Lina Is Back!

[treemom]

Just to clarify I never denied the problems exist Faustian. I was simply responding to the responses directly back to me saying...but that isn't a JEW a JEW can't be this and that. I clearly, multiple times said I wasn't talking about Lina, but rather to the idea that one can't believe themselves to be Jewish and believe that Christ was the Messiah.

I understand your personal opinion is that that can't happen. I simply say it is equavalient to all the other people who make the one true scotsman argument about every religion.

Let's judge people for their actions, like the ones you described, not that they exist outside of the normal as you define it.

[emeraldskull]

Seriously. I wish she were a troll but I think she is really trying to convince herself she believes these things.

o.O Doesn't she realize that's a parody of exactly her line of thinking??

I'm surprised (yet shouldn't be, I suppose) that she didn't catch the blatant sarcasm of that statement.

[FaustianSlip]

I clearly, multiple times said I wasn't talking about Lina, but rather to the idea that one can't believe themselves to be Jewish and believe that Christ was the Messiah.

I understand your personal opinion is that that can't happen

Except that isn't my personal opinion at all, and I've said so repeatedly now. Of course someone can think they're Jewish (or actually be Jewish, as I've said at least three times now) and believe that Jesus was the Messiah. People can view themselves however they want. I could declare myself Zoroastrian and believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if I wanted to, but the fact that I have every right to identify in whatever manner I please does not obligate anyone else to agree with me, accept me as one of their own or otherwise validate that position. Now obviously, common manners and respect would dictate that even if I disagree with someone about something like this, that's something I wouldn't even bring up unless the person in question were trying to take on a ritual role in my synagogue that needs to be fulfilled by a Jewish person, disrupting worship with attempts to proselytize or we were dating or something. And in those cases, disputes should be handled as compassionately and respectfully as possible. That said, the fact that an individual can consider him or herself Jewish while simultaneously believing that Jesus (or Menachem Mendel Schneerson, or Shabbatai Tzvi, or anyone else that has come along and been thought by some to be the Messiah) is the Messiah doesn't automatically make it standard Jewish practice that will be acceptable to the Jewish community at large.

To make my position explicit, Jesus is neither the first nor the last person that some Jewish people have chosen to follow, thinking he was the Messiah. There was Bar Kochba before him and people like Shabbatai Tzvi after him. None of those people stopped being Jewish because they threw their lot in with people who didn't turn out to be the Messiah, and I'm sure they considered themselves Jewish every step of the way. If it's possible to be an atheist and consider yourself a Jew (and it certainly is), why wouldn't it be possible to believe Jesus is the Messiah and consider yourself Jewish? But just like atheistic beliefs held by a Jewish person are still atheistic, Christian beliefs held by a Jewish person are still Christian. They don't become part of Jewish law just because a handful of Jews have bought into them.

I apologize if I sound frustrated, and maybe I'm not doing a great job of explaining myself, but I haven't once said that you can't be Jewish and think Jesus is the Messiah. I have said that a belief that Jesus is the Messiah is a fundamentally Christian belief. There's a difference.

[treemom]

Except that isn't my personal opinion at all, and I've said so repeatedly now. Of course someone can think they're Jewish (or actually be Jewish, as I've said at least three times now) and believe that Jesus was the Messiah. People can view themselves however they want. I could declare myself Zoroastrian and believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if I wanted to, but the fact that I have every right to identify in whatever manner I please does not obligate anyone else to agree with me, accept me as one of their own or otherwise validate that position. Now obviously, common manners and respect would dictate that even if I disagree with someone about something like this, that's something I wouldn't even bring up unless the person in question were trying to take on a ritual role in my synagogue that needs to be fulfilled by a Jewish person, disrupting worship with attempts to proselytize or we were dating or something. And in those cases, disputes should be handled as compassionately and respectfully as possible. That said, the fact that an individual can consider him or herself Jewish while simultaneously believing that Jesus (or Menachem Mendel Schneerson, or Shabbatai Tzvi, or anyone else that has come along and been thought by some to be the Messiah) is the Messiah doesn't automatically make it standard Jewish practice that will be acceptable to the Jewish community at large.

To make my position explicit, Jesus is neither the first nor the last person that some Jewish people have chosen to follow, thinking he was the Messiah. There was Bar Kochba before him and people like Shabbatai Tzvi after him. None of those people stopped being Jewish because they threw their lot in with people who didn't turn out to be the Messiah, and I'm sure they considered themselves Jewish every step of the way. If it's possible to be an atheist and consider yourself a Jew (and it certainly is), why wouldn't it be possible to believe Jesus is the Messiah and consider yourself Jewish? But just like atheistic beliefs held by a Jewish person are still atheistic, Christian beliefs held by a Jewish person are still Christian. They don't become part of Jewish law just because a handful of Jews have bought into them.

