Lina Is Back!

[Beeks]

Yeah, that is crazy to me Treemom because we have redheads in our family and nobody has gotten any crap about it as far as I know...but then again we have lived most of our lives in very very Jewish areas, so there are all kinds of "looks." There were even asian and African American families at our old (conservative/conservadox) shul and nobody ever batted an eye.

Now that I'm in a place with very few Jews I think I feel more protective of my Judaism. In LA it was never questioned because it seemed like everyone was Jewish, but here it's weird and I feel like an outsider and like people wish we'd just conform and come to their Christmas parties, etc.

I've never met anybody who just HONESTLY believes that they are both Jewish and believe in Jesus the messiah, who have no ulterior motives and just want to live their own faith. It always seems like they are throwing in the Judaism to win converts; that's what bothers me.

[anniebgood]

I think it also depends on where you are. Here in the south there is an expectation that Jew =X. And my parents have complicated issues. I have had people inist that since my parents converted when I was a child to be a real, real Jew I have to go through the conversion process.

Again Lina is an asshat, but I also feel strongly in letting people self identify. Let's criticize them for their actions...the lying, the disrespect for religions items, the mangling Seder etc. But I would like to avoid saying you can't be a real Jew if you aren't X.

BTW How's the Buddhist son doing? Has he settled into middle school?

[treemom]

BTW How's the Buddhist son doing? Has he settled into middle school?

Doing good. He is doing well in middle school. Making new friends and stuff. It has been sort of madness because my new job started just a coupled of days before his new school started and the new routine threw us off. My house is finally cleanish to a level that I don't want to hide my head when I get home.

But thanks for asking. I have trimmed back on the fb posts about him because he asked me too. Too many parents of his friends and it was embarrassing him :)

[treemom]

And in my reform congregation, id bet my wad, my Rabbi would likely say you're fine. My husbands best friend had a similar struggle to yours. Also in the south. And he's no longer practicing either. Gee I wonder why.

My experience is that rabbis and those who know stuff have no problem. Those who just need to be more special than me have said some rude stuff. However that isn't the reason I am not practicing. An individual specific faith isn't important to my husband and I. And as my faith in a god waned I really just retained the parts of being a Jew I like. Just like christians do :).

[treemom]

Yeah, that is crazy to me Treemom because we have redheads in our family and nobody has gotten any crap about it as far as I know...but then again we have lived most of our lives in very very Jewish areas, so there are all kinds of "looks." There were even asian and African American families at our old (conservative/conservadox) shul and nobody ever batted an eye.

Now that I'm in a place with very few Jews I think I feel more protective of my Judaism. In LA it was never questioned because it seemed like everyone was Jewish, but here it's weird and I feel like an outsider and like people wish we'd just conform and come to their Christmas parties, etc.

I've never met anybody who just HONESTLY believes that they are both Jewish and believe in Jesus the messiah, who have no ulterior motives and just want to live their own faith. It always seems like they are throwing in the Judaism to win converts; that's what bothers me.

If I converted I don't think it would have been a problem. But since I "claim" as one Jewish friend put it to me that I don't need to since I was born to a practing mother and raised by practicing grandparents I don't need to. But my lack of conversion seems to make people feel I am not authentic. But hey...it isnt exactly persecution. Most religions have these one true Scotsman arguments.

[FaustianSlip]

Re:Judaism and Buddhism? You are wrong. They are not inconsistent at all. Buddhism has no requirement for a diety, but allows for one and Buddhist concepts can mesh with judaism. And other things.

I know this because as a Jew who is raising a son who felt called to Buddhist practice I spent a lot of time learning about it.

And as a Jew who studied both Judaism and Buddhism a great deal in college and in her own time, there are some inconsistencies and theological issues. Not as problematic as there are between Judaism and Christianity, but they're there. Here is one take from a Reform rabbi and another from an Orthodox perspective. Personally, I think the Orthodox one might be inflating the issues a bit, but that's not unusual (and it does do a good job explaining how differently Buddhism and Judaism look at the cycle of life and death and suffering). Personally, whatever, and the fact that your son prefers Buddhism doesn't change the fact that he's Jewish.

