florida voter registration records, which are public. They have common names, so I'm not 100% sure I got the right individuals and spouses, but I'm pretty confident because of the locations.

Red shirts belong to David (Jan 76) and Angela (Mar 68) Webster. As you can see, she is nine years older than him. I guess the kids' ages as 15, 13, and 11 in 2015. I don't know their names (some kids I found named on a Bates tumblr; idr which one, but probably the big one).

Black shirts are the children of Brent (Dec 77) and Regina (Dec 74) Webster. Grant, Ellie, and the small boy I estimate are 7, 5, and 3 (whoops they are clearly older than that, judging by this picture!). I have maiden name Jones and wedding date of Feb 20, 1999 for Regina.

White shirts are the children of Joe (1985ish is my tentative guess) and Elizabeth (Oct 87) Miller; they live in Illinois. Hmm. I'm guessing the oldest girl is 4 this year; Chloe was 2 in December and Katie Grace was born in February. My fundie senses are tingling with this family. Wedding date May 15, 2010.

Navy shirted baby belongs to Jordan (July 85) and Olivia (1991? idk) Webster-- Olivia Eileen, born in December. Their wedding was March 29, 2014.

John (Nov 89) and Alyssa (Nov 94) had Allie Jane in April, as you will recall. Married May 24, 2014.

There's also SAHD, Tori (June 94). I often see her in Sarah Johnson's Gothard HQ pictures, which had slipped my mind: reaching-a-higher-call.blogspot.com/

Brent and David are much older than the other sibs. Are Elizabeth, Jordan, John, and Tori reversal babies? I'm inclined to think they are, and that the two older brothers are less fundie. I'm on the fence about John and Alyssa, because I agree that clothing choices could be significant, or not. I don't really care what people wear as long as they're not trying to legislate my private life, which I guess John and Alyssa aren't, for now.

I have most of these people's exact dates of birth, but I'm leaving them out for now as a tiny courtesy.

Is it common to use ATI curriculum but be more mainstream Christian?

I notice that AW's MIL has short hair and knees that are showing- are these folks not Gothardites?

They are the worst kind of Gothardites; the ones who present as mainstream Christians while trying to influence politics. Dan Webster represents Florida's 10th District in Congress. http://webster.house.gov/ He and his wife go on the campaign trail every two years, so they have to look relatively normal to appeal to their constituents. I know nothing about the political environment in his district, but he won the seat in 2010 and had state office for decades before that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_We ... politician)

I read here that John was homeschooled with ATI. We have photographic evidence of Tori doing IBLP stuff in Chicago. According to his wikipedia article, his most significant Florida legislation was the first bill he wrote, which made homeschooling legal in Florida in 1985. His kids would've been nine and seven years old at the time. Why did he feel so strongly about homeschooling? His kids were school age; did somebody in the family have a negative experience? We can almost pinpoint the moment he got onboard with IBLP. AND! IBLP is mentioned in the wiki!

I tend to use Occam's razor as a guide when I look at evidence; how does one prove ties to Gothard that can meet journalistic standards of proof? This shit upsets me and then I rant and use a lot of hyperbole. Apparently the incumbent he defeated to go to Washington is the same way, because he's behind the "Taliban Dan" ad that backfired and maybe cost him the election. Disclaimer: I haven't looked too deeply into that story and could be mistaken about the particulars.

editted for clarity

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Tori is born in 94? Wow she looks so much older! She's the tall blonde women right?

I thought she was 30 at least.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Does anyone remember how Alyssa met John? Is there a story behind it?

[singsingsing]

John said he met Alyssa at a mutual friend's wedding (can't remember which friend, sorry) and was instantly interested in her, but at that point did not realize how young she was. Then I think Alyssa volunteered for one of his dad's campaigns.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Hmm I thought maybe they met on a mission, or she met his sisters? But I wasn't sure so thanks for letting me know.

[halcionne]

Hmm I thought maybe they met on a mission, or she met his sisters? But I wasn't sure so thanks for letting me know.

I poked around the Bateses' official blog and Kelly said the Bates daughters made friends with John's brother Jordan first, on a mission trip. thebatesfamily.com/night-on-the-town/ Kelly answers a reader question near the bottom of the page.

As for Tori W's age, my notes say 6/16/94, but I don't have a source.

[Luisainlondon1]

Thanks Halcionne.

Tori looks much older than 20 or 21. in most pictures she seems to wear not too short skirts.

bates-family-photos.tumblr.com/post/62374330057/webster-family

[Ursula]

HALCIONNE!! :worship: :clap: :worship: :clap: Thank you for finding all this info!

