Lina Is Back!

[fundiefun]

Lina was eager to get into the good graces with the Dixon family but then her and....Jocelyn (I think?) had a falling out of some kind. Anyways, that was where I think it started.

She admires people like http://www.youtube.com/user/RaYBaSHKatan and http://www.youtube.com/user/aroodawakening

Eventually, she got deeper into Judaism than even the average Messianic.

Wasn't their a blog post about their falling out I initially recall?

[Shirley MacLaine]

She admires people like http://www.youtube.com/user/RaYBaSHKatan

Wow...

[treemom]

.

As far as being Jewish and believing in Jesus, sure you can. If your mom was Jewish or you converted, but you end up deciding that Jesus is really The One after all, you're still Jewish. You are no longer, however, practicing Judaism at that point. Certainly not when you start rewriting the Seder to be all Jesus-y or rewriting Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah services. I mean, I can't start going to mosque, or incorporating stuff from the Muslim prayer service into my Shabbat services and still claim that what I'm doing is normative Judaism, and Islam actually has fewer "problems," from a religious standpoint, than Christianity, because it doesn't introduce the whole concept of the Trinity, which, halachically-speaking, is considered polytheism if you're Jewish (if you're Christian, it's not, which is a whole other can of worms). The way Jesus is portrayed in Christianity and in the New Testament is just completely inconsistent with fundamental Jewish beliefs regarding G-d, who is incorporeal and indivisible. These are really, really basic things; I don't personally get how you can say (and claim to believe) the Shema, on one hand, and then turn around and say you believe the New Testament on the other.

Now, are there going to be people who say that they're Christian and Jewish? Sure. Just like there are people who say they're Buddhist and Jewish, or Wiccan and Jewish,

I also see very little respect shown for Jewish ritual objects; I remember seeing a video on that Messianic screw-ups Tumblr that someone had of some stupid dance routine at a Messianic congregation where they were waving talleisim around and dragging them on the ground. Really? You "love" and "respect" this religion so much that you're using sacred objects as cheap dance props and dragging them on the frigging ground? Thanks, but that kind of love and respect, I can do without.

I did some snipping but I want to comment n a few things. One does not need to believe in the tinity to be a Christian or believe that jesus is the form of god. Do most? Yes, but not all.

Re:Judaism and Buddhism? You are wrong. They are not inconsistent at all. Buddhism has no requirement for a diety, but allows for one and Buddhist concepts can mesh with judaism. And other things.

I know this because as a Jew who is raising a son who felt called to Buddhist practice I spent a lot of time learning about it.

[pomology]

I said from the beginning I was referring to the concept not Lina. In and of itself it is not a problem for me. Lina is, but mostly because she I'd an idiot. A real Jew who is an idiot annoys me too. And I have experienced those as well.

Lina and Anna and the rest of the crazies bother me mostly because they are attempting to out Jew the Jews.

Well said, treemom. I agree very much with both of these statements.

[pomology]

Why does the Jewish community get to decide who is Jewish? That's what I have trouble understanding. It seems uncomfortably close to fundie Christians deciding who is Christian and who is a pharisee. Again, I really don't want to offend. I'm just trying to understand because this is the first time I've really thought about this and I'm coming up with some confusion.

To me the question of "Why does the Jewish community get to decide who is Jewish?" is more analogous to "Why does the United States of America get to decide who is American?" than fundie Christians claiming who is or who isn't Christian. Judaism is a set of religious tenets, but over the millenia it has also evolved into a nation (I refrain from calling it an ethnicity as Jews come from a whole variety of ethnicities--especially converts, but those born Jews as well). Judaism is something that is inherited by birth. You don't have to believe the tenets of the religion to be a Jew. Openly flouting the tenets can get you excommunicated or whatever, but you're still a Jew. I do have serious problems with ultra-Orthodox (or any Orthodox, for that matter) rabbis claiming converts who were converted by the Reform or Conservative movement are not really Jews, which I think is much more akin to the fundie Christians you mentioned.