As for the comparison between Judaism and Christianity, can I say that Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet and still be Christian in a normative way? Would that be accepted by most Christian communities? I think not. Is anyone stopping me from saying I'm a Christian in that scenario? No, of course not. Not in most contexts, anyway, but would it be appropriate for me, holding those beliefs, to go to a Catholic church, never having been baptized, and take communion? No. I think most of us can agree that it would not. Would it be appropriate for me to sneak my way into a Mormon temple in that kind of situation? No, it would not. I'm having a tough time seeing why this is being treated as something new or weird. Every religion has entrance rituals for those who want to join. Every religion makes their own rules about who can and cannot participate in certain aspects of their worship services, who is and is not considered a coreligionist and who they will and will not marry, bury, et cetera. None of this is unique to Judaism at all. Yet for some reason, when someone looks at Messianic congregations or people like Lina and says, "Um... yeah, can't really do that and claim that you're practicing Judaism," it's seen as this shocking thing. Most people will agree that you can't make a sacrifice to Cthulu and still claim you're practicing Catholicism properly, either.

Also, the cultural appropriation. You know, I've always been really interested in Native American history, culture and religion. Since we're all so into self-identifying, it's cool if I just start telling people I'm Cherokee, right? I mean, that's how I feel. And I can start using dreamcatchers and build a sweat lodge and making kachina dolls and all, and make videos telling other people how to use them, and I'm sure that wouldn't offend anyone at all. Because we're just self-identifying. It's not like I'm doing anything wrong, and who are the Cherokees to say that I'm not one of them? They're just trying to keep other people down.

That, to me, is probably a better argument for what Lina's doing than the Christianity angle. And for good or ill, when I look at Lina doing her crap, or when I look at these Messianic congregations with their videos on YouTube, to me it's like seeing someone in blackface. It's an absurd, over exaggerated caricature of Judaism, complete with crappy Hebrew, making up the rules as they go along and improperly using ritual objects. It's a farce. They can say it's all about a philo-Semitic belief, and some of them probably are sincere, but in the end, about ninety percent of it looks like mockery. It doesn't help that the majority haven't read enough to know what the heck they're doing, what the symbology of the rituals actually are, et cetera.

If you want to live in a cave, away from society, and practice your own religion, knock yourself out. No one's going to care or tell you you're doing it wrong. But if you want to practice a religion that has existed in some capacity for thousands of years, one that necessitates a community to perform many of its most fundamental rituals, you're going to have to satisfy that community that you are in fact a member and that you do in fact have the status required to participate. This applies to Judaism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Islam... pretty much any religion. There's nothing unique to Judaism about this, except that it's Judaism these evangelicals are fetishizing and appropriating for their own conversion tactics and to "spice up" their own religion. I'm sorry, but my religion isn't just some accessory for you to use to dress up your worship of Jesus. A lot of people have died for those rituals, and yeah, I do find it offensive that you're stripping them of meaning so that you can LARP Yentl.

Oh, and outside of forums like this, I don't generally make a big production of the fact that I'm a convert, because it's really no one's business but my own. I don't look "typically Jewish" (whatever that means), and neither do a number of my Jewish friends. No one's ever tried to tell us we're not Jewish, and I'd tell anyone who did that they were supremely poorly-mannered (and apparently don't know anything about Jewish law, since it's forbidden to remind the convert that they're a convert in the first place). If someone tells me they're Jewish, I'm going to take their word for it, unless we're getting married or something.

[Guest Anonymous]

Did anyone notice this comment by Lina's Love on her "Guarding It" post? (Guarding It? Really? Is she talking about her hymen?)

"...all sorts of rationalizations and justifications..."

