Duggars By the Dozen - General Discussion - Part 8

[Mela99]

No wonder watching 19 Kids scares the hell out of the cats. They've seen what happens to the Duggar felines.

That bothers me more than some of the shit they pull with kids. I see stray cats and mistreated cats and cry for an hour. We're currently fostering a few strays on our porch... kills me I can't bring them inside...

[Feberin]

TLC is showing the early Duggar specials. Dare I say that J'Chelle seemed normal back then? The fame has definitely gone to her head.

I'm curious how you define normal? Do you mean not so disconnected then yes. If you mean actually like an average person then hell no. Normal people don't wear frumpers and have 14 children.

[ljohnson2006]

I mean how disconnected J’Chelle is from her kids now. In the early specials she actually taught them. Now she relies on her kids, and computers. i think the fame has definitely gone to her and Boob’s heads. J’Chelle acts like she the Grandmother Of The Year with the 3 M’s, but she’s just as disconnected with them, as she is with her own kids. She was so excited to have grandkids, but now she could give a rat’s ass about them. All of the times when J’Chelle has to interact with her kids, seem so forced.

[Fluffypaws]

I found this little info thing about the upcoming season. Sorry if it has already been posted.

-- New Episodes Begin Airing Tuesday, September 2 on TLC --

-- The Series Will Celebrate its 150th Episode during this Upcoming Season --

(Los Angeles, Ca.) – Following Jill and Derick’s exciting engagement finale on 19 KIDS & COUNTING earlier this summer, the new season picks up with the happy couple planning for their big day. Jim Bob and Michelle start the emotional journey of giving away their first daughter in marriage as Jill and Derick plan their rapidly approaching nuptials. From dress shopping to cake tasting, it’s all hands on deck as the engaged pair prepare to say their “I dos†in front of more than 1,000 of their closest friends and family. But this happy occasion is bittersweet as the family starts to realize what giving away Jill will mean to their close-knit clan. 19 KIDS & COUNTING returns with all-new episodes Tuesday, September 2 at 9 PM (ET/PT) and airs Tuesdays in the same timeslot through November on TLC.

Also this season, Jessa and Ben continue to grow closer as their courtship takes an unexpected turn when Ben makes a move to live closer to Jessa. Jim Bob and Michelle celebrate 30 years of marriage as Jill and Derick prepare their new home together with the help of the family. The newly engaged couple also tends to Derick’s mom Cathy as she bravely battles cancer.And after their first year in Washington, D.C., Josh, Anna and their three kids decide it may be time to make a few changes in their own growing famil. Big changes are underway for a big family on this season of 19 KIDS & COUNTING.

[RosyDaisy]

No wonder watching 19 Kids scares the hell out of the cats. They've seen what happens to the Duggar felines.

Cats are not submissive creatures. They're not scared, just mad and offended that we would watch such things on tv... LOL!

[Toothfairy]

The wedding is going to take up the whole season. Then next season it's jessa. What the theme next

[grandmadugger]

I think something broke in Michelle after Jubilee. I can't fault her, most women wouldn't be the same after something like that. The difference is most women would seek professional help. Boob has lots of faults but I do think he knows he kids as well as possible. I caught a clip of an interview about giving Jill away and he talked about things he & Jill shared. Michelle offered none of those anecdotes, she had no special memories with Jill. It broke my heart that her own mother didn't have something like "Making cookies for the holidays" or anything for her.

[JBsHairspray]

Overdosing on TLC's Duggarpalooza. LOVE LOVE LOVE that the HoneyMaid "This is Wholesome" ad with the gay couple has been running through it all night long. :D

[Joan of Snarc]

I found this little info thing about the upcoming season. Sorry if it has already been posted.