Ursula, I admire your optimism, but don't most fundies have at least a few 'normal' family members? I mean the Duggars have cousin Amy, she who dates (constantly), kisses before marriage, was conceived out of wedlock and is her parents' only child. Michelle has a lesbian sister - and in fact, I don't think any of her family members buy into fundamentalism. Anna Duggar has, what is it now? Three siblings who have rejected fundamentalism? The Bates family has a whole gaggle of relatives who don't seem to be fundies. Melanie Maxwell's siblings are all 'normal'. The list goes on. I hope for Alyssa's sake, and her child's sake, that she can get away from fundamentalism, but I'm definitely not about to get excited because she's wearing pants and one of her in-laws only has three kids.

Oh absolutely, but I think it's more significant that a few of those normal family members are Taliban Dan's children, John's own brothers, as opposed to a niece/nephew and cousin. The older two seemingly NOT quiverfucked men are still John's brothers, raised in the same home, and although they're much older, I hope John looks to them for influence in some ways. Alyssa has been shown to be close to the family of Brent and Regina. I believe those kids were featured on a BUB episode where they visited her home and she made them cookies with packaged cookie dough. Alyssa has also posed a few instagrams with her sister-in-law Regina. Based on the ages of the oldest couple, I'd say it's likely natural fertility limiting the quiver to three (the woman being nine years older is strange even in completely secular circles!) but if Brent and Regina got married in 1999, when Regina was only 24, and didn't have their first kiddo for SEVERAL years, but ended up with three anyway so it was unlikely (though not impossible) to be a fertility issue, I'm thinking birth control and lots of it. I really hope that's something Regina can gently introduce to Alyssa.

Also holy crap at Tori Webster being just barely 21. I thought she was only slightly younger than John....or older :?

[halcionne]

HALCIONNE!! :worship: :clap: :worship: :clap: Thank you for finding all this info!

Oh absolutely, but I think it's more significant that a few of those normal family members are Taliban Dan's children, John's own brothers, as opposed to a niece/nephew and cousin. The older two seemingly NOT quiverfucked men are still John's brothers, raised in the same home, and although they're much older, I hope John looks to them for influence in some ways. Alyssa has been shown to be close to the family of Brent and Regina. I believe those kids were featured on a BUB episode where they visited her home and she made them cookies with packaged cookie dough. Alyssa has also posed a few instagrams with her sister-in-law Regina. Based on the ages of the oldest couple, I'd say it's likely natural fertility limiting the quiver to three (the woman being nine years older is strange even in completely secular circles!) but if Brent and Regina got married in 1999, when Regina was only 24, and didn't have their first kiddo for SEVERAL years, but ended up with three anyway so it was unlikely (though not impossible) to be a fertility issue, I'm thinking birth control and lots of it. I really hope that's something Regina can gently introduce to Alyssa.

Also holy crap at Tori Webster being just barely 21. I thought she was only slightly younger than John....or older :?

It was fun putting that together. I don't remember analyzing it so closely when I first added them to my spreadsheet. I noticed a couple of typos in my wall o'text: the rules of basic arithmetic mean that Angela 68 is eight years older than David 76, and Olivia's baby is Laura Eileen, not Olivia Eileen. >.<

Taliban Dan's wikipedia entry used this article as a source linking him to IBLP. Looking over the article, I recalled that 2010 was one of those "throw out all the incumbents!" election years and I wondered if Dan was riding the tea party train, but no, he's a career politician who has been doing his thing in Florida since 1980 and is probably well known in his area. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Alan Grayson, who he beat in 2010 after Grayson called him Taliban Dan, ran and won in a neighboring district in 2012. I bet it's awkward when they pass each other in the hallway. :D

I would love to hear more about what Grayson thinks of Webster and IBLP. :?

[Formosa]

Red shirts belong to David (Jan 76) and Angela (Mar 68) Webster. As you can see, she is nine years older than him. I guess the kids' ages as 15, 13, and 11 in 2015. I don't know their names (some kids I found named on a Bates tumblr; idr which one, but probably the big one).

Black shirts are the children of Brent (Dec 77) and Regina (Dec 74) Webster. Grant, Ellie, and the small boy I estimate are 7, 5, and 3 (whoops they are clearly older than that, judging by this picture!). I have maiden name Jones and wedding date of Feb 20, 1999 for Regina.

White shirts are the children of Joe (1985ish is my tentative guess) and Elizabeth (Oct 87) Miller; they live in Illinois. Hmm. I'm guessing the oldest girl is 4 this year; Chloe was 2 in December and Katie Grace was born in February. My fundie senses are tingling with this family. Wedding date May 15, 2010.