Well, Sweetheart! We must remember that you are the one that comes up with all of the creative and wonderful ideas on how we can implement the Mitzvot!! ;D

If it wasn't for you, Beautiful, we would hardly be able to implement half of what we should ;)

This is such an excellent post, Sweetheart! You write wonderfully!

Am I the only one who thinks it sounds disgustingly saccharine and fake as hell? Seriously, this guy is like a red flag factory.

[ElphabaGalinda]

And as a Jew who studied both Judaism and Buddhism a great deal in college and in her own time, there are some inconsistencies and theological issues. Not as problematic as there are between Judaism and Christianity, but they're there. Here is one take from a Reform rabbi and another from an Orthodox perspective. Personally, I think the Orthodox one might be inflating the issues a bit, but that's not unusual (and it does do a good job explaining how differently Buddhism and Judaism look at the cycle of life and death and suffering). Personally, whatever, and the fact that your son prefers Buddhism doesn't change the fact that he's Jewish.

As for the comparison between Judaism and Christianity, can I say that Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet and still be Christian in a normative way? Would that be accepted by most Christian communities? I think not. Is anyone stopping me from saying I'm a Christian in that scenario? No, of course not. Not in most contexts, anyway, but would it be appropriate for me, holding those beliefs, to go to a Catholic church, never having been baptized, and take communion? No. I think most of us can agree that it would not. Would it be appropriate for me to sneak my way into a Mormon temple in that kind of situation? No, it would not. I'm having a tough time seeing why this is being treated as something new or weird. Every religion has entrance rituals for those who want to join. Every religion makes their own rules about who can and cannot participate in certain aspects of their worship services, who is and is not considered a coreligionist and who they will and will not marry, bury, et cetera. None of this is unique to Judaism at all. Yet for some reason, when someone looks at Messianic congregations or people like Lina and says, "Um... yeah, can't really do that and claim that you're practicing Judaism," it's seen as this shocking thing. Most people will agree that you can't make a sacrifice to Cthulu and still claim you're practicing Catholicism properly, either.

Also, the cultural appropriation. You know, I've always been really interested in Native American history, culture and religion. Since we're all so into self-identifying, it's cool if I just start telling people I'm Cherokee, right? I mean, that's how I feel. And I can start using dreamcatchers and build a sweat lodge and making kachina dolls and all, and make videos telling other people how to use them, and I'm sure that wouldn't offend anyone at all. Because we're just self-identifying. It's not like I'm doing anything wrong, and who are the Cherokees to say that I'm not one of them? They're just trying to keep other people down.

That, to me, is probably a better argument for what Lina's doing than the Christianity angle. And for good or ill, when I look at Lina doing her crap, or when I look at these Messianic congregations with their videos on YouTube, to me it's like seeing someone in blackface. It's an absurd, over exaggerated caricature of Judaism, complete with crappy Hebrew, making up the rules as they go along and improperly using ritual objects. It's a farce. They can say it's all about a philo-Semitic belief, and some of them probably are sincere, but in the end, about ninety percent of it looks like mockery. It doesn't help that the majority haven't read enough to know what the heck they're doing, what the symbology of the rituals actually are, et cetera.

If you want to live in a cave, away from society, and practice your own religion, knock yourself out. No one's going to care or tell you you're doing it wrong. But if you want to practice a religion that has existed in some capacity for thousands of years, one that necessitates a community to perform many of its most fundamental rituals, you're going to have to satisfy that community that you are in fact a member and that you do in fact have the status required to participate. This applies to Judaism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Sikhism, Islam... pretty much any religion. There's nothing unique to Judaism about this, except that it's Judaism these evangelicals are fetishizing and appropriating for their own conversion tactics and to "spice up" their own religion. I'm sorry, but my religion isn't just some accessory for you to use to dress up your worship of Jesus. A lot of people have died for those rituals, and yeah, I do find it offensive that you're stripping them of meaning so that you can LARP Yentl.

