Jill Duggar and Derick Dillard Engaged! - Part 2

[16strong]

I keep seeing Derick's name and mentally changing it to Duck Mallard. lol.

[Fourcard5]

A duggar leghumper posted this on twitter tonight:

[attachment=0]image.jpg[/attachment]

Jill's skirt is horrific. Maybe it would be okay paired with a sheer, fancy top for a dressier occasion, but it really does not work with a t-shirt.

That is ugly. It looks like Erin shower curtain. Give it back, looks better in the bathroom.

[FloraDoraDolly]

"It's much better for him to face a lifetime in a third world country with no connections, family and little education. That means, quite possibly, a life of chronic unemployment, menial labor, prostitution or worse, but that's the best choice."

It's not a stretch at all. She's very deliberately equating "Third World" with no education, unemployment, menial labor, and prostitution. Because there aren't huge swatches in the US where those issues are endemic, apparently. Or it's better to experience those things here because America is magic or something.

And for the record, if someone is living under those conditions, I think it makes it infinitely worse to be taken from their culture, their language, and everyone they know to live with religiously fanatical, abusive dim wits.

We're not talking about all "Third World" kids here. Or all "Second World" Eastern European kids. We're talking about particular families where the situation is so dire that the parents cannot take care of their own children. There also aren't any extended family members with the resources to care for these children. Nobody puts their kids in an orphanage or hands them over to foreign strangers unless they're absolutely desperate. Some of these kids are literally starving. For some of these families, economic and humanitarian aid is probably a better solution than international adoption. But in other families, this simply is not feasible. I saw a family on TV where AIDS had wiped out an entire generation, leaving one sickly grandma to raise several grandchildren on her own. I've also read that Eastern European parents don't leave their kids in orphanages simply because they are poor. There's almost always something else going on-- domestic violence, drug abuse, incest, prostitution, physical or mental illness. No, the kids aren't orphans, but they shouldn't have to spend their entire childhoods rotting away in an orphanage while their parents take years to get their sht together, if they ever do. Ditto for American kids in the foster care system.

That being said, I think adoptive parents should be screened more carefully. They should have to go through a licensed, reputable agency that offers follow-up services. As for Jill and Derick, I cannot say if they should or shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child someday. They should be screened the same as everyone else. It isn't fair to say that Jill shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child because her parents are whackos. We don't know what her life will be like in three or five or ten years down the road. But I can't imagine her being a lot like Michelle-- she isn't like her now.

[crazyforkate]

It's always good to see a Duggar leave the nest, even if it's a lifestyle similar to before. At least she will have some marginal say in how her life is run. Better than just being one of a bunch of perpetual Cinderellas.

[nellautumngirl]

Jill has a gentle, sunny personality, she seems patient and reasonable especially around small children (exhibit A: Jenny) Michelle doesn't have any of those qualities. I know she has been taught to spank, but I can't see her doing it often, maybe a slap on the wrist or butt if a child misbehaves. Any child adopted by her or born to her and Derick will have a better life than she herself had, I'm sure of it. At least their children won't have two crazy narcissists as parents.

[lascuba]

We're not talking about all "Third World" kids here. Or all "Second World" Eastern European kids. We're talking about particular families where the situation is so dire that the parents cannot take care of their own children. There also aren't any extended family members with the resources to care for these children. Nobody puts their kids in an orphanage or hands them over to foreign strangers unless they're absolutely desperate. Some of these kids are literally starving. For some of these families, economic and humanitarian aid is probably a better solution than international adoption. But in other families, this simply is not feasible. I saw a family on TV where AIDS had wiped out an entire generation, leaving one sickly grandma to raise several grandchildren on her own. I've also read that Eastern European parents don't leave their kids in orphanages simply because they are poor. There's almost always something else going on-- domestic violence, drug abuse, incest, prostitution, physical or mental illness. No, the kids aren't orphans, but they shouldn't have to spend their entire childhoods rotting away in an orphanage while their parents take years to get their sht together, if they ever do. Ditto for American kids in the foster care system.

That being said, I think adoptive parents should be screened more carefully. They should have to go through a licensed, reputable agency that offers follow-up services. As for Jill and Derick, I cannot say if they should or shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child someday. They should be screened the same as everyone else. It isn't fair to say that Jill shouldn't be allowed to adopt a child because her parents are whackos. We don't know what her life will be like in three or five or ten years down the road. But I can't imagine her being a lot like Michelle-- she isn't like her now.

The red: That's actually not true across the board. In many places people are told that orphanages are temporary situations they can safely leave their children until they're situation has improved enough to care for them. And they believe that when they consent for their children to go overseas with another family it's an exchange program of sorts, an opportunity to gt an education so they can can return home and help their families.

The blue:That's they whole point of my original post...we don't know that. Adoption agencies are for profit. Children are a hot commodity for those who want them but don't want to go through the red tape of a domestic adoption. There have been so many accounts of babies and children being kidnapped and given to American couples with some sob story about how tragic their life was in their country. Account after account of families being lied to about what exactly their agreeing to when they agree to send their children to the US. Fundie agencies are even worse, and as long as Jill and Derrick are immersed in that world, that's the type of agency they'll use. He's a missionary and she wants to be one--you don't get anymore White Savior Complex than that. It won't even occur to them to ask these questions, they're that ignorant. In their view, it's Third World Country=Poverty=Misery=We're Doing a Wonderful Thing by Adopting this Child. Good intentions? Probably. But that doesn't count for shit.

[singsingsing]

Jill will probably be pregnant by the end of the year. There is a very real possibility that 'GrandDuggar #4' could result from Jill rather than Anna.

[nausicaa]

No need for a headache. There are other options besides PIV. To be blunt, I've never heard of a man rejecting a blow job. :wink-kitty: Considering that there are only a few days each month when this would be a concern, it seems entirely doable if they (or even just she) pay attention to her cycle. And are relaxed enough sexually to have that be a comfortable option.

I didn't think oral sex was kosher in fundie land?

[Ralar]

I didn't think oral sex was kosher in fundie land?

It probably is not. Orthodox Jews do not engage in BJs because the man might "spill his seed." Man on woman oral is okay though, ((because there is no seed to spill).

[church_of_dog]

I didn't think oral sex was kosher in fundie land?

I have no idea about the answer to this question, but I am enjoying seeing those three phrases all together in one sentence -- I'm sure that doesn't happen often… :lol:

[twinmama]

The new edition of People has an article on the courting couples. Jill apparently had a 4 page questionnaire ready for Derick on one of their first Skype chats that included questions such as whether he drinks or smokes, how many kids he wants, etc, etc. She's pretty clear that they want to leave pregnancies up to god, and adopt. So I can't fathom there will be any waiting. It also says they