Besides, Judaism doesn't damn people to hell for not being Jewish. Just because Jews are God's chosen people (for the record, I have huge problems with the concept of chosen-ness, but that's not the point here) doesn't mean they are the only ones that God is going to bless in this world or the world to come. In fact, chosen-ness and being a Jew is more than burden than a reward. Judaism already has a theological recourse for those who believe in the theological tenets of Judaism, but aren't Jewish an don't necessarily wish to convert. These are the Noahide Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws). If you're not Jewish, but follow the Noahide laws, you are not obligated to keep all the mitzvot to be assured a good place in the world to come, but if you are Jewish, you do.

Finally, anti-Semitism has understandably influenced the Jewish community's protective nature on deciding who is a Jew. Occasionally Jews have only been persecuted if they believe in the theological tenets of Judaism (I believe the Spanish Inquisition was an instance of this and if the Jews converted to Catholicism they were in theory left alone, but I am not entirely certain), but much more often, they are persecuted whether they believe in the theological tenets of Judaism or not, or even whether they identify as a Jew or not. For example, the Nuremberg laws defined Jews as those with three or four Jewish grandparents and those with one or two Jewish grandparents as half-breeds, but ultimately, even those with one or two Jewish grandparents were persecuted by the Nazis. That's why Israel's Right of Return applies to those with one Jewish grandparent, even if they aren't halachically a Jew. But my point is the definition of who is a Jew is a touchy subject and because it is often a basis for persecution no matter what your personal beliefs (whereas Christians who are persecuted for being Christians, and I'm talking about real persecution here, not the fundie kind, are pretty much necessarily believing, practicing Christians), Jews are very concerned with the idea of who is a Jew.

[Witsec1]

Here's what I think: you can be eclectic, or you can be a purist, but you can't be both. You can decorate your house eclectically with antiques and modern pieces, and someone with a good eye can make it all work together. But you can't then claim it's a reproduction of a period interior. In general, I prefer an eclectic approach to life, but I appreciate people who can go the purist route. Lina is an eclectic, trying to pretend she's a purist.

I think I mentioned this before on a Lina thread, but what bothers me is the historical ignorance. In the American evangelical version of history, anti-Semitism is the fault of the atheist Darwinist Hitler. Christians like Corrie Ten Boom saved the Jews! Yeah, let's just pretend that for hundreds of years before that, Jews were not killed, harassed, and exiled by Christians who thought they were doing the Lord's work. Let's forget all the Easter pogroms and so on, and take up all the quaint Jewish customs, because Christianity has gotten boring anyway, plus we probably have a a better shot at converting Jews if we convince them they can keep their picturesque traditions!

[mirele]

I'm not talking about LIna, by the way -- I'm talking in a broader sense. There are examples besides people who identify as Jewish but believe Jesus was the Messiah. Like Mormons, who self-identify as Christian, but believe Jesus was a man.

Actually, the standard, "orthodox" configuration of Jesus is that he's fully God and fully man at the same time. It's a heresy (please don't ask me to try and figure out which flavor, I just woke up) to say that Jesus is only God. Where Mormon theology differs is in that it says God the Father has a body of flesh and bone and is not incorporeal. That, to most Christians, is enough to put one outside the household of faith, but, as someone who has studied Christian history and doctrine (but not on a professional level), I'd argue that's not the case. What drives this, "you're not a Christian" condemnation from other Christian groups is an attempt to keep the sheeple from wandering over there to see if the grass is greener. (It's not.) To put it a different way, the Jesus of the New Testament (as well as the earliest followers) would have been bewildered by, for example, the Athanasian creed.