Oh, and outside of forums like this, I don't generally make a big production of the fact that I'm a convert, because it's really no one's business but my own. I don't look "typically Jewish" (whatever that means), and neither do a number of my Jewish friends. No one's ever tried to tell us we're not Jewish, and I'd tell anyone who did that they were supremely poorly-mannered (and apparently don't know anything about Jewish law, since it's forbidden to remind the convert that they're a convert in the first place). If someone tells me they're Jewish, I'm going to take their word for it, unless we're getting married or something.

You said absolutely everything I was thinking perfectly, better than I could have....so I agree with you totally. You can believe what you want, but when it comes to actually doing things, you need to respect the rules and beliefs of the religion you are trying to participate in. That's what Lina (and every other Messanic person I have personally met or heard of), does that is wrong. Just like it would be wrong for me to go into a Catholic church and take communion, while never being baptized, fully admiting I don't believe in Jesus as the messiah and full out rejecting many core Catholic beliefs, it's wrong what people like Jews for Jesus do when they try to appropriate Jewish practices.

About not looking "typically" Jewish, I kinda do, but I have lots of family who doesn't, and they've never had anyone question their Jewishness. I guess because I live where there is a large Jewish community? Anyways, the fact that my grandfather has staight blonde hair and blue eyes, and therefore didn't "look Jewish", coupled with teh fact that his family had the money for fake documents is the reason he survived the Holocaust. So that what makes me dislike Lina, in particular. She wants to join an Orthodox Jewish community, but she thinks the beliefs of teh people in that community will send them straight to hell.

[demgirl]

I see what you're saying. I guess my thinking was more along the lines of Messianic Jews setting up their own community and religious organizations. If they did that, I don't understand why it would not be appropriate for that community to call itself "Jewish", albeit a different and new type of Judaism. I think there's a corollary with Mormonism and Christianity. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the Mormon church and I find the religion odd. But I have no issue with them setting up their own church, religous organization and community separate from Catholicism or Protestanism and still calling themselves "Christians."

[jenny_islander]

About a Christian studying traditional Jewish festivals in order to feel closer to Jesus--yes, I know of people who do that too, and they are extremely careful about getting it right, but they don't call themselves Jews. Both my former congregation (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) and my current one (Episcopal) hold a seder every year, but we are careful to specify to anyone who asks that it is not certified as correct in all points by a rabbi, although my former congregation carried the preparations to the point of sweeping the cupboards for crumbs of leavened bread. Both congregations do it as an anamnesis: recalling a memory to the present by performing actions connected with that memory. But it doesn't make us Jewish. Especially since we follow it with the rite of Holy Eucharist.

[treemom]

About a Christian studying traditional Jewish festivals in order to feel closer to Jesus--yes, I know of people who do that too, and they are extremely careful about getting it right, but they don't call themselves Jews. Both my former congregation (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) and my current one (Episcopal) hold a seder every year, but we are careful to specify to anyone who asks that it is not certified as correct in all points by a rabbi, although my former congregation carried the preparations to the point of sweeping the cupboards for crumbs of leavened bread. Both congregations do it as an anamnesis: recalling a memory to the present by performing actions connected with that memory. But it doesn't make us Jewish. Especially since we follow it with the rite of Holy Eucharist.

And that is fine. But I don't think feeling Jewish is an issue. If you are Lina and trying to trick people into thinking that you should be able to partake in a mikvah well you have issues.

But if you feel like you are following the Judaism if the apostles after Christ died, well really why can't you THINK that. We aren't talking about forcing yourself upon a religious entity we are talking about what people self identify as which doesn't mean a hill of beans to most religious institutions.

I am just quoting you but directing it to all really annoys me when people have to define me or my son. I honestly don't give a damn is buddhism is seen by this rabbi or that or by any Jew as inconsistent with Judaism. It isn't for me and it wasnt for my son. He doesn't have to prefer one to the other, they can complement. Just like his Christianart too. (my husband is episcopalian). He can have the cultural idenity of both his parents faiths as well and feeling like Buddhism is an equal partnersh in his Jewish practice. He can do that because it is how he FEELS. If it was an issue at a place of worship we just wouldnt fit.

