Jill Duggar and Derick Dillard Engaged! - Part 2

[FJismyheadship]

Maybe she said "how fertile we is" and the author heard "how fertility is" and added the our because "how fertility is" makes no sense.

[Palimpsest]

I think of the point being made was that sometimes when a very fundie couple adopts an older child from a third world country they end up sending them back because they cannot conform. It's sadly a very real aspect of fundie adoption.

Thinking more on the whole 'will they all remain fundie and have a zillion kids' aspect. I have an aunt who is a sort of catholic fundie. VERY conservative, modest, similar in a lot of ways to a lot of the fundie families we discuss here. She had 9 children. Out of those 9, seven of them are now adults. Only one is married (age 31) and has only one child. The others are 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29 and all went to college and have careers. Its really interesting to me because neither my aunt or uncle even finished college (uncle never went). So sometimes kids do end up taking their own route. (all the kids are still very religious however).

ITA with the bolded. International adoption is ethically tricky at the best of times due to child trafficking and adoptions under false pretences. Hisey's post sounds quite naive especially considering the recent publicity over Hana Alemu and so many others. The Evangelical surge in adoptions from overseas has caused a whole lot of tragic situations.

Required reading for "rescuers" like Jill -- and everyone considering international adoption for that matter -- should be Kathryn Joyce's The Child Catchers.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Child-Catcher ... roduct_top

If you want to get even more depressed take a look at Poundpuplegacy.org and search international adoptions there including Williams, Schatz and Barbour. Perhaps life in a decent loving orphanage in a developing country is better than death or permanent injury from Fundie adopters using Pearl methods.

ETA. And what Toothfairy said!

[stardust]

I can't be the only one who's realized how hypocritical JB and Michelle have been about "accepting God's blessings." She and JB are obviously trying to get pregnant and I'm sorry but in my view that isn't any different from using birth control. BC actively prevents pregnancy and taking hormones or even having sex during ovulation to maximize chances of getting pregnant is NOT letting God have control over the size of your family.

The truth of the matter is that Michelle collects babies. I was watching the episode where they are getting rid of hoarded items and when coming across a pair of baby shoes, Michelle went absolutely nuts. She was moaning about how she missed having a baby in the house and that's just not right. It must be so distressing that her little preemie baby has grown into an average sized child and she has no one left to change diapers and feed breastmilk to. Michelle is 47 years old and most women her age would be glad that their teenagers or young adult children are out of their hair. Up until Josie she had been pregnant every year since she married Jim Bob she feels like she HAS to be pregnant because that's what she's used to. This woman has a mental illness and I hope to God that Jill or any of her other daughters will not end up like her.

[Toothfairy]

I can't be the only one who's realized how hypocritical JB and Michelle have been about "accepting God's blessings." She and JB are obviously trying to get pregnant and I'm sorry but in my view that isn't any different from using birth control. BC actively prevents pregnancy and taking hormones or even having sex during ovulation to maximize chances of getting pregnant is NOT letting God have control over the size of your family.

The truth of the matter is that Michelle collects babies. I was watching the episode where they are getting rid of hoarded items and when coming across a pair of baby shoes, Michelle went absolutely nuts. She was moaning about how she missed having a baby in the house and that's just not right. It must be so distressing that her little preemie baby has grown into an average sized child and she has no one left to change diapers and feed breastmilk to. Michelle is 47 years old and most women her age would be glad that their teenagers or young adult children are out of their hair. Up until Josie she had been pregnant every year since she married Jim Bob she feels like she HAS to be pregnant because that's what she's used to. This woman has a mental illness and I hope to God that Jill or any of her other daughters will not end up like her.

Michelle doesn't even take care of her babies. After six months they're off to their sister moms. I think michelle does have emotional problems going on and having babies was her way to cope. I think she feels guilty over her miscarriage of her first child. I also think Jim Bob and that quack doctor blame her because she used birth control and sinned. Now she needs another activity to help her cope. Joining Gothard didn't help, she needs professional help.

[lizziesmom]

Jill and her bf look cute together. I hope Bob won't try to brainwash him and stay out of their relationship.

Too late for that. He's the one who brought them together in the first place.

[pega127]

Still no info on a registry for Jill and Derrick?

[ViolaSebastian]

Still no info on a registry for Jill and Derrick?

I checked out all the 'usual suspects' for wedding registries and couldn't find any--but I would guess given her highly public image, they chose to put them under different names so that no stalkers would send them presents off the list.

[HereticHick]

My first guess as to a wedding registry alias for Derick would be something related to the name of the mascot he played at Oklahoma State University-- Pistol Pete

[LogansMama]

My first guess as to a wedding registry alias for Derick would be something related to the name of the mascot he played at Oklahoma State University-- Pistol Pete

hubba hubba (sorry, my mind totally went into the gutter)

[J'ean Skirt]

It's not like the media isn't known for doctoring or completely making up quotes/sources.

This!

