All Things Doug Phillips & VF, Including Lourdes's Lawsuit

[Trynn]

I think there would have been a war even if the south had been allowed to secede. I mean, you'd have slaves escaping to the north constantly, and the north refusing to give them back...

I don't know. I guess we kinda had the same issue for Canada, but we already lost a war with them. I kinda feel like it would be different if the south had formed their own country...

I don't think a war could have been avoided AT ALL in that situation.

[CloakNDagger]

I think there would have been a war even if the south had been allowed to secede. I mean, you'd have slaves escaping to the north constantly, and the north refusing to give them back...

I don't know. I guess we kinda had the same issue for Canada, but we already lost a war with them. I kinda feel like it would be different if the south had formed their own country...

I don't think a war could have been avoided AT ALL in that situation.

I think otherwise. The North did have a manpower advantage, and the South, even during the actual war was with the rare exception of the Gettysburg campaign not interested or able to invade the North. I think a lot of slaves would have escaped northward and in combination with a constant drone about slavery being immoral would have started to fragment the unity of the slave owners. The war united them.

[ViolaSebastian]

I think otherwise. The North did have a manpower advantage, and the South, even during the actual war was with the rare exception of the Gettysburg campaign not interested or able to invade the North. I think a lot of slaves would have escaped northward and in combination with a constant drone about slavery being immoral would have started to fragment the unity of the slave owners. The war united them.

CloakNDagger, there *was* a constant drone about the immorality of slavery in the years leading up to the civil war. If you want, I can give you list upon list of anti-slavery books and pamphlets, but I don't want to bore the heck out of everyone. I'm sure that it doesn't need to be said that the media at the time wasn't nearly as pervasive as it is today, and messages were much harder to get out. If it was as simple as convincing everyone that slavery was wrong, it would have been abolished gradually.

[Trynn]

You wouldn't bore me, the topic interests me. I at Least would appreciate links.

Anyway, all this is a distraction from why I really popped in here: has Lourdes won her lawsuit yet?

[CloakNDagger]

Here's the thing. People tried the moral argument for years. Abolition forces produced books and treatises about how cruel and morally reprehensible the system of slavery and the slave trade was--and they are incredibly difficult to read and even harder to contemplate. As I mentioned before, there were a lot of churches that tried to further the abolition cause. Benjamin Franklin and Frederick Douglass, two of the most intelligent and learned men that America has ever produced tried to turn the tide of slavery on moral arguments--and it didn't work.

It also happens that the arguments of Charles Darwin were on the rise in the US at the time, which made it easier to believe that blacks were inferior.

Heck, they even tried to play up the race angle by using photographs of slave children that could pass as "white" (I use the quotation marks because race is a social concept) to play upon people's outrage. Surely the south would be upset to know that little blonde-haired, blue-eyed moppets were being bought and sold!? Many, many angles were tried--if you can think of it, that angle was used by abolitionists.

Yeah, but how much of that really reached the southerners down in South Carolina? I doubt that they heard much of it down there. I think most of what they heard was about Nat Turner's rebellion and such and were probably more insulated from the abolitionists - maybe I'm wrong on that. I suspect that the folks in Virginia who seemed to toy with ending slavery from time to time were closer and more likely to see the abolitionist material.

On a side note, I agree with you that race is a social concept. I personally think that every time I have to check a box as "Caucasian" it's a subtle reinforcement that I am different than someone who checks African American, or Korean, or whatever. Not to mention that if I have to check the box, I'd rather check "Polish" or "German-American" since there are so many different blends of "Caucasian." It's sad we STILL do this stuff.

Here's the harsh reality: slavery is an economic system. A deeply flawed and wrong one, but an economic system. Slavery was only abolished in the north and South America when it became economically advantageous to have other forms of labor--in both cases, immigrant labor. So you can't just hit at it with the moral angle--the financial one is always going to play a part and had to be addressed if war was to be avoided. It wasn't, because no one, anywhere, had an extra $3 billion lying around to buy the freedom of every slave.

So, no one had the extra $3B - but they were willing to spend half of that on the war, right? I absolutely think that the financial angle should have been hit - which is one reason I think the North should have let them go and then slapped major tariffs on all of their products and encouraged other countries to do so as well. I've mentioned that before.