It kills me the same way the term cafeteria catholic does. Why do we need to let someone determine what defines our personal faith? If you want to pick and choose because that is what you feel like practicing your personal faith is, who cares?

[ElphabaGalinda]

I see what you're saying. I guess my thinking was more along the lines of Messianic Jews setting up their own community and religious organizations. If they did that, I don't understand why it would not be appropriate for that community to call itself "Jewish", albeit a different and new type of Judaism. I think there's a corollary with Mormonism and Christianity. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the Mormon church and I find the religion odd. But I have no issue with them setting up their own church, religous organization and community separate from Catholicism or Protestanism and still calling themselves "Christians."

The problem with the communities they have set up is that they very sneakily try to get coverts by pretending to be something they're not. They try to claim membership to the old type of Judaism, and pretend like they are the only ones doing Judaism right, when they are in fact doing the opposite of what all sects of Judaism believe. In my experience, they are not trying to be seperate from mainstream Judaism, and that, I think, is the problem i have. So the way you explain it I probably wouldn't have a problem, but (in my experience, admitedly) Messianic Jews don't actually do it that way. If you could point me to specific examples where they did, sure that's fine. But the ones i have experienced are basically pretending to be a part of a community while secretly believing that whole community will go to hell. What people personally believe and how they personally identify is cool with me. I was just refering to Messianic Jewish communities, and what they do that i feel is wrong. If someone sincerley holds those beliefs, it's not wrong, it's just what they do.

[Beeks]

Did anyone notice this comment by Lina's Love on her "Guarding It" post? (Guarding It? Really? Is she talking about her hymen?)

Am I the only one who thinks it sounds disgustingly saccharine and fake as hell? Seriously, this guy is like a red flag factory.

No, you're not the only one. I don't know why she's with this loser...she's gorgeous and could do SO much better. UGH.

[FaustianSlip]

You said absolutely everything I was thinking perfectly, better than I could have....so I agree with you totally. You can believe what you want, but when it comes to actually doing things, you need to respect the rules and beliefs of the religion you are trying to participate in.

This is pretty much what it boils down to for me. Think of yourself however you want- of course no one's advocating brainwashing people or whatever, but if you're completely striking out on your own or attempting to completely change the historical and cultural norms of a religion (be it Judaism or anything else), you should anticipate pushback when you try to join a more normative and/or traditional community. And yeah, I do think religious communities have a right to set standards for membership, to some degree (and in saying that, I put myself in a position of being denied as Jewish by certain communities, so it's not like this doesn't affect me personally). It's fine to say, "Well, I consider myself XYZ," but when you're trying to gain entreé into a community, it's no longer just about you, but about the community of which you want to be a part. Choosing to affiliate with a particular religion means, by necessity, that you're excluding other religious practices, and people like Lina strike me as wanting to have their cake and eat it, too.

And to echo ElphabaGalinda, the Messianic communities I've seen are generally absolutely trying to pass them off as Jewish (as in traditionally, no Jesus-y Jewish), not Christian or some kind of hybrid. They argue that they are Jewish and that what they are doing is regular (if "fulfilled") Judaism or, to take a more condescending approach, Judaism as it should be practiced (y'know, since we apparently have a messiah now). I would hope that it's not really necessary to spell out why run-of-the-mill Jews would object to that and want to say, "Uh, no, you're not part of our crowd."

Edited to add that lest people assume that it's purely the Jesus angle with which I have a problem, I don't think the Lubavitchers who believe that their late rebbe (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) was/is the messiah are practicing normative Judaism, either. I wouldn't go to a meshichist rabbi, I probably wouldn't accept their hechsher on food I was going to eat, and I certainly wouldn't marry one. Because while the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a great guy with a lot of great spiritual insights, he has died, and he didn't accomplish the things the Jewish messiah is supposed to accomplish. The fact that some meshichists refer to him as G-d just makes it worse. So no, you can't believe that stuff and be on the same page as traditional, normative Judaism, either.

