Lina Is Back!

[Beeks]

Totally unnecessary - Lina and TT are incredibly self-absorbed, and I doubt they'll actually engage with the Orthodox community in their area because they're so into being special and different from others.

Actually, she has said numerous times that they plan to go through an orthodox conversion at some point.

[masagoroll]

I just noticed that Lina UNIRONICALLY has that Pat Robertson quote in her sidebar! You know, this one:

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."

- Pat Robertson

LOOOOOOL!

I don't understand Lina. I feel like a lot of fundies, such as "Latisha", are just very, very stupid, so stupid that I can't even bear to read their blogs. Lina is not dumb, so why does she believe such stupid things? And why does she want to be such a special snowflake all the time? And why does she make poor life choices like a submissive marriage started from a Facebook courtship with Taliban Tony? WTF?

[keeperrox]

Does anyone else think she just wants an audience for all her wedding posts?

No, I think she wants her readers to send wedding presents.

Was she posting this whole time, but with password protection? It doesn't look like there is a gap in posts.

[Sweetpea1]

No, I think she wants her readers to send wedding presents.

Was she posting this whole time, but with password protection? It doesn't look like there is a gap in posts.

I think it was password protected or you had to have an invite. There's a post on there about how there would be more pics because the blog was private.

[fundiefan]

Lina is an unsatisfied Christian who thinks Judaism is her answer while Anna T. is an unsatisfied Jew who thinks fundie Christianity is the answer.

Neither can make any of it work because they can't get past themselves enough to actually believe or follow anything.

I'm really glad that I don't need religion to define me or give me purpose.

[treemom]

Why? I've never discussed this with my Jewish friends because it's never come up, but we don't discuss religion much because none of us are super observant in any of our religious beliefs. But -- yeah. Why? I know that Jews, as a rule, don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but is that such a fundamental tenant of the religion that you simply cannot be Jewish if you believe differently? I don't want to offend here, but I guess I'm curious because there are all sorts of tenants of Christianity that I either don't believe or I'm very skeptical about, yet I sort of vaguely consider myself Christian (although others would not consider me so, but I tend to feel like those are the types of Christians I don't need to be friends with as a rule).

I have made that argument too. Do I think Lina qualifies and someone who does it respectfully? No. But I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

[treemom]

Here is an article from Aish about why Jews don't/can't believe in Jesus as the Jewish messiah: wwwDOTaish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

Take it with a grain of salt because Aish is VERY orthodox and can be annoying, but there are some good arguments in that article.

EDIT to break the link....I hope. I'm not very good at it.

But I alway point out some Jews did :). The other thing is, Jews don't even agree who and what = Jewish, just like Christians and pretty much every other religion. So if someone wants to self identify as both but doesn't put themselves out there as speaking for the traditional Jews or knowing more, and they do it with respect, I guess I just don't care.

[Beeks]

But I alway point out some Jews did :). The other thing is, Jews don't even agree who and what = Jewish, just like Christians and pretty much every other religion. So if someone wants to self identify as both but doesn't put themselves out there as speaking for the traditional Jews or knowing more, and they do it with respect, I guess I just don't care.

Show any Jewish person Lina's website and ask them if she's a Jew. Pretty sure the answer will be "hell no." Jews are not just like christians and every other religion because you can't just say "hey I'm a Jew!" and start practicing Judaism, the way you can with Protestant Christianity. There is a process you have to go through to become Jewish if you weren't born that way, and even though different denominations might do the process differently, I don't think anybody thinks you can just declare yourself Jewish and practice without a community. That is why Lina gets a giant fail from me....I don't think ANY actual Jewish person would consider her Jewish. We disagree amongst ourselves, sure, but that doesn't help Lina.

I'm talking about Judaism the religion more than the culture, btw.

edit: the reason Lina and "Jews for Jesus" really bother me is that they are trying to destroy a religion - a religion that millions of people have been tortured and died for. It's all done in a very sneaky way and that's what makes me so angry - they try to innocently assert that of COURSE Jesus is the logical conclusion to Judaism! Of COURSE you can be a Christian and a Jew! But this goes against some of the most fundamental beliefs of mainstream Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative and most Reform) and preys on Jews who are less informed.

I don't know how conniving Lina is, but the fact that she's already talking about trying to lie/trick her way into an orthodox community makes me think she's no better than other "undercover" Christians (aka messianic Jews) whose main goal is not to just practice what they believe, but is to convert Jews to Christianity.

[treemom]

But those processes differ, just like they do sighing Chrisitianity, which you have simplified.