The standard formulation of "Christian" is "follower of Jesus," and the rest, as far as I am concerned, is icing on the cake. Far too many alleged "followers" have taken the doctrines about who Jesus is to be more important than what the man himself taught, and made those doctrines more important. Don't believe me? Go look at the Nicene Creed, it's all about the relationship of the three persons of the Trinity to each other, but there's not a word in there about what Jesus taught. Yet it, and not, for example, the Beatitudes, is recited every Sunday in so many Catholic, Episcopalian and Lutheran churches...to say nothing of being used as a marker of orthodoxy for pretty much everyone else. That, even though the Nicene Creed was hammered out by a group of men approximately 300 years after Jesus died and the Beatitudes at least show some signs from having come from the guy himself.

[mirele]

Finally, anti-Semitism has understandably influenced the Jewish community's protective nature on deciding who is a Jew. Occasionally Jews have only been persecuted if they believe in the theological tenets of Judaism (I believe the Spanish Inquisition was an instance of this and if the Jews converted to Catholicism they were in theory left alone, but I am not entirely certain), but much more often, they are persecuted whether they believe in the theological tenets of Judaism or not, or even whether they identify as a Jew or not.

Ah, no, they were called Marranos, they didn't have "pure blood" (sangre limpieza) and the taint carried down from generation to generation. For example, the paternal grandfather of St. Teresa of Avila was a Marrano and accused of secretly going back to the Jewish faith. He and his sons (who were children at the time) were forced by the Inquisition to walk in a penitential parade wearing a garment called a sanbenito. To get out from underneath this, Teresa's father moved from Toledo to Avila, changed his family name, bought a knighthood and married a woman of sangre limpieza. This information about Teresa's family wasn't known until after World War II.

[treemom]

To me the question of "Why does the Jewish community get to decide who is Jewish?" is more analogous to "Why does the United States of America get to decide who is American?" than fundie Christians claiming who is or who isn't Christian. ), Jews are very concerned with the idea of who is a Jew.

Did some snipping for ease. The thing I would say that is different is that there is one central body charged with laws regarding federal citizenship. Jews disagree amongst themselves as to what a real Jew is.

[Dinorah]

For me, what's annoying about people like Lina, beyond some of the obviously quite complex points regarding Jewish identity, is that she's basically claiming that both Jews and Christians have been wrong for thousands of years, basically she and Anthony are the sole depositaries of the absolute truth. Also, Messianic Jews seem to have little real interest in Judaism beyond the trappings of the holidays and tradition, are any of them aware of how rich and complex secular Jewish culture is? Would any of them, for instance ever pick a book by Kafka? Or even IB Singer?

I also feel that Lina might be wanting to drop the Christian part entirely, but is still too wrapped into Christian fundamentalism and its related online network.

[treemom]

For me, what's annoying about people like Lina, beyond some of the obviously quite complex points regarding Jewish identity, is that she's basically claiming that both Jews and Christians have been wrong for thousands of years, basically she and Anthony are the sole depositaries of the absolute truth. Also, Messianic Jews seem to have little real interest in Judaism beyond the trappings of the holidays and tradition, are any of them aware of how rich and complex secular Jewish culture is? Would any of them, for instance ever pick a book by Kafka? Or even IB Singer?

I also feel that Lina might be wanting to drop the Christian part entirely, but is still too wrapped into Christian fundamentalism and its related online network.

Oh I think it is exactly that. She wants something to make her a speshul snowflake.

I know of one person who is a Christian and identifies as that but at the same time is working through attempting to follow things that we would consider Jewish. She does it because she say it makes her feel closer to her faith by trying to practice feasts, etc that Jesus and the apostles would have. I don't know her well, but I had to even draw that out of her. She isn't a Lina trying to out Jew the Jews. And she isn't doing it so people will admire her and think..wow she is a real thinker. It is a personal choice and one that helps her in her faith.

[Sweetpea1]

Hmmm. I would really like to see Lina read something by Kafka. Not holding my breath, though.