[NurseNell]

I may be wrong but it also helps to ensure that if she gets pregnant that it will be a boy. I can't remember where I read it but it does help get them closer to ovulation date than if they didn't follow that rule.

If a boy is born the couple can return to sex sooner than if a girl is born. I live in a Jewish neighborhood, and the Lubavitch's have this practice.

Nell

[treemom]

So neither dem girl or I are implying that joining a community should be allowed. We were simply saying one can self identify as a Jew and believe that Jesus was the messiah. (which does not nessatate a belief in the trinity)

Nor were we saying it is the same as traditional, normative Judaism.

Nor we were saying that all people who self identify that way are happy little bunnies who do no harm.

And not all religious communities expect you to exclude other religious practices. Unitarians in my experienc have a big spread...including in my local church a group of Jews who simply like the service and the inclusive nature of the church. And a couple of Muslims :). Plus lots of others including agnostics or atheists and traditional, normative Christians.

[oscar]

The problem with the communities they have set up is that they very sneakily try to get coverts by pretending to be something they're not. They try to claim membership to the old type of Judaism, and pretend like they are the only ones doing Judaism right, when they are in fact doing the opposite of what all sects of Judaism believe. In my experience, they are not trying to be seperate from mainstream Judaism, and that, I think, is the problem i have. So the way you explain it I probably wouldn't have a problem, but (in my experience, admitedly) Messianic Jews don't actually do it that way. If you could point me to specific examples where they did, sure that's fine. But the ones i have experienced are basically pretending to be a part of a community while secretly believing that whole community will go to hell. What people personally believe and how they personally identify is cool with me. I was just refering to Messianic Jewish communities, and what they do that i feel is wrong. If someone sincerley holds those beliefs, it's not wrong, it's just what they do.

I agree with your point on Messianic Jewish communities. Where I used to live, there were a lot of normative Jewish communities, and the Messianic folks basically did their own thing alongside them with little interaction. But where I am now, there are not many Jewish people at all, and the Messianic population is much more entangled with the normative Jewish community. On one hand it's weird, but on the other hand it makes a lot of sense if they are trying to claim identity of a group to which they actually do not belong.

This actually caused problems with one of my friends who moved here from another city. Some people in the local Jewish community were really offended that she wouldn't consider dating Messianic guys because they were nice people and obviously committed to Judaism given their manner of dress and adherence to ritual practice. She was told she was narrow-minded and prejudiced and ended up feeling really hurt and alienated.

Actually, now I am kind of wondering if this is an ancillary tactic. "Hey, Jewish student who has just moved far away from your family. You can be part of our friendly and vibrant local Jewish community, as long as you are willing to accept people who believe in Jesus as part of that community."

[mirele]

Edited to add that lest people assume that it's purely the Jesus angle with which I have a problem, I don't think the Lubavitchers who believe that their late rebbe (Menachem Mendel Schneerson) was/is the messiah are practicing normative Judaism, either. I wouldn't go to a meshichist rabbi, I probably wouldn't accept their hechsher on food I was going to eat, and I certainly wouldn't marry one. Because while the Lubavitcher Rebbe was a great guy with a lot of great spiritual insights, he has died, and he didn't accomplish the things the Jewish messiah is supposed to accomplish. The fact that some meshichists refer to him as G-d just makes it worse. So no, you can't believe that stuff and be on the same page as traditional, normative Judaism, either.

But for those of us who are curious as to how Christianity really got started (as opposed to the "written after the fact and written by the victors" documents we have now), the Lubavitchers are fascinating. Of course, nothing is ever the same, but another messianic movement appearing in Judaism in my own lifetime and my own country can be illustrative of what may have happened two millennia ago.