Just recently a news article quoted something I'd written in a blog post. But the quote used "bisky said..." rather than "bisky wrote." That was a little weird. And I got people congratulating me on getting interviewed by the news. Um. No. They didn't talk to me.

Not that it's the same thing, but just that news is a weird kettle of fish.

[gustava]

If Jill and Derrick do become missionaries, they might wait before "popping out" blessings.

[LogansMama]

If Jill and Derrick do become missionaries, they might wait before "popping out" blessings.

You would think...but doesn't that go against everything they've been taught (indoctrinated?)?

[leftcoastmama]

If Jill and Derrick do become missionaries, they might wait before "popping out" blessings.

That would be nice, but there are plenty of missionaries who pop out kids and take them along around the world. there are also those that leave their kids behind to be taken care of by family or at special schools while they trot about "serving God"

[twinmama]

I can't see any Duggar using birth control. I can maybe see a very brave one doing NFP or mysteriously getting a headache at the right time of the month (and hoping she has an understanding husband, not an entitled fundie lunatic). Maybe. If anyone is going to do NFP and make it work though, it's probably Jill. I hope she had to learn all about reproductive systems, like actual science/biology and not whatever madness the Duggars probably teach them, as part of her midwife training. Someone should send her Taking Charge of Your Fertility.

[anti-antichoice]

You would think...but doesn't that go against everything they've been taught (indoctrinated?)?

You might be surprised, people (especially extremely religious people) can pretty much always find a way to justify their actions. One day Jill could just say that because she's doing missionary work it's okay to put off having children because it would prevent her from pursuing God's plan in her life.

[DuggarTime]

Yes. It's much better to have a childhood of unrelenting poverty, disease and hunger, than to experience Jill Duggar's imperfect parenting. Plus, abuse never happens in orphanages.

Plus, there's no way that some adopted kid from overseas can overcome Gothard's teachings as an adult. It's much better for him to face a lifetime in a third world country with no connections, family and little education. That means, quite possibly, a life of chronic unemployment, menial labor, prostitution or worse, but that's the best choice.

I get what you're saying, Hisey, and I do agree with some parts. Overall though I would say maybe it would be better to be raised by Jill & Derek. There IS usually better medical care available in America, and, once they are 18 they could choose their own lifestyles. I don't really think that just because the child is adopted they can not choose once the are 18. Good points though!

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

You would think...but doesn't that go against everything they've been taught (indoctrinated?)?

Only Jill was raised ATI. Derick is just Baptist. He attended public school and college and all that stuff. Jill is the only one that has to "overcome brainwashing" (I'm sure she already has); and ATI says that it's the husband who makes decisions, so if there is any brainwashing to overcome, she can just fall back on "it's the headship's decision."

[paganhomeschooler]

I get what you're saying, Hisey, and I do agree with some parts. Overall though I would say maybe it would be better to be raised by Jill & Derek. There IS usually better medical care available in America, and, once they are 18 they could choose their own lifestyles. I don't really think that just because the child is adopted they can not choose once the are 18. Good points though!

I think Hisey was being sarcastic to lascuba. ;) At least, that's the way I had read it.

[lascuba]

Yes. It's much better to have a childhood of unrelenting poverty, disease and hunger, than to experience Jill Duggar's imperfect parenting. Plus, abuse never happens in orphanages.

Plus, there's no way that some adopted kid from overseas can overcome Gothard's teachings as an adult. It's much better for him to face a lifetime in a third world country with no connections, family and little education. That means, quite possibly, a life of chronic unemployment, menial labor, prostitution or worse, but that's the best choice.

Oooh, are we playing the "Of course all 'Third World' Countries are Hellholes and Everyone There Would be so Much Better Off in Amurrika" game?! Cuz my third world origins ass loves that! Never mind that it is well established that a huge percentage of "orphans" given away in international adoptions aren't actually orphans, but have at least one parent or relatives who want to care for those children. Never mind that families are frequently lied to about what exactly they're doing when they turn their children over to these agencies--many of them have on idea that they will permanently lose their children. Never mind that many profit driven international adoption agencies not only essentially kidnap children, they don't vet adoptive parents properly, and they don't inform them of problems the children might have. Never mind that there is zero federal oversight of these adoptions, which means that these children--taken from their families and cultures and brought to a new country to live with strangers who expect gratitude for their "good work"--have no where to turn. Adoptive parents can do anything, even post on online groups to rehome children they can't handle as if they were dogs, and those kids are shit out of luck.

Are those problems exclusive to fundies? Hell no, which is why I'm iffy on international adoptions in general and would like to see countries make it more difficult to adopt their children. But take all those problems and add in all we know about fundamentalism and Gothardism. Let's place children with a couple who won't allow them to see needed therapists because they don't believe in that. Let's place them in a belief system that doesn't allow for--that actively punishes--individuality, that insists that beating children is the only way to save them. Let's just ignore all we know about this lifestyle for the sake of baseless optimism and have a woefully undereducated and kool-aid drinking woman and a man who actually contacted JIM BOB DUGGAR to be his PRAYER PARTNER attempt to raise these children. Yeah, it'll be just fine. Because anything's better than growing up poor in a Third World country.