As a side note, I have absolutely no pity for the south in regards to reconstruction. The south truly screwed the pooch when Booth killed Lincoln. Lincoln's plan for reconstruction wasn't nearly as harsh and punitive as the one that came under Johnson. Remember the famous story about how Lincoln had the band play Dixie? He offered pardons (with some notable exceptions) to any Confederate that would swear allegiance to the Union and the constitution, and pocket veteod the Wade-Davis Bill. But, unfortunately for the south, killing the president was a step too far, and the lust for retribution took over when Johnson did.

The South didn't kill Lincoln, Booth did and while I can understand the feelings, the reconstruction era was truly wrong and did a lot of damage.

Booth's actions were a move that I doubt could have been prevented, and I do believe it was a truly wrong and regrettable action. It's also wrong, though to blame the entire South for that.

[CloakNDagger]

Look, I think I'm done on this topic - I've said too much - mainly because I've actually enjoyed getting the different perspectives and data, but I've wasted a lot of valuable time on it that should have been spent on other things that are really a lot more urgent. I'm OK with y'all rebutting me and having the last word, 'cause in the end, I know I'm not a racist, the war is over, the South lost and deserved to IMO despite my dislike for things the North did in the process. It's time for me to move on about this. I can get along with my friends, clients, etc... of all backgrounds, skin colors, and perspectives and it's all good.

My last point is that you folks, unless some of you are posing - and that very well could be (I know some of y'all read here!) - weren't close enough to really understand some of what went on and I don't think it's fair for you to paint them all as willfully racist without understanding them and their position better. Think what you like, but just because one has certain political views, does NOT mean that they agree with racial slavery.

There are plenty of evils there, and I think I've done at least some of my part to expose them, but I think a lot of what you think was racism was actually stupid ignorance and kool-aid drinking, similar to all of the other kool-aid drinking going on in various other ways - like kissing up to Doug Phillips is a Tool and being fooled by all of the glitz and glamor and cool trips, and awesome vacations, and various favors, and not realizing that he was all the while using the useful idiots around him in various compartmentalized ways and having his fun on the side.

I still think it's kind of like KO said here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb7Qmf9GwY0 about our "Precious Puritans" - I think we elevated various "heroes" waaaaaay too much, and failed to realize how we sounded to other people. Dumb and dumber, and sad.

[ILoveJellybeans]

You wouldn't bore me, the topic interests me. I at Least would appreciate links.

Anyway, all this is a distraction from why I really popped in here: has Lourdes won her lawsuit yet?

I haven't heard anything more about it :/

I wonder how things are going.

[milkncookies76]

Here's the harsh reality: slavery is an economic system. A deeply flawed and wrong one, but an economic system. Slavery was only abolished in the north and South America when it became economically advantageous to have other forms of labor--in both cases, immigrant labor. So you can't just hit at it with the moral angle--the financial one is always going to play a part and had to be addressed if war was to be avoided. It wasn't, because no one, anywhere, had an extra $3 billion lying around to buy the freedom of every slave.

So, no one had the extra $3B - but they were willing to spend half of that on the war, right? I absolutely think that the financial angle should have been hit - which is one reason I think the North should have let them go and then slapped major tariffs on all of their products and encouraged other countries to do so as well. I've mentioned that before.

Oh Lordy. Yes, oh smart one, there WERE tariffs imposed on the south by the north prior to the war...and it didn't fix a damn thing! In fact, it may have played a role in the south succeeding when it did.

[formergothardite]

I've been meaning to address the Patrick Henry letter. CnD seems to think that these sorts of men were the key to ending slavery with no war, but I disagree. I think people like him were actually worse than the people who didn't think what they were doing was morally wrong. Henry knew better, he was just too lazy to care enough to free his slaves. It was inconvenient for him to free his slaves so never did, even in his will, even though he knew what he was doing was wrong. When you are dealing with people who agree that what they are doing is wrong but won't stop doing it, those are the hardest people to get to fight for change. These people will go with what is the most convenient for themselves even if they know what they are doing is totally repugnant to humanity and abominable(these are the words Henry used to describe slavery, yet he wouldn't free his slaves, even when he died because it was just too inconvenient.)

[fuglyexfundy]

I haven't heard anything more about it :/

I wonder how things are going.

It seems that DPIATR might have dropped off the face of the earth. I heard, though, he still lives in the S.A. metropolitan area. Maybe he's cooking up a new business or returned to law practice? IDK...I refuse to wade through tiresome blogs that have a track record of offering misinformation, so I haven't seen much real information out there.