I apologize if I sound frustrated, and maybe I'm not doing a great job of explaining myself, but I haven't once said that you can't be Jewish and think Jesus is the Messiah. I have said that a belief that Jesus is the Messiah is a fundamentally Christian belief. There's a difference.

I think the problem is I never argued it was a Jewish concept or anything but Christian. And no, as I recall, and could be wrong because I am and often, you mostly spoke of X not fitting into normative Judaism (as you, and yes, others define it). And at no point did I or anyone else in this thread attempt to argue that Christian beliefs somehow become something other Christian.

Demgirl and I were responded to ONE statement. That you can't believe in Christ as the Messiah and be a Jew. To which someone asked why and I simply said as I have again and again that it is a one true scotsman concept. And the response was consisitently...why can Jews decide who are Jews it is just like citizenship. Although as I pointed out it isn't at all. Because citizenship for a country is determined by one group and not all the different Jewish groups agree on what = Jew and what equals converted Jew.

Maybe I am not explaining myself well...because you seem to be answering arguments I didnt see anyone make on this thread.

Anyhow, I am happy to let it die a death. Or happy to continue the discussion..whichever.

[treemom]

Cool. Really. Take what you need from where you find it and make your faith work for you. Do not, however, claim to be Jewish while ignoring a major aspect of the Jewish faith. If you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, you are NOT Jewish. No matter how many of their traditions you attempt to incorporate into your new religion and life.

I can't imagine any actual practicing, believing Jew giving any respect to the fakes like Lina. Not unless they're playing along trying to get her to convert completely.

Faustian, this was the quote that started the back and forth. Someone most certainly did say that.

[FaustianSlip]

But it wasn't me, was it? Please don't put words in my mouth or take someone else's statement, which I actually rebutted in my first reply on the topic (I can go back and quote it directly, if you want, but I believe my words were, "Sure you can be Jewish and believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because once you're Jewish, you're Jewish- what you do or don't believe doesn't change that"), and attribute them to me unless I explicitly agreed with them, which I did not. I don't appreciate you telling me that XYZ is my opinion when I've stated, repeatedly, that it is not, especially when you follow up with a quote from a completely different person saying what you're claiming is my opinion as if that somehow proves something when I specifically disagreed with her. It makes me feel like you haven't bothered to read a single thing I've read. Which, hey, fine, but don't then claim to know my mind on the subject.

And yes, I did say that believing Jesus (or pretty much anyone else at the moment, for that matter) is the Messiah is a not normative, standard Jewish belief. You've agreed yourself that it is not, because it's Christian. Holding non-Jewish beliefs, however, doesn't revoke your Jewishness or change your status as a Jew, because once you're Jewish, you're Jewish forever. Period. As far as people who weren't Jewish to begin with, they can call themselves tribal shaman, for all I care. Call yourself whatever you want, view yourself however you want, but Judaism is a community religion, and if you decide to strike out on your own as a lone ranger, declaring yourself Jewish without having recognition of your status from any mainstream Jewish community, particularly if you espouse beliefs that aren't traditionally Jewish, yeah, you're going to have a hard row to hoe, but it's not like the Jewish legitimacy police are going to knock on your door and make you stop.

[treemom]

But it wasn't me, was it? Please don't put words in my mouth or take someone else's statement, which I actually rebutted in my first reply on the topic (I can go back and quote it directly, if you want, but I believe my words were, "Sure you can be Jewish and believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because once you're Jewish, you're Jewish- what you do or don't believe doesn't change that"), and attribute them to me unless I explicitly agreed with them, which I did not. I don't appreciate you telling me that XYZ is my opinion when I've stated, repeatedly, that it is not, especially when you follow up with a quote from a completely different person saying what you're claiming is my opinion as if that somehow proves something when I specifically disagreed with her. It makes me feel like you haven't bothered to read a single thing I've read. Which, hey, fine, but don't then claim to know my mind on the subject.

And yes, I did say that believing Jesus (or pretty much anyone else at the moment, for that matter) is the Messiah is a not normative, standard Jewish belief. You've agreed yourself that it is not, because it's Christian. Holding non-Jewish beliefs, however, doesn't revoke your Jewishness or change your status as a Jew, because once you're Jewish, you're Jewish forever. Period. As far as people who weren't Jewish to begin with, they can call themselves tribal shaman, for all I care. Call yourself whatever you want, view yourself however you want, but Judaism is a community religion, and if you decide to strike out on your own as a lone ranger, declaring yourself Jewish without having recognition of your status from any mainstream Jewish community, particularly if you espouse beliefs that aren't traditionally Jewish, yeah, you're going to have a hard row to hoe, but it's not like the Jewish legitimacy police are going to knock on your door and make you stop.