[Beeks]

I guess I don't see a problem with letting groups regulate their own membership. I mean you can't just walk into a country and say "I'm a citizen now!" and most people have no problem with there being rules about becoming a citizen. To me Judaism is the same way - it's more than just a religion, and there are rules for joining. It's hard for me to understand why people view this in a negative light and compare it to fundies. I am open to further discussion because from my side, it doesn't make sense, but I know I'm missing something if so many people think it's a negative.

[treemom]

I guess I don't see a problem with letting groups regulate their own membership. I mean you can't just walk into a country and say "I'm a citizen now!" and most people have no problem with there being rules about becoming a citizen. To me Judaism is the same way - it's more than just a religion, and there are rules for joining. It's hard for me to understand why people view this in a negative light and compare it to fundies. I am open to further discussion because from my side, it doesn't make sense, but I know I'm missing something if so many people think it's a negative.

I don't have an issue with it. If I did I would be saying all those Jews suck for making people following rules for actual conversion.

But like a lot of things, just because you don't subscribe to those membership rules doesnt mean when you self identify as something means you are an asshat at all times because of this.

And again, countries each have ONE body for determining citizenship at the national level. Jews don't. They don't agree to what makes a Jew a Jew.

[demgirl]

I guess my confusion is why the following aren't the same:

Jews say "You aren't Jewish because you believe Jesus was the savior".

Fundies say "You aren't Christian because you believe in works salvation".

Again, I'm not referring to a temple refusing membership of the organization, or a church doing the same. I mean in a broader sense of self-identification.

[treemom]

Also, as a Jew this idea that Judaism is more than just a religion and is super speshul is boggling to me. Yes it is a culture. As a non-religious Jew I totally agree. But so is Christianity. Just because it isn't a culture based on maternal lineage doesn't mean those who are raised Christian don't have just as much of an emotional tie to it and feel like it transcends just faith. And like most religions your cultural food, language, music differ depending oh the where of your religion. Ashkenazi Jews have a different cultural experience than Sephardic for instance. And eastern orthodox Christians have a different cultural identity than Episcoplaians. And Indian Muslims are going to identify differently that morocco an muslims.

Forgive typing. On iPad.

Substitute pretty much any religion.

[treemom]

I guess my confusion is why the following aren't the same:

Jews say "You aren't Jewish because you believe Jesus was the savior".

Fundies say "You aren't Christian because you believe in works salvation".

Again, I'm not referring to a temple refusing membership of the organization, or a church doing the same. I mean in a broader sense of self-identification.

That is what I am getting at, the self identification piece.

[Beeks]

I guess my confusion is why the following aren't the same:

Jews say "You aren't Jewish because you believe Jesus was the savior".

Fundies say "You aren't Christian because you believe in works salvation".

Again, I'm not referring to a temple refusing membership of the organization, or a church doing the same. I mean in a broader sense of self-identification.

I guess I think the better analogy would be: "you aren't Christian because you don't believe Jesus was the savior." Works salvation isn't as basic to the definition of Christianity as "God is one" is to the definition of Judaism.

[treemom]

I guess I think the better analogy would be: "you aren't Christian because you don't believe Jesus was the savior." Works salvation isn't as basic to the definition of Christianity as "God is one" is to the definition of Judaism.

God as a trinity also isn't an absolute requirement to christianity.

You aren't a christian because you don't believe in the trinity is more accurate. Which leaves our lds, and Jehovah's witness at minimum that has that as official doctrine and lots of chrisitians who just don't think that is vital to their faith.

[demgirl]

I don't know... to the more hardline/evangelical/fundie protestants, works salvation is basically the same thing as saying Jesus was not the savior because you have to do something besides believe in him to be saved. This is what I'm saying -- on the issue of self-identification, it isn't simple. ARe you really not a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is the messiah? Or if you don't believe in salvation through grace alone? Are you really not Jewish just because you believe Jesus was the messiah? What if you believe he was the Messiah, the prophet, but not part of God himself? Are you then CHristian? Or Jewish? Or can you not self-identify as either?