-- New Episodes Begin Airing Tuesday, September 2 on TLC --

-- The Series Will Celebrate its 150th Episode during this Upcoming Season --

(Los Angeles, Ca.) – Following Jill and Derick’s exciting engagement finale on 19 KIDS & COUNTING earlier this summer, the new season picks up with the happy couple planning for their big day. Jim Bob and Michelle start the emotional journey of giving away their first daughter in marriage as Jill and Derick plan their rapidly approaching nuptials. From dress shopping to cake tasting, it’s all hands on deck as the engaged pair prepare to say their “I dos†in front of more than 1,000 of their closest friends and family. But this happy occasion is bittersweet as the family starts to realize what giving away Jill will mean to their close-knit clan. 19 KIDS & COUNTING returns with all-new episodes Tuesday, September 2 at 9 PM (ET/PT) and airs Tuesdays in the same timeslot through November on TLC.

Also this season, Jessa and Ben continue to grow closer as their courtship takes an unexpected turn when Ben makes a move to live closer to Jessa. Jim Bob and Michelle celebrate 30 years of marriage as Jill and Derick prepare their new home together with the help of the family. The newly engaged couple also tends to Derick’s mom Cathy as she bravely battles cancer.And after their first year in Washington, D.C., Josh, Anna and their three kids decide it may be time to make a few changes in their own growing famil. Big changes are underway for a big family on this season of 19 KIDS & COUNTING.

The copywriter for this teaser deserves some kind of award for making the mundane seem breathlessly exciting.

:roll:

[freejoyannatoo]

I mean how disconnected J’Chelle is from her kids now. In the early specials she actually taught them. Now she relies on her kids, and computers. i think the fame has definitely gone to her and Boob’s heads. J’Chelle acts like she the Grandmother Of The Year with the 3 M’s, but she’s just as disconnected with them, as she is with her own kids. She was so excited to have grandkids, but now she could give a rat’s ass about them. All of the times when J’Chelle has to interact with her kids, seem so forced.

Yesterday I was watching a couple of episodes where Josie is newborn and in the hospital (that's what they are showing in the UK right now).

Jennifer, who I guess would be two years old at that point, said something to Michelle and Michelle replied "I'm sure you know what you're saying but I don't". :angry-banghead: Heaven forbid she should take the time to try and figure it out. It's just one of her children trying to communicate with her after all - not something important.

This was at the time the kids were running riot in the rental home while Michelle put her feet up for eight hours a day and pumped milk. It did make me laugh to see that freezer full of DQ's output and know that just a few days later Josie would be found to be unable to tolerate it :D (a bit like how we feel about her mother perhaps).

Anyway, Mullet then says, "Mommy's going to the hospital to see baby Josie". Jenny says "In the car?" You can tell it's a question by her intonation, and the word "car" is perfectly clear. She repeats this a few times while J'chelle looks blankly at her for a while and then goes into her "Bye!! Mommy loves you!!" routine.

Oh well, at least Jenny had Jill for a few years :cry:

[ariel9]

Is the buddy system still in place now? I ask this because the FakeJoshDuggar instagram suggested that Jana was Josie's buddy so I thought maybe that is why she does notcourt. I mean there hasn't been any new buddies in the TTH for a long time. The younger kids are reaching the age where the older girls would have had a buddy.

[pineapple450]

Is the buddy system still in place now? I ask this because the FakeJoshDuggar instagram suggested that Jana was Josie's buddy so I thought maybe that is why she does notcourt. I mean there hasn't been any new buddies in the TTH for a long time. The younger kids are reaching the age where the older girls would have had a buddy.

It is because a) it's part of their brand and b) it started out of necesity and now has morphed into J'Chelle laziness (she and Boob can't handle the Howlers, they're always moping about where "their older girls" are when they have to go somewhere) and c) the girls are SAHDs and so the only things they have to do are keep house and chilcare.

I wonder if the older girls sometimes resent Joy/feel a big rift between them because while they had crap loads of responsiblities dumped on them (I think Jessa had a buddy at like, age 7), she hasn't had to do anything. Joy could've easily be assigned one of the Lost Girls to buddy so that the older girls didn't have to have 3-4 a piece.