UGH! I apologize but I meant royal you. And I also never said you said that.

And for the record for every time I said I felt like you implied something you starting going off about Lina or the Jews for Jesus, who I made every clearly I was not referring to.

So you can feel like I didn't read your posts, but to be fair...you didn't read mine either. I did not attribute that quote to you. Nor is everything I wrote specifically directed to you and you alone, including posts where I quoted you. In fact as I recall one of my posts said I am quoting you, but this is really directed to any reader not you specifically.

ETA one more time, Finally I have no idea WTF you have or did ever argue with me. Every single damn point you made I had no real beef with. Nor did I ever say, explicitly or implicitly, that those things should be allowed or that by not letting them join up some wrong is being done.

[FaustianSlip]

You know, there's no reason to start swearing at me. I've been perfectly polite and respectful throughout this discussion, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from you. I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume when someone first addresses you by name, then states a position with which you previously agreed and says, "I understand your personal opinion is that that can't happen," that that is directed toward you, specifically, rather than the group as a whole.

In any case, I don't see this actually going anywhere useful, and I don't want to let my irritation get me saying things I'll probably regret later, so I think I'll bow out of further discussion with you on this topic (now, if someone wants to keep discussing Lina, I'm all over it, seeing as how she's a frigging trainwreck). Oh, and I've read every single one of your posts, just FYI.

[Deleted03]

o.O Doesn't she realize that's a parody of exactly her line of thinking??

I'm surprised (yet shouldn't be, I suppose) that she didn't catch the blatant sarcasm of that statement.

aaaah it's sarcasm, I thought it was some batshit conservative... makes more sense (I mean I'm only against the second one and the first one should only mean encouragement for those who don't have the strength or are scared for their lives) lol

[Beeks]

aaaah it's sarcasm, I thought it was some batshit conservative... makes more sense (I mean I'm only against the second one and the first one should only mean encouragement for those who don't have the strength or are scared for their lives) lol

Sadly, I am pretty sure the quote itself is real. It's just that most people quote it sarcastically....Lina is taking it seriously.

[treemom]

You know, there's no reason to start swearing at me. I've been perfectly polite and respectful throughout this discussion, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same from you. I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume when someone first addresses you by name, then states a position with which you previously agreed and says, "I understand your personal opinion is that that can't happen," that that is directed toward you, specifically, rather than the group as a whole.

In any case, I don't see this actually going anywhere useful, and I don't want to let my irritation get me saying things I'll probably regret later, so I think I'll bow out of further discussion with you on this topic (now, if someone wants to keep discussing Lina, I'm all over it, seeing as how she's a frigging trainwreck). Oh, and I've read every single one of your posts, just FYI.

I did not swear at you.

And I also apologized. Clearly you missed that too. Obviously I am supposed to say I was wrong and misquoted you and misunderstood, but the same doesn't apply in reverse.

I also said I was willing to let it die, because really it is semantics. It doesn't actually matter and I felt like we were missing each other. I am just astounded that I can even apologize for saying you when I should have made it more obvious I meant a general you, but that was clearly not good enough.

The only exchanges I really had with you were to disagree with Buddhism and Judaism presenting theological issues and to point out you were painting all of Christianity with a wide brush and that Uus are a Christian denomination not a non sectarian community group. Why you seem convinced I was attacking you is beyond me.

Again, I apologize for a clear poor choice of words in the once sentence where I said your personal opinion. I can understand where it meant something else entirely than what I meAnt. Other than that, well I have no idea wtf you want from me.

[Deleted03]

Sadly, I am pretty sure the quote itself is real. It's just that most people quote it sarcastically....Lina is taking it seriously.

ah ok...

[FaustianSlip]

Ugh. I know I said I was done with this, but like a good Pavlov's dog responding to deliberate tweaking....

I did not swear at you.

C'mon, treemom, really? What was this, then?

Finally I have no idea WTF you have or did ever argue with me. Every single damn point you made I had no real beef with.

I know what "WTF" stands for, for one, and I don't really think I need to spell out that "damn" is also a swear. Not that my virgin eyes have never read a swear word before, but I don't really see why it was necessary to just randomly start throwing them at me now.

And I also apologized. Clearly you missed that too. Obviously I am supposed to say I was wrong and misquoted you and misunderstood, but the same doesn't apply in reverse.

No, I didn't miss it, but an apology kind of loses its impact, and I'm inclined to doubt its sincerity when it's immediately followed up by swearing at me- that you edited the post to add, no less. I mean, I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to take that. I also apologized to you for being irritable earlier, incidentally, which you didn't acknowledge either. I guess this is the part where I'm supposed to go to great lengths to point it out and bemoan the fact that it was never acknowledged?