I am not saying Lina is an example of this. I am just sayi as a Jew myself there is no reason that a Christian can't self identify as following the Jewish customs of the founders of their faith and therefore b a Jew. (a reminder that not all jews look like Jews or even have Jewish last names....:). I was born a Jew and would be now if I believed in a god.

[fundiefan]

Yes, I know that believing in Christ and practicing Judaism are not mutually exclusive. They are, however, two different religions that come with their own sets of 'ways'. Values, practices, traditions, etc. Believe what you need to and actually do believe. Don't take the traditions and values of one while being disrespectful of what you don't agree with.

It's not the belief I care about. Believe what you want. Just don't try to make over traditions and practices without respect for them.

Lina isn't called a fake Jew for nothing. She isn't discussed here because she is just living her beliefs. There is far more to it than belief.

[Beeks]

But those processes differ, just like they do sighing Chrisitianity, which you have simplified.

I am not saying Lina is an example of this. I am just sayi as a Jew myself there is no reason that a Christian can't self identify as following the Jewish customs of the founders of their faith and therefore b a Jew. (a reminder that not all jews look like Jews or even have Jewish last names....:). I was born a Jew and would be now if I believed in a god.

Well I agree with you if you're not talking about Lina. If somebody wants to call themselves Jewish because they had a reform conversion, that doesn't bother me in the same way Lina's crap does. Also, a Christian who says they want to follow Jewish customs is completely different. Lina is claiming to be "practicing Judaism" - which is a lie.

edit for riffles

[treemom]

Yes, I know that believing in Christ and practicing Judaism are not mutually exclusive. They are, however, two different religions that come with their own sets of 'ways'. Values, practices, traditions, etc. Believe what you need to and actually do believe. Don't take the traditions and values of one while being disrespectful of what you don't agree with.

It's not the belief I care about. Believe what you want. Just don't try to make over traditions and practices without respect for them.

Lina isn't called a fake Jew for nothing. She isn't discussed here because she is just living her beliefs. There is far more to it than belief.

I am not speaking of Lina. Or Anna or any of the fake Jews we discuss here. But I don't think in principal it is a problem. God knows that I and lots of Jews have hijacked Christian holidays too! I know I am not the only one who had a Christmas tree growing up. Or celebrated one of the many commercialized saint days.

So if someone wants to take it seriously because it makes them feel closer to their god and they aren't being a Jew for Jesus/Lina/the crazy people who went to costa rica/or Anna, well I as a Jew don't think it diminishes anything. When theyare asshats (see list above) well yes it is offensive.

[treemom]

I said from the beginning I was referring to the concept not Lina. In and of itself it is not a problem for me. Lina is, but mostly because she I'd an idiot. A real Jew who is an idiot annoys me too. And I have experienced those as well.

Lina and Anna and the rest of the crazies bother me mostly because they are attempting to out Jew the Jews.

[treemom]

Beeks you edited while I was posting but I do agree, lying, conversion attempts, these things bother me as well. You will notice I mentioned Jews for Jesus in my post as well.

[Beeks]

Beeks you edited while I was posting but I do agree, lying, conversion attempts, these things bother me as well. You will notice I mentioned Jews for Jesus in my post as well.

Yes, I think we essentially agree. I also agree that people who are born Jewish can be just as idiotic/offensive/annoying as Lina.

[FaustianSlip]

I think that's what rankles at me about her the most. I studied for years, I worked my butt off and she's.... she's playing at it and it upsets me.

This. This, this, this. I busted my ass for years to be Jewish, and I know so many Orthodox converts and converts in progress who have gone through the mill to be accepted as Jews by their community, and every time some jagoff like Lina turns up, every time someone like her fleeces the conversion system (and it happens sometimes, even in Orthodox communities, though you won't hear them talk about it much, because it's a gigantic embarrassment when it does), it casts doubt on every other convert. People like her are part of the reason that the Orthodox conversion system is so screwed up and adversarial, it's part of the reason frum converts have a hell of a time finding people to marry... because in a number of places (not all, but a significant portion), there's this fear that the person in question is going to backslide and stop being observant or was never really committed to Orthodoxy in the first place, and converted for ulterior motives. Lina knows this, because numerous people have told her this, but she doesn't care. She wants to playact at being Jewish, so dammit, that's what she'll do, and screw any other people she'll be hurting as a result of her actions. It really riles me, because as other people have said, she can claim to respect this religion as much as she wants, but none of her actions indicate that. It is like she's LARPing Fiddler on the Roof or something.