[NjoyingNsanity]

Kinda a random thought here, but with all the Duggar weddings and engagements I got to thinking with families that large and the whole Gothard/ATI crowd being a relatively small group when compared to the rest of the population. Has anybody else wondered how many generation they can go before they start to become inbred? I mean if all 19 Duggar kids marry into 19 other fundie family that's going to be a shitload of first cousins. Keep that up for a few generations, and I could see the Gothard/ATI crowd becoming like European royalty. Yes, there would be the occasional new converts to add a bit of new DNA, but things could get pretty genetically haphazard for say the fourth generation on. The gene pool gets smaller when you consider some kids leave the lifestyle and others never marry. I just wonder if anyone has ever really thought about the sustainability of the insular lifestyle Gothard and ATI promote.

[Coco]

Kinda a random thought here, but with all the Duggar weddings and engagements I got to thinking with families that large and the whole Gothard/ATI crowd being a relatively small group when compared to the rest of the population. Has anybody else wondered how many generation they can go before they start to become inbred? I mean if all 19 Duggar kids marry into 19 other fundie family that's going to be a shitload of first cousins. Keep that up for a few generations, and I could see the Gothard/ATI crowd becoming like European royalty. Yes, there would be the occasional new converts to add a bit of new DNA, but things could get pretty genetically haphazard for say the fourth generation on. The gene pool gets smaller when you consider some kids leave the lifestyle and others never marry. I just wonder if anyone has ever really thought about the sustainability of the insular lifestyle Gothard and ATI promote.

well they want to take over the world and make everybody live like them, so i don't think it's become a concern to them yet. :stir-pot:

[It'sFunToRun]

Kinda a random thought here, but with all the Duggar weddings and engagements I got to thinking with families that large and the whole Gothard/ATI crowd being a relatively small group when compared to the rest of the population. Has anybody else wondered how many generation they can go before they start to become inbred? I mean if all 19 Duggar kids marry into 19 other fundie family that's going to be a shitload of first cousins. Keep that up for a few generations, and I could see the Gothard/ATI crowd becoming like European royalty. Yes, there would be the occasional new converts to add a bit of new DNA, but things could get pretty genetically haphazard for say the fourth generation on. The gene pool gets smaller when you consider some kids leave the lifestyle and others never marry. I just wonder if anyone has ever really thought about the sustainability of the insular lifestyle Gothard and ATI promote.

I can imagine something happening to ATI in the next few years that will make everyone much more picky about marriage for their children. Suddenly, someone like Ben and Derrick will be out of the question because they aren't ATI, and someone like Anna would be regarded and probably rejected because some of her siblings left the cult, and she grew up in the same poisonous, unholy atmosphere. Courtship questionnaires will have 2,000 questions including "what color is your tablecloth" and people will be fast to reject someone who disagrees even in one area. Instead of the young person looking over the questionnaire, it will be the parents, and the children won't even meet until the parents meet.

In an average ATI family of 8 children, only one will marry in their twenties and go on to have a quiverful, another one will marry in their mid thirties and have 2-5 children, one or two will leave the cult, thus lower the chances of their nieces and nephews having courtships, and the rest will be like Poor Sarah Maxwell forever. ATI won't go out with a bang, but with a sexually-repressed sigh.

[freejoyannatoo]

Kinda a random thought here, but with all the Duggar weddings and engagements I got to thinking with families that large and the whole Gothard/ATI crowd being a relatively small group when compared to the rest of the population. Has anybody else wondered how many generation they can go before they start to become inbred? I mean if all 19 Duggar kids marry into 19 other fundie family that's going to be a shitload of first cousins. Keep that up for a few generations, and I could see the Gothard/ATI crowd becoming like European royalty. Yes, there would be the occasional new converts to add a bit of new DNA, but things could get pretty genetically haphazard for say the fourth generation on. The gene pool gets smaller when you consider some kids leave the lifestyle and others never marry. I just wonder if anyone has ever really thought about the sustainability of the insular lifestyle Gothard and ATI promote.