I also said I was willing to let it die, because really it is semantics.

No one is stopping you from just not replying (and admittedly, the same applies to me), for one thing. But likewise, you seem to want the last word, and you're welcome to it. The only reason I'm responding now is because I don't particularly appreciate someone swearing at me, repeatedly, for no apparent reason, then putting on this, "Oh, I'm such a martyr, apologizing to you and everything," act, then following it up with a big old, "Anyway, what the fuck else do you want?!" If you don't like what I have to say, put me on ignore (I don't have that option because you're a mod, in case you're wondering why I don't do the same). It's not going to hurt my feelings or anything, and while it's not deliberate at all, I'm obviously getting on your nerves for whatever reason, which isn't likely to change.

And now I'm really done with this, because it's getting singularly boring.

[defrauding]

I understand your personal opinion is that that can't happen. I simply say it is equavalient to all the other people who make the one true scotsman argument about every religion.

I don't think this is a case of the No True Scotsman fallacy because "Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah" is a clear and generally accepted condition of being a Jew at this point. It's not as universally accepted as "Christians do not worship Satan," to borrow an example from RationalWiki explaining when the fallacy doesn't apply, but I think the condition's accepted enough that it can't be handwaved away as a logical fallacy.

Edit: Building off of mirele's point, I wonder if "Jews do not accept Schneerson as the Messiah" may eventually become a generally accepted condition of being a Jew.

[treemom]

Swearing at you means something different to me than it does to you. For instance you are a bitch is swearing at someone to me. Saying what the he'll is up or why the fuck either of us arguing is not swearing at someone in my opinion. But regardless, I guess I will apologize again, because twice isn't enough. I sincerely and truly apologize for using unclear language. You are correct in that the way I worded it was such it did appear I was explicitly saying something was you opinion. For that I apologize. Regarding the swearing, well, I just am not going to. I didnt swear at you as i interpret that and used it as an exasperated phrase not one directed or descriptive at you.I didn't call you a name, I used a phrase that I use when I seriously don't feel like I understand. I meant no ill will and I have often typed wtf here and sworn. I do not think that owes you an apology.

But again, just to be clear I am honestly sorry I twisted your words.

Added to delete a partial sentence that made no sense. Not to swear at anyone.

[treemom]

I don't think this is a case of the No True Scotsman fallacy because "Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah" is a clear and generally accepted condition of being a Jew at this point. It's not as universally accepted as "Christians do not worship Satan," to borrow an example from RationalWiki explaining when the fallacy doesn't apply, but I think the condition's accepted enough that it can't be handwaved away as a logical fallacy.

Edit: Building off of mirele's point, I wonder if "Jews do not accept Schneerson as the Messiah" may eventually become a generally accepted condition of being a Jew.

Ok. But I did say equivalent of :). But regardless, I get it.

[treemom]

And I am not sure why you think I would put you on ignore. Because it was a back and forth. Honestly, it seems to have bothered you a lot more than me. I am not trying to be a martyr. I really do not understand what you beef with me is at this point. And I was under the impression that the mod thing was temporary so I can be demodded if needed if you want to ignore me. But I really don't see a need to do the reverse, nor do I understand why you would think I would feel that way.

[treemom]

And just because I am feeling defensive which always wants me to explain myself I always read whatever posts I participated on first because I have a lot less time these days and the board is so busy. So I haven't been madly refreshing for a response, I just saw it. I really don't want to have the last word, I wanted to explain the swearing, and I did not swear in other sentences I probably would have in my last two posts. And I wanted to try one more time to offer an apology that was taken as sincerely as I offered it.

I have clearly screwed up at this point, but I am sincerely sorry regarding the your opinion business. And at this point I promise I will let it die.

[Lainey]

I like puffins.

[Sunnichick31]

Puffins are soo cute!

[Soulhuntress]

I tried a vegan nail polish Spa Ritual a while back. The salon I went to replaced OPI with this stuff and it is not as smelly and lasts forever!

[Guest Anonymous]

Puffins are soo cute!

I'm partial to the ridiculousness that are flamingos....

[bea]

*I* am partial to the idea that Lina will get married, they will realize that living according to their own crazy religious standards is impossible, and join some mainstream church.

Or that Lina marries him, spends a few weeks as a "submissive wife," and bails the F*ck OUT.

[fundifugee]

. . . Lina drives me crazy what with her major lack of respect for a religion she claims to want to be part of.

This, and it applies to basically ALL the fundy bloggers I've read thanks to FJ.

[fundifugee]

And, did she start pretending to be Jewish AFTER meeting TT or did they start playing Jewish together?

(There is a psychiatric diagnosis for this, called folie a deux....it has a proper medical definition but basically means when two people go batshit crazy together.