As far as being Jewish and believing in Jesus, sure you can. If your mom was Jewish or you converted, but you end up deciding that Jesus is really The One after all, you're still Jewish. You are no longer, however, practicing Judaism at that point. Certainly not when you start rewriting the Seder to be all Jesus-y or rewriting Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah services. I mean, I can't start going to mosque, or incorporating stuff from the Muslim prayer service into my Shabbat services and still claim that what I'm doing is normative Judaism, and Islam actually has fewer "problems," from a religious standpoint, than Christianity, because it doesn't introduce the whole concept of the Trinity, which, halachically-speaking, is considered polytheism if you're Jewish (if you're Christian, it's not, which is a whole other can of worms). The way Jesus is portrayed in Christianity and in the New Testament is just completely inconsistent with fundamental Jewish beliefs regarding G-d, who is incorporeal and indivisible. These are really, really basic things; I don't personally get how you can say (and claim to believe) the Shema, on one hand, and then turn around and say you believe the New Testament on the other.

Now, are there going to be people who say that they're Christian and Jewish? Sure. Just like there are people who say they're Buddhist and Jewish, or Wiccan and Jewish, but again, there are major compatibility issues at some really basic levels there, and while the Jew Police aren't likely to show up and yank off your yarmulke, I think that's the point at which you're no longer practicing normative Judaism. I do think there's a bigger taboo when it comes to Christianity and Judaism because of the history there, but there has been a major push by various Christian groups, including the Southern Baptists, to evangelize to Jewish communities (particularly Orthodox ones, but not only); people in places like Monsey and Flatbush have been getting DVDs about Jesus and Christianity that are disguised to look like material from Jewish charities. Missionaries have started turning up in Jewish areas in greater numbers. It's pretty gross, and whatever they might say, I definitely think that that's part of Lina and Anthony's plan, especially given that he used to work for a Messianic organization. It's not just Christians trying out a Seder to see what it's like; it's an organized, full-scale push to convert as many Jews as possible by whatever means possible, including outright deceit, and that's why I take such issue with it.

I also see very little respect shown for Jewish ritual objects; I remember seeing a video on that Messianic screw-ups Tumblr that someone had of some stupid dance routine at a Messianic congregation where they were waving talleisim around and dragging them on the ground. Really? You "love" and "respect" this religion so much that you're using sacred objects as cheap dance props and dragging them on the frigging ground? Thanks, but that kind of love and respect, I can do without.

[let-them-eat-cake]

I think it was password protected or you had to have an invite. There's a post on there about how there would be more pics because the blog was private.

It was invite-only and she kept posting. And not very interesting posts I might add. But I have hope she'll be divulging more now that their wedding draws near.

[onlyorganic]

Okay, so I don't get this about Lina... where DID her beliefs come from? She is constantly changing things up, using one spelling one day, another on another day, I don't get her. I almost want to think she was interested in learning about the SAHD lifestyle, got into Christianity and it wasn't extreme enough in regards to the kind of dominion she was looking for. Forgive me, I know barely anything about Orthodox Judaism, only it seems like what Lina believes changes on a daily basis and is a little bit of a Shoney's buffet in regards to Christianity and Judaism. She picks and chooses things she likes, things she wants to "challenge herself" with. I checked out her older blog entries awhile back and it seems like she goes through various interests, at one point she was on a completely raw diet... the next, completely kosher. I think it's funny because she writes in a preachy know-all tone, yet she seems a bit lost in the wilds of being an Orthodox Jew. I find the headcovering sale on her blog so strange. It seems more for Muslim women who follow The Koran and traditional laws of covering one's head. I remember one post where Lina was actually talking about being embarrassed to go out in public with a headcovering! *Sigh* it's just strange. I feel like she and AJ play at being Jewish yet they don't really know what it's all about. Part of learning is being humble to admit you don't know everything and I haven't seem either of them do that...

[defrauding]

I am just sayi as a Jew myself there is no reason that a Christian can't self identify as following the Jewish customs of the founders of their faith and therefore b a Jew. (a reminder that not all jews look like Jews or even have Jewish last names....:). I was born a Jew and would be now if

I believed in a god.

The reason is that Judaism isn't just a religion: I like the description of Judaism on Jewfaq.org as an "extended family." To be considered Christian, you simply need to believe that Jesus is your personal lord and savior. To be considered Jewish, on the other hand, you have to be recognized as such by a normative Jewish community.