[FaustianSlip]

Actually, now I am kind of wondering if this is an ancillary tactic. "Hey, Jewish student who has just moved far away from your family. You can be part of our friendly and vibrant local Jewish community, as long as you are willing to accept people who believe in Jesus as part of that community."

Ugh. We actually had the reverse happen at my university. There was a kid on campus that everyone assumed was Jewish (and pretty observant, at that) because he wore a yarmulke all the time. You'd see him around campus; he was probably the only person I ever saw who wore a kippah on a daily basis. But one day, I spotted him in the dining hall, which was kind of odd, since it wasn't kosher, and he was eating a cheeseburger or something like that, which definitely isn't kosher. A little weird, since people who wear kippot 24/7 usually keep at least some kind of kashrut, but whatever.

Anyway, the kid started out attending things like Hillel and Chabad, which was fine... except it turned out that he was Messianic. The Chabad rabbi discovered that he wasn't Jewish when he talked to the kid's mom in some capacity; something like, "Hi, I'm the campus rabbi," and she said, "Rabbi? We're not Jewish, we're evangelicals." Then there were a number of... incidents in which this kid tried to leverage his outward Jewishness to preach to other Jewish students, which didn't go over well. It was weird because it gave people who didn't know better the impression that hey, maybe it's totally normal to be Jewish and think Jesus is the Messiah, and it was sneaky because of the way he was trying to convert people. It was definitely not a case where he was open about his Messianic leanings and belief in Jesus. Thing is, if he'd just wanted to go to Passover events or Shabbat services at Chabad or Hillel or wherever and refrained from preaching or getting into the Jesus issue, probably no one would have cared. I mean, I went my entire college career, was quite open about the fact that I wasn't Jewish yet, and it was a non-issue (though granted, I had also read a ton about Judaism and was firmly non-Christian at that point).

And I don't think anyone has said that you can't believe in Jesus and think you're Jewish (I certainly didn't- the opposite, I think, actually). Think/believe whatever you want, but the fact that you can think that doesn't mean anyone else is under any obligation to agree with you. Also, if it's Unitarian Universalists we're talking about, my understanding is that they're specifically non-denominational and not pushing any particular religion or belief system so much as a community that fosters religious and spiritual exploration, so it wouldn't particularly matter what belief you held (if any) in a Unitarian congregation. I know there are some Unitarian folks here, so maybe they can correct me if I'm wrong.

Incidentally, I would never in a million years date a Messianic Jew. It's not compatible with my belief system, and as someone who wants to raise her kids Jewish and left Christianity specifically because I don't believe Jesus was the messiah or anything else but a regular human being, I can't imagine it ever working. Not to mention that, y'know, I make it a personal policy not to date people that think I'm going to Hell. Guess I'm just funny that way. I would also feel incredibly deceived if someone I was dating or met on J-Date or something suddenly revealed to me, "Surprise! I'm actually a Messianic Jew!" That would probably be an instant break-up, right there. I'm completely open about my Jewish status with anyone I'm dating, as well, because if someone has issues with the nature of my conversion, better they just steer clear.

Mirele- I agree that Lubavitch is fascinating. I find Hasidism in general fascinating, actually, but the whole meshichist movement in Lubavitch is something else. I personally find it very troublesome that some Orthodox Jews, who would absolutely freak out if it turned out that an entire hunk of the Orthodox community believed in Jesus as the messiah, go out of their way to try and excuse the Lubavitch meshichist movement. To me, it's one in the same, and if you wouldn't trust the ruling or the hechsher of a Messianic rabbi, you shouldn't trust a meshichist Lubavitcher's, either. There are actually rival Chabad houses in Tokyo because of this issue; one is run by a meshichist and is a sort of pirate Chabad house, and the other is the "official" one. It's very bizarre to me. Fortunately, most of the Chabadniks I've met out in other countries have been the standard kind, but I know in Crown Heights there's enough meshichists that there's a real tension between the two sides. Heck, there's a kosher restaurant in Manhattan with big signs up that say, "Rebbe King Messiah" and such in Hebrew. :shock:

[treemom]

Unitarian is a denomination in and of itself.