I'm not familiar with the Texas court system, but does anyone know how long it might be before the case gets underway? Would we even know if a settlement was reached? Maybe he'll resurface be at Jasmine Baucham's wedding. :think:

[bea]

Anyone following Beall or any of the rest on FB? What's Perry doing now?

[fuglyexfundy]

Wasn't this around the time of year the VF catalog used to be released. It's strange not being able to snark on that this upcoming holiday season. Say what you want, but Beall and the tool could take some snazzy pics and market...Market...MARKET! Sounds exploitative, but she could probably use the work right now....but then again, I know what horrible things she and the tool stands for, so...nah.

[Coco]

Anyone following Beall or any of the rest on FB? What's Perry doing now?

:D They're still into cosplay.

At least this time it's more respectful. And she makes a point of saying the girls raised their own funds to keep the promise they made to the service men to return.

gallery: operationmeatball.squarespace.com/gallery/xw467of47xym7pf92lptkkztcg5mez

blog: operationmeatball.squarespace.com/new-girlblog/

(these were put up less than a day ago by Beall on FB, not sure why it took so long after the d-day anniversary)

[Coco]

Wasn't this around the time of year the VF catalog used to be released. It's strange not being able to snark on that this upcoming holiday season. Say what you want, but Beall and the tool could take some snazzy pics and market...Market...MARKET! Sounds exploitative, but she could probably use the work right now....but then again, I know what horrible things she and the tool stands for, so...nah.

i just found my 2011 copy yesterday. I thought i'd pitched it ages ago. :lol: Fun to look through but the creepy factor went up by 1000x.

[fuglyexfundy]

:D They're still into cosplay.

At least this time it's more respectful. And she makes a point of saying the girls raised their own funds to keep the promise they made to the service men to return.

truly self-funded, nevermind, and kudos.

Maybe I'm a lazy parent, but international flights with kids bites the big one. I know most of her kids are teens/adults, but I salute Beall for flying and/or paying for 8 kids internationally. I hated doing that with two munchkins under age 10.

[lilith]

Anyone following Beall or any of the rest on FB? What's Perry doing now?

Perry is having an existential crisis, posting articles questioning things like the purity movement and legalism then back pedalling all over the place when people like the McDonalds and other VF types defend VF style fundiedom. He's still a hardcore Calvinist (lucky, since he named a son after him)

Apart from that he's travelling for work, posting libertarian propaganda with a bent towards gun rights and marijuana legalisation, working out, watching sports, drinking beer and whiskey (and maybe smoking reefers, if the libertarian memes are anything to go by) and watching Kim gestate number 11 while she makes him sandwiches.

He's stuck in limbo between VF world and the real world and he seems to be finding it hard.

He's posted some things critical of VF and it's demise, so indirectly critical of Doug, but he still "likes" Doug's Instagram posts.

Speaking of Doug's Instagram, as apparently it's gone private and most of you don't have access, he's gone from "likes" in the thousands and comments in the hundreds to under 50 "likes" for the latest pics or precocious Virginia and less than a dozen comments, 90% from immediate family.

[lilith]

Anyone following Beall or any of the rest on FB? What's Perry doing now?

Perry is having an existential crisis, posting articles questioning things like the purity movement and legalism then back pedalling all over the place when people like the McDonalds and other VF types defend VF style fundiedom. He's still a hardcore Calvinist (lucky, since he named a son after him)

Apart from that he's travelling for work, posting libertarian propaganda with a bent towards gun rights and marijuana legalisation, working out, watching sports, drinking beer and whiskey (and maybe smoking reefers, if the libertarian memes are anything to go by) and watching Kim gestate number 11 while she makes him sandwiches.

He's stuck in limbo between VF world and the real world and he seems to be finding it hard.

He's posted some things critical of VF and it's demise, so indirectly critical of Doug, but he still "likes" Doug's Instagram posts.

Speaking of Doug's Instagram, as apparently it's gone private and most of you don't have access, he's gone from "likes" in the thousands and comments in the hundreds to under 50 "likes" for the latest pics or precocious Virginia and less than a dozen comments, 90% from immediate family.

[kjrsg]

Does anyone have any further information about Jen's Gem's/TW Eston? I vaguely remember someone saying a while back that she was involved in a lawsuit.

[PhiMuLady]

DP still posts sporatically on Instagram - mostly pics of his kids but there was a pic posted about three weeks ago of himself and Beall.