Sure. Okay.

[Mama Mia]

Oooh, are we playing the "Of course all 'Third World' Countries are Hellholes and Everyone There Would be so Much Better Off in Amurrika" game?! Cuz my third world origins ass loves that! Never mind that it is well established that a huge percentage of "orphans" given away in international adoptions aren't actually orphans, but have at least one parent or relatives who want to care for those children. Never mind that families are frequently lied to about what exactly they're doing when they turn their children over to these agencies--many of them have on idea that they will permanently lose their children. Never mind that many profit driven international adoption agencies not only essentially kidnap children, they don't vet adoptive parents properly, and they don't inform them of problems the children might have. Never mind that there is zero federal oversight of these adoptions, which means that these children--taken from their families and cultures and brought to a new country to live with strangers who expect gratitude for their "good work"--have no where to turn. Adoptive parents can do anything, even post on online groups to rehome children they can't handle as if they were dogs, and those kids are shit out of luck.

Are those problems exclusive to fundies? Hell no, which is why I'm iffy on international adoptions in general and would like to see countries make it more difficult to adopt their children. But take all those problems and add in all we know about fundamentalism and Gothardism. Let's place children with a couple who won't allow them to see needed therapists because they don't believe in that. Let's place them in a belief system that doesn't allow for--that actively punishes--individuality, that insists that beating children is the only way to save them. Let's just ignore all we know about this lifestyle for the sake of baseless optimism and have a woefully undereducated and kool-aid drinking woman and a man who actually contacted JIM BOB DUGGAR to be his PRAYER PARTNER attempt to raise these children. Yeah, it'll be just fine. Because anything's better than growing up poor in a Third World country.

Sure. Okay.

I think it's kind of a stretch to imply that someone saying they wouldn't want to see a child growing up in, for example, an Eastern European orphanage, is the same as any child growing up in a third-world country is disadvantaged.

[lascuba]

"It's much better for him to face a lifetime in a third world country with no connections, family and little education. That means, quite possibly, a life of chronic unemployment, menial labor, prostitution or worse, but that's the best choice."

It's not a stretch at all. She's very deliberately equating "Third World" with no education, unemployment, menial labor, and prostitution. Because there aren't huge swatches in the US where those issues are endemic, apparently. Or it's better to experience those things here because America is magic or something.

And for the record, if someone is living under those conditions, I think it makes it infinitely worse to be taken from their culture, their language, and everyone they know to live with religiously fanatical, abusive dim wits.

[Ralar]

A duggar leghumper posted this on twitter tonight:

Jill's skirt is horrific. Maybe it would be okay paired with a sheer, fancy top for a dressier occasion, but it really does not work with a t-shirt.

[Mama Mia]

"It's much better for him to face a lifetime in a third world country with no connections, family and little education. That means, quite possibly, a life of chronic unemployment, menial labor, prostitution or worse, but that's the best choice."

It's not a stretch at all. She's very deliberately equating "Third World" with no education, unemployment, menial labor, and prostitution. Because there aren't huge swatches in the US where those issues are endemic, apparently. Or it's better to experience those things here because America is magic or something.

And for the record, if someone is living under those conditions, I think it makes it infinitely worse to be taken from their culture, their language, and everyone they know to live with religiously fanatical, abusive dim wits.

I could be wrong, and I don't have a dog in this fight, but I really read that line as referring to children raised in orphanages, not just any poor [*]child in a third-world country.

And of course those same issues apply to children coming out of foster care in the U.S., which has an abominably high percentage of teens going from foster care to homelessness, although fortunately services are beginning to improve for young adults as they leave the system.

[*]eta: I feel I need to explain the use of the word " poor" to mean only children living in poverty, not that all children in third-world countries are poor.

[church_of_dog]

I can't see any Duggar using birth control. I can maybe see a very brave one doing NFP or mysteriously getting a headache at the right time of the month (and hoping she has an understanding husband, not an entitled fundie lunatic).

No need for a headache. There are other options besides PIV. To be blunt, I've never heard of a man rejecting a blow job. :wink-kitty: Considering that there are only a few days each month when this would be a concern, it seems entirely doable if they (or even just she) pay attention to her cycle. And are relaxed enough sexually to have that be a comfortable option.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

The new edition of People has an article on the courting couples. Jill apparently had a 4 page questionnaire ready for Derick on one of their first Skype chats that included questions such as whether he drinks or smokes, how many kids he wants, etc, etc. She's pretty clear that they want to leave pregnancies up to god, and adopt. So I can't fathom there will be any waiting. It also says they plan to marry in the next few months.

Also, Ben's dad does auto glass repair. It has to be decent money because he supports the whole family of 9.

There wasn't much else we don't already know, but I did catch a snarky undertone about how engagement means holding hands is okay.