And Faustian, none of us here have said that being sneaky, lying, etc are good either. But I do think that many people did imply you can not consider yourself a Jew if you are a real, real Jew.

Finally Faustian you seem to make a lot of leaps about Christianity. Not all denomination of Christianity believe the the idea of hell for all those who aren't Xtian. And lots of them are mainline Christian group.

[treemom]

And just to be clear, J date wouldn't be a good fit IMO for a lapsed completely secular Jew like myself or anyone falling far outside the normative practice.

[FaustianSlip]

Treemom, I was raised Christian. Solely within my childhood church and family, I had a priest and other church members who firmly believed that people who weren't born again weren't getting to Heaven (unusually conservative, for Episcopalianism, but not unheard of) and family members who don't think any such thing. I'm well aware that not all Christians believe in Hell. I am also aware, however, that Messianic Judaism is heavily funded, promoted and utilized by evangelical groups like the Southern Baptists and the Seventh Day Adventists in order to lure in and convert normative Jews. There are a number of Messianic congregations that are official members of the Southern Baptist Convention. There's another batch that have formed an organization called the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship. Jews for Jesus was started by a Seventh Day Adventist. Evangelical colleges are establishing colleges of Messianic Jewish Studies in places like New York City, specifically to give their students a ripe field in which to evangelize Jewish people. This is stuff they say right in their promotional video. We can pretend that this Messianic thing is some kind of grass roots movement within traditional Judaism, but none of the evidence indicates that that is the case: it's a concerted effort by established, evangelical Christian groups to convert Jews. Everything I've ever read about Messianic congregations indicate overwhelming majority of people participating in the Messianic movement are Christians, not people who were raised Jewish, found Jesus and switched over. That's why Lina and TT are so hung up on the prospect of faking it 'til they make it to an Orthodox conversion: actually being Jewish and in the Messianic movement is relatively rare, and it carries with it a certain cachet precisely because it gives the entire exercise an air of legitimacy that it currently lacks, in large part due to the fact that proportionally, there are very few actual Jews who are involved (and, y'know, the often deceptive marketing practices that go on).

And the fact of the matter is that there have been problems with Messianic Jews attempting to use sites like J-Date and Beliefnet to meet and try to convert regular Jews. It was an ongoing issue on Beliefnet, where there's a full-fledged Messianic board for them to use. With boring regularity, someone would turn up and start preaching that "fulfilled" Judaism is the way to go, yadda yadda, and not let up until they had to be told to take it back to their own board. I saw it with that kid at my university, and I've seen it in other scenarios. This isn't some random thing; it's part of the M.O. of a lot of these groups. There may be Messianic groups out there that don't use these tactics, but I haven't seen one yet. This whole thread is about two people saying, point blank, that they want to lie their way into a community specifically to lend legitimacy to their fringe belief system. And if you read the comments from similarly-minded people, no one is saying, "Hey, hang on. It's wrong to lie like that," or "Hey, you shouldn't deceive a rabbi or community that way." The only concern is coming from other evangelicals who are worried about Lina and Tony slipping into works-based salvation. That really tells me all I need to know.

[bionicmlle]

I just noticed she has that Pat Robertson quote on the sidebar ("The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.") -- I don't believe I have EVER seen that posted other than in jest....

[QueenMother]

Lina says the wedding is "right around the corner".

Anthony found an apartment in Texas and lives close.

They still want to be Orthodox Jewish (while still believing in Jesus, fyi).

:/

Does anyone else think she just wants an audience for all her wedding posts?

That and she's hoping for lots of wedding gifts from her readers.

[Beeks]

I just noticed she has that Pat Robertson quote on the sidebar ("The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.") -- I don't believe I have EVER seen that posted other than in jest....

Seriously. I wish she were a troll but I think she is really trying to convince herself she believes these things.