Also, candycane, I considered contacting the batei din in her area and warning them as well -- not because of Lina, necessarily, but because Anthony still appears to be affiliated with that abominable First Fruits of Zion ministry. I suspect that oscar's right, though, and they won't actually try for an Orthodox conversion: can you imagine these two actually learning Hebrew, for example?

[FaustianSlip]

The irony to me is that the one community that might conceivably take a position of, "Sure, say you're Jewish, and you're Jewish," is also the most liberal- namely, the Jewish Renewal movement, which I suspect Lina would reject out of hand, as they don't consider halacha binding (as a general rule- there might be Renewal folks who are halachically observant). I think even Renewal, though, would reject the idea that you can accept Christian theology as true and still be practicing Judaism in any normative way. Though they're pretty open to anything, so maybe not.

[demgirl]

I think this discussion opens some interesting questions. What is a "normative" religious community? Who gets to decide if you meet the qualifications for that religion? I'm not very comfortable with anyone or any community having the power to tell someone they do or do not meet the qualifications for a specific religion. Saying you don't meet the qualifications to be considered a believer in a particular church or particular sect is one thing, but saying you don't belive X or you do believe Y, so you can't be Jewish, or Christian or whatever... there's something about that I find difficult to accept. i.e. while I think it's valid for a temple or a church to say to someone that his/her beliefs do not qualify them for membership, I don't know that I like the idea that the community could say that it also doesn't qualify them to consider themselves Jewish or Christian in a broader sense.

I'm not talking about LIna, by the way -- I'm talking in a broader sense. There are examples besides people who identify as Jewish but believe Jesus was the Messiah. Like Mormons, who self-identify as Christian, but believe Jesus was a man.

Why does the Jewish community get to decide who is Jewish? That's what I have trouble understanding. It seems uncomfortably close to fundie Christians deciding who is Christian and who is a pharisee. Again, I really don't want to offend. I'm just trying to understand because this is the first time I've really thought about this and I'm coming up with some confusion.

[Witsec6]

The reason is that Judaism isn't just a religion: I like the description of Judaism on Jewfaq.org as an "extended family." To be considered Christian, you simply need to believe that Jesus is your personal lord and savior. To be considered Jewish, on the other hand, you have to be recognized as such by a normative Jewish community.

Also, candycane, I considered contacting the batei din in her area and warning them as well -- not because of Lina, necessarily, but because Anthony still appears to be affiliated with that abominable First Fruits of Zion ministry. I suspect that oscar's right, though, and they won't actually try for an Orthodox conversion: can you imagine these two actually learning Hebrew, for example?

Christians certainly do have to be recognized by their Christian community, just as Jews have to.

In my Orthodox Christian community (and actually in all "mainline" Christian denominations), baptism plays a key role in being a Christian. There is also a point where a person becomes confirmed in the faith. In Orthodoxy that happens the day a baby is baptised, but in other denominations this happens at an older age (Catholics have first communion, Anglicans have Confirmation). I certainly don't like people running around declaring themselves to be "Christians" who have not undergone these rituals any more than you guys like Lina's brand of "Judaism".

( That being said, I do not think that the "Fake" Christians who have not had these rituals performed are somehow going to hell any more than I believe that ANYONE is going to hell. I think God's grace is a lot bigger than that. I just don't want them to apropriate my religion and culture in the name of their strange belief systems)

Anyway, Lina is a fake Jew. I agree. I find her idea of "sneaking into" Orthodox Judaism to be absolutely reprehensible, and I feel for any community who will have to deal with the fallout.

[FaustianSlip]

Why does the Catholic community have a right to decide who gets to take communion? Why does the Amish community get to decide who is a member? What about the LDS church? Why do they have a right to let some people into their temples and bar others?

It's not a question of locking someone out of a synagogue because they're not Jewish; anyone can attend services, but there are certain things (which can be a broader or narrower range depending on the community) for which you have to be Jewish if you wish to participate. These include, but are not limited to: counting in a minyan (a quorum of ten Jews needed to say certain prayers in the service), leading a service, making the blessing over wine or bread on behalf of other people at a meal, getting called up to give the blessings over the Torah, reading from the Torah during a service, going to a mikvah, wearing a tallis or tefillin. There are some other issues that can crop up in Orthodox circles, as well, but these are the major ones that are likely to come up anywhere, just off the top of my head.