Navy shirted baby belongs to Jordan (July 85) and Olivia (1991? idk) Webster-- Laura Eileen, born in December. Their wedding was March 29, 2014.

John (Nov 89) and Alyssa (Nov 94) had Allie Jane in April, as you will recall. Married May 24, 2014.

There's also SAHD, Tori (June 94). I often see her in Sarah Johnson's Gothard HQ pictures, which had slipped my mind: reaching-a-higher-call.blogspot.com/

Brent and David are much older than the other sibs. Are Elizabeth, Jordan, John, and Tori reversal babies? I'm inclined to think they are, and that the two older brothers are less fundie. I'm on the fence about John and Alyssa, because I agree that clothing choices could be significant, or not. I don't really care what people wear as long as they're not trying to legislate my private life, which I guess John and Alyssa aren't, for now.

I have most of these people's exact dates of birth, but I'm leaving them out for now as a tiny courtesy.

editted for clarity

David and Angela's children are Jonathan, Sarah and Benjamin. The are NOT mainstream at all, even though they wear shorts and there are only three kids. Angela and Sarah have Pinterest, some sample board names are: "godly people I admire", "favorite bible verses", "creation vs evolution" "evolution vs god", tons of homeschool boards and bible verses in the descriptions.

Brent and Regina's youngest son is Carson.

I think Elizabeth's oldest daughter is Claire. Her husband has ATI connections as well.

[halcionne]

David and Angela's children are Jonathan, Sarah and Benjamin. The are NOT mainstream at all, even though they wear shorts and there are only three kids. Angela and Sarah have Pinterest, some sample board names are: "godly people I admire", "favorite bible verses", "creation vs evolution" "evolution vs god", tons of homeschool boards and bible verses in the descriptions.

Brent and Regina's youngest son is Carson.

I think Elizabeth's oldest daughter is Claire. Her husband has ATI connections as well.

Woo more names on my spreadsheet, thanks! :dance:

And this is why the neverending "are they or aren't they fundie" question sometimes gets on my nerves. There's a spectrum of fundiehood and Free Jinger discusses folks that are pretty damn close to the fundiest end of the spectrum. So somebody starts wearing shorter skirts or pants and maybe they've inched a little bit away from the extreme end of the spectrum, but they could still be way out there. My own mother was a bit of an extremist and if she had any say about it, she probably would've loved to see OT law become the law of the land, but she still wore pants and sent me to public school. She didn't even go to church much, but the outgoing message on her answering machine was a variation of Steve Maxwell's "do you know where you'll go when you die" bullshit. :angry-banghead: Sorry for the rant. :D

[RosyDaisy]

Until Alyssa and John leave Gothardism , there is nothing that will convince me that they have left fundamentalism. Same goes for any other fundie. Wardrobe changes are not an indicator. If anything it's a tactic to lure others in.

[SnazzyNazzy]

Until Alyssa and John leave Gothardism , there is nothing that will convince me that they have left fundamentalism. Same goes for any other fundie. Wardrobe changes are not an indicator. If anything it's a tactic to lure others in.

I agree that they are probably still fundie, though I think her "mainstream transformation", has more to do with her FIL being a politician, than anything else. Public image and all that jazz.

[Lhartsell89]

[16strong]

Alyssa looks adorable in her jeans, but I don't know how she's coping. Skinny jeans in that heat and humidity? Girlfriend, get some shorts.

[Lemchop]

Forget the pants, who are those women wearing the exact same shirt, glasses, hairstyle, and nearly identical skirts?! Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's actually the same person...

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Forget the pants, who are those women wearing the exact same shirt, glasses, hairstyle, and nearly identical skirts?! Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's actually the same person...

Lol it's two pics, both with Alyssa in them.

[justmy2cents]

Forget the pants, who are those women wearing the exact same shirt, glasses, hairstyle, and nearly identical skirts?! Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's actually the same person...

Looks like the same friend...maybe it's just the lighting?

[halcionne]

Looks like the same friend...maybe it's just the lighting?

It looks like two friends dressed to match for some reason. Alyssa and Allie match them too, just not identically.

ETA: it's definitely two friends; she tagged them.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Oh my gosh I didn't even notice. That is pretty weird.

[justmy2cents]

It looks like two friends dressed to match for some reason. Alyssa and Allie match them too, just not identically.

ETA: it's definitely two friends; she tagged them.

Now I see that the hair is parted on opposite sides so not the same person. Sure do look similar though.