[treemom]

Btw this is big deal to me beeks because my heritage and identity has been questioned because I am red headed and freckly and don't have the stereotypical Jewish family and traits. And my parents mental illness cut them off from their faith and so I don't identify with having parents of the same faith.

I was born of a jewish mother and raised by Jewish grandparents. I don't always know everything about it..but I did practice for a very, very long time. And I have had lots of Jews and non Jews tell me none of that really counts because of who I married and what my parents are and because I just don't look like what people imagine a Jew to be. And I have to correct people that there are Irish Jews all the time :).

[Guest Anonymous]

Btw this is big deal to me beeks because my heritage and identity has been questioned because I am red headed and freckly and don't have the stereotypical Jewish family and traits. And my parents mental illness cut them off from their faith and so I don't identify with having parents of the same faith.

I was born of a jewish mother and raised by Jewish grandparents. I don't always know everything about it..but I did practice for a very, very long time. And I have had lots of Jews and non Jews tell me none of that really counts because of who I married and what my parents are and because I just don't look like what people imagine a Jew to be. And I have to correct people that there are Irish Jews all the time :).

And I just don't GET that. I know more Jews who are of Germanic/Czech background (myself and my son included, but I'm a convert but we have suspicions about some family heritage that nobody will talk to me about...and everyone is in denial about it.) that are redheaded, freckly and pale. At my shul, there are TONS of redheads (ours was founded originally by a bunch of folks of Czech descent so that's not surprising).

I don't assume someone is irish because of their red hair unless they're talking with a brogue. And with the ease at which people can dye their hair these days....

And for the record, I have Scots Irish heritage too. We joke that our son is going to be with worlds first hobbit bagpiper rabbi. (I don't care if he becomes a rabbi or not, its just like when my parents "trained" me at the age of 3 to tell everyone I wanted to be a nuclear physicist to the great merriment of our family).

I'm also very lucky because my husband's English/German family has a very "Jewish" last name (even though there IS no Jewish heritage there at all, the last name was misspelled at Ellis island from Roethe to Roth). So people assume he was Jewish from birth when he's not, we're both converts. Its actually kind of hilarious.

My issue with Lina comes from she kinda wants to have her cake and eat it too. Like others have said, she's all "zomg i'm a speshul snowflake". And as another person said, this sort of behavior makes other converts like myself and my husband come under suspicion. Its bad to the point where I almost am afraid to go to one of my Catholic relative's weddings for fear someone will think I was insincere about converting and am reverting back to my formerly rosary'prayin'ways. (Which incidentally I would never do!)

[treemom]

I think it also depends on where you are. Here in the south there is an expectation that Jew =X. And my parents have complicated issues. I have had people inist that since my parents converted when I was a child to be a real, real Jew I have to go through the conversion process.

Again Lina is an asshat, but I also feel strongly in letting people self identify. Let's criticize them for their actions...the lying, the disrespect for religions items, the mangling Seder etc. But I would like to avoid saying you can't be a real Jew if you aren't X.

[treemom]

Oh and my family is Hungarian and German. And we have a lot of blondes in there which amuses me. But there are Irish Jews. There are pretty much everything Jews with the diaspora.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think it also depends on where you are. Here in the south there is an expectation that Jew =X. And my parents have complicated issues. I have had people inist that since my parents converted when I was a child to be a real, real Jew I have to go through the conversion process.

Again Lina is an asshat, but I also feel strongly in letting people self identify. Let's criticize them for their actions...the lying, the disrespect for religions items, the mangling Seder etc. But I would like to avoid saying you can't be a real Jew if you aren't X.

And in my reform congregation, id bet my wad, my Rabbi would likely say you're fine. My husbands best friend had a similar struggle to yours. Also in the south. And he's no longer practicing either. Gee I wonder why.