The question of "Who is a Jew?" is a huge, controversial one right now for a number of reasons, and there are cases of conversions done in some communities not being recognized in others. My conversion wouldn't be considered "valid" in most Orthodox communities, because it was done by a Conservative beit din. Likewise, someone who is Jewish by virtue of their father being Jewish, which Reform Judaism allows, might not be considered such in a Conservative community, because we still hold by matrilineal descent only. It's an ongoing issue, and Judaism, being a community religion for which you pretty much have to have other people to fulfill a large number of obligations, means that if you're going to be Jewish, you need to be a part of a Jewish community. That means finding a community in which you feel comfortable, going through their process for conversion and being accepted by them as a fellow Jew. This is how it has pretty much always been; there is disagreement amongst the denominations about the details of what constitutes a valid beit din (religious court) and so on, but pretty much every movement in Judaism concurs that you must undergo some kind of formalized process of reflection and study, culminating in a lifecycle event of some kind, in order to join the Tribe. This isn't unique to Judaism, incidentally; I don't know of a Christian denomination that doesn't practice baptism in some capacity, or a Muslim community that doesn't have reverts say the Shahada as a way of formalizing their decision to become Muslim.

Which brings me to another point: Judaism is very different from Christianity in the sense that it is both a religion and an ethnicity. There is a tribal quality to Judaism that is largely absent from Christianity, and the result is that the dynamic of conversion is somewhat different. Additionally, if you are born Jewish or convert and become Jewish, it's for life. That's one of the reasons conversion takes so long; once you do it, there's no going back. You'll always be Jewish, even if you decide it's not for you and take off to go join the Hare Krishnahs or something. Even practicing Christianity won't "undo" your Jewishness, if you were Jewish to begin with, but that doesn't mean that what you're doing is Judaism, either. So sure, you can be Jewish and practice Christianity. You might not be a very good Jew, but you haven't lost your Jewish neshama, for lack of a better word.

The fact is that if you want to join a formal religion, any religion, that's going to come with some obligations and rules as to what is accepted and what is not. I posted an article back on the other board, I think, about an Episcopal priest who said that she was both Christian and Muslim; she'd offer up Communion as a priest, then go over to the mosque to do her five daily prayers. Is that appropriate? Is it normative to Christianity in general or Episcopalianism in particular? I would say that no, it's not. If that's what she wants to do, hey, that's up to her, but you can't just decide that you're going to take two different religions with two conflicting theologies, mash them together and say, "Oh, of course it's still Judaism/Christianity/Islam/Flying Spaghetti Monster-dom" and have anyone take you seriously.

I find Catholicism fascinating. I studied Church history throughout college and think the Traditional Latin Mass is a thing of beauty. But I can't just declare myself both Catholic and Jewish, show up at a TLM, start taking communion out of the blue and wear a kippah and tallis and expect people not to think that's inappropriate or offensive. It just doesn't work that way. Likewise, if I rolled up into Shabbat services with a big crucifix on and started saying the rosary while everyone else is trying to say the Shema, it would be a little absurd for me to act all offended when people give me weird looks or tell me that they find that inappropriate. Sometimes, you just have to choose. And if you want to be Jewish and join an existing Jewish community, the whole Yeshua thing isn't going to fly. If you want to appropriate Jewish symbols for your Christian rituals, you should probably assume that some people are going to find that offensive, particularly if you're using those symbols as dance props or kitschy accessories.

Oh, and I won't even get started on the offensiveness of, "Well, your symbols and ritual objects are really quaint and enjoyable, and I'm definitely going to borrow those, but you're totally going to Hell anyway, since you don't think Jesus was the Messiah." Because ultimately, that's what people like Lina and other Messianic groups are saying.

[FaustianSlip]

And Defrauding, I thought the same thing, but I don't know whether it would fall under the category of lashon hora or not. I also agree that I'm not sure she'd actually pursue an Orthodox conversion, and if she did, I'm not sure either of them would get very far. Lina and Anthony are in love with their idea of what Orthodoxy is, but they want to playact Yiddishkeit on their own terms, and I suspect it's only cool as long as they get to do whatever they heck they want. I don't think they'd react well to having to conform to the norms of an actual community and being told that they're doing something wrong or that the community doesn't do XY or Z. And most Orthodox batei din these days are insisting that prospective converts move to Chicago, New York or LA, in order to be able to integrate into a large, Orthodox community. I don't know that anyone would agree to convert them in Texas.

[let-them-eat-cake]

Lina was eager to get into the good graces with the Dixon family but then her and....Jocelyn (I think?) had a falling out of some kind. Anyways, that was where I think it started.

She admires people like http://www.youtube.com/user/RaYBaSHKatan and http://www.youtube.com/user/aroodawakening

Eventually, she got deeper into Judaism than even the average Messianic.