It's an interesting thought. I reckon the Duggars won't all marry within the community though - Jill has already not done so. Jill! Who'd have thought it would be her that broke with convention.

It does depend on how successful they are at converting outsiders I guess.

What about Amish and similar communities - do they have genetic problems caused by inbreeding? Owning my lack of education in this area.

[jaynie]

It's an interesting thought. I reckon the Duggars won't all marry within the community though - Jill has already not done so. Jill! Who'd have thought it would be her that broke with convention.

It does depend on how successful they are at converting outsiders I guess.

What about Amish and similar communities - do they have genetic problems caused by inbreeding? Owning my lack of education in this area.

Yes, the Amish have higher incidences of genetic disorders. Also the flds Mormon community in Colorado city/Hillsdale account for most of the cases of fumerase deficiency worldwide. So if the fundie population wanes rather than growing, and there are fewer converts in the future (which I think is likely) then the risk of problems will increase. However, there is an exceptionally high level of inbreeding in the flds community, and the Amish have been isolated for a long time, so I suspect it would take a while for big problems to emerge on a massive scale. But I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject either :) so take it with a grain of salt.

[nastyhobbitses]

It's an interesting thought. I reckon the Duggars won't all marry within the community though - Jill has already not done so. Jill! Who'd have thought it would be her that broke with convention.

It does depend on how successful they are at converting outsiders I guess.

What about Amish and similar communities - do they have genetic problems caused by inbreeding? Owning my lack of education in this area.

Amish people do have higher instances of certain genetic disorders, such as dwarfism, unusual blood types, and metabolic disorders because they don't marry much outside the community. Same thing occurred with European royal families, since they really didn't want to marry commoners/royals they felt were beneath them -- a lot of people (nominally) running countries and empires in the 19th century were severely mentally and physically handicapped from genetic conditions caused by inbreeding.

[NjoyingNsanity]

I knew about the Amish and the FLDS that is why I was wondering about the fundies. I know not all of the families are the size of the Duggar or Bates clans, but most of them have fairly large families. Some families aren't making the courtships and marriages they thought they would, and we've all discussed many late 20's early 30's SAHD's who still have no prospects in the courtship department. One good thing this generation may not be as prolific in the whole arrows for the quiver department. There have to be a percentage that make a run for it the second they turn 18, and others who will drift away from the movement later in life.

The whole courtship model may turn out to be one of the factors in the movement's downfall the younger generation aren't marrying as quickly as their parents had expected. They're also marrying older than their parents did thus cutting down on the number of years they have to fill their quiver. They also have a problem with women who are coming to the end of their most fertile years still unmarried. I'm wondering when the hell they are going to catch onto the fact that the kids who were brought up Quiverfull aren't having the baby boom they were expecting. Will they loosen up on the courtship rules or will they go further down the rabbit hole of crazy and start arranging marriages? I'm expecting to start hearing someone promoting arranged marriages soon. Maybe patriarchal fathers will do like nobility of the past and betroth their children while still in infancy that way good little fundies can grow up knowing who they can give a piece of their heart to.

[Onomatopoetikon]

I'm pretty sure in one episode, I saw Jimbob give one of the daughters, I think it was Jana, a regular hug. It was after his dad died, and she had made a memorial on the computer for him, JB cried a bit and hugged her.

I think the side hug thing is all for show on TV, I don't think it's actually practiced when nobody's around to catch it on video. Just like the whole driving thing, Jill has talked about getting a speeding ticket while out driving to a birth or something.

Yeah, that was one of the season 2 episodes. I've been rewatching a bit on Netflix lately, and that was a very touching moment. And not at all hindered by dumb side hug rules, that I definitely think they play up for the cameras. I also seem to remember Gil Bates hugging Josiah properly when they came to visit once, but I might be misremembering that.