[Coco]

Jen's daughter was going through a rough time in the spring, but i don't remember the details well enough to say more. Here's her public facebook page if you'd like to keep up to date with her: facebook.com/Jensgems?fref=ts

[nelliebelle1197]

I just want to address this before it comes up--I tried to edit my post but it was too late. Jefferson did, in fact, free some of his slaves. Two were freed during his lifetime, three left Monticello with Jefferson's consent, and three were freed in his will. However, all of the slaves had the same last name: Hemmings. Aside from Sally Hemmings, their mother, there is substantial evidence (including genetic, although some will tell you that the children were fathered by Jefferson's brother, which I think is total B.S.) that the slaves Jefferson chose to free were in fact his own children and grandchildren.

It should be noted the other two-hundred slaves were sold at a real-estate auction after his death to pay off his considerable debts.

Two not-so-fun facts: Sally Hemmings had the same father as Jefferson's wife, making them half-sisters. What a difference in fortune. And just to tie it back into the purpose of free jinger, the Mormon church chose to not only baptize Hemmings and Jefferson, but also have them married--in 2012. Which is all sorts of creepy.

Doesn't more recent evidence contend that the Hemmings were Jefferson's nephew's children?

You have made really good arguments about the north and slavery. Slavery was not economically viable for the cash crops in the north nor for the burgeoning manufacturing sector. Slaves were too expensive for the small farms that dominated the north and it was cheaper to employ poor whites at low wages in the factories.

Just a note on France and Great Britain- both refused to enter the war on the side of the Confederacy - despite Davis' repeated manipulations and advances - because of public opinion on SLAVERY - moreso in Britan than France -even though a Confederate victory would have been advantageous politically and economically advantageous, especially for France, which wanted both cotton and Mexico. History does not lie. Revisions of history do.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Doesn't more recent evidence contend that the Hemmings were Jefferson's nephew's children?

You have made really good arguments about the north and slavery. Slavery was not economically viable for the cash crops in the north nor for the burgeoning manufacturing sector. Slaves were too expensive for the small farms that dominated the north and it was cheaper to employ poor whites at low wages in the factories.

Just a note on France and Great Britain- both refused to enter the war on the side of the Confederacy - despite Davis' repeated manipulations and advances - because of public opinion on SLAVERY - moreso in Britan than France -even though a Confederate victory would have been advantageous politically and economically advantageous, especially for France, which wanted both cotton and Mexico. History does not lie. Revisions of history do.

I don't know if it's more recent evidence, but the controversy is one of long standing. I went to UVA and in my honors history seminar, we actually had a whole lecture on the facts vs. the mythology of the Hemings-Jefferson controversy - complete with 300+ pages of reading. Back when Jefferson was still alive, the family stated that the Carr nephews had fathered at least 1 or 2 of the Hemings children (and they still haven't been ruled out.) The DNA tests which were done and which are cited as "proof" of Jefferson's affair with Hemings actually just narrowed the field. The DNA tests found that 1 of 25 possible suspects fathered Sally Hemings' youngest son. It's known that Hemings was at Monticello and that Jefferson was not during the times when at least some of her children would have been conceived so we know he didn't father them all, but there is still a possibility that Jefferson(or one of his relatives) fathered some of them.

Edited because apparently I can't spell when I type while eating lunch.

[Howl]

Back to the legal aspects of Lourdes' lawsuit -- was it filed in Boerne (Kendall County) or San Antonio (Bexar County)?

Any way to find out the date for any movement on the lawsuit?

[GenerationCedarchip]

Back to the legal aspects of Lourdes' lawsuit -- was it filed in Boerne (Kendall County) or San Antonio (Bexar County)?

Any way to find out the date for any movement on the lawsuit?

I checked online. The suit is filed in Bexar County. However the only thing I can get from records online is that the case is still pending. I looked at the case info, and the last activity is back in May when the defendants all filed their answers. I can't see where the case has been set for trial yet - maybe something will get posted on the support page for Lourdes over at FB or on Nolan Manteufel's page.

[socalrules]

Lawsuits move extremely slow. I don't practice in whatever state they are in, since I am on the west coast, but if it is anything like here, the most you will see is a status conference every few months before the court for an update on the case. Likely the status conference will only last a few minutes and the court will here if the parties have progressed to written or oral discovery, and if they anything needs to be brought to the court's attention. Then the court will set another date to come back again. If the court sets a trial date it is not set in stone, it is more of just a place holder. The court's website will not contain much information on the case such as whether the parties have attempted to mediate or whether discovery is in progress. We will never get that kind of information. Unless someone on the inside gives sneaks out information, it will be very hard to learn anything about what is going on.