It's interesting to look back on season 2, though. At one point they sort of list who sleeps where, and show the younger girls in travel beds, but then another time they also show Johannah waking up in Jill's bed and Jackson both going to sleep and waking up in Jana's bed. I wouldn't want my younger brother to sleep in my bed at her age, but I guess she's more of a mom to him than a sister anyways. And it's not like that room would provide any privacy either way.

[freejoyannatoo]

Amish people do have higher instances of certain genetic disorders, such as dwarfism, unusual blood types, and metabolic disorders because they don't marry much outside the community. Same thing occurred with European royal families, since they really didn't want to marry commoners/royals they felt were beneath them -- a lot of people (nominally) running countries and empires in the 19th century were severely mentally and physically handicapped from genetic conditions caused by inbreeding.

Yes, I was visiting Queen Victoria's summer place a couple of weeks ago (Osborne House on the Isle of Wight, it's amazing) and pondering this. Her offspring were majorly responsible for spreading haemophilia throughout European royal families by marrying their cousins across Europe during the 19th century.

[NjoyingNsanity]

Yes, I was visiting Queen Victoria's summer place a couple of weeks ago (Osborne House on the Isle of Wight, it's amazing) and pondering this. Her offspring were majorly responsible for spreading haemophilia throughout European royal families by marrying their cousins across Europe during the 19th century.

It would take several generations of some pretty extreme inbreeding to cause the kinds of problems seen in European royalty. Queen Victoria wasn't even all that inbred when compared to the Habsburgs they were way worse. Poor King Carlos II of Spain was the result of 110 years of inbreeding. One of his grandmothers was simultaneously his aunt, the other grandmother was also his great-grandmother. His parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents were all first cousins or uncle married to niece, his parents DNA was more genetically similar than someone whose parents were siblings.

I don't think even the fundies would go there, but I could see them becoming more like the FLDS they have the same sort of paranoia all they need is the right charismatic leader and Gothard is getting up there in years and has had recent scandal, and Doug The Tool had his scandal so there is an opening. I could see someone like Josh going for that if his political aspirations don't pan out. I could also see Ben choosing to marry Jessa to make a name for himself with fundie royalty.

[freejoyannatoo]

Yes, poor man. So much for being king.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscienc ... -of-kings/

As you say, the Duggars et al are a long way from that level of inbreeding. Hopefully their whole way of life will have collapsed before there are any genetic problems for their offspring.

[alba]

Arranging marriages in infancy so kids know whom they can give pieces of their hearts to completely fits into their belief system. They're more concerned about shared religious beliefs than genuine affection or chemistry, and those religious beliefs are, of course, handed down from Daddy dearest, so it makes perfect sense for him to arrange the relationship from the start.

[Jay9]

What about Amish and similar communities - do they have genetic problems caused by inbreeding? Owning my lack of education in this area.

The problems in the Amish community caused by inbreeding are mostly hidden from public knowledge. They keep their mutant and sickly children locked up where they will never see the light of day. No one knows of these children, except when they happen to be near death, and I come across them in my job. I grew up in an Old Order Amish community ( we weren't Amish, but all the neighbors were). They marry their first cousins. It's a common thing. Our community only had 4 last names. They are all related after a couple generations. Our neighbors had 17 living children. Our neighbor came from a family of 11, his wife from a family of 14. Some of them left the Amish, but the ones that don't, marry their cousins, then their children marry more cousins. They all looked oddly similar, like the whole community came from the same parents. They don't have transportation, and don't have opportunities to ever meet anyone outside their community.

Your average fundie family is nowhere as strict as the Amish when it comes to marriage. As seen with the Duggars, they branch out. They don't all go to the same church or have the exact same beliefs. Unless they start becoming more extreme with their rules, I don't think inbreeding will become an issue like the with the Amish. Also, most females will not be having that many children. It might be ideal to people like the Duggars, but let's face it, most women are not that fertile (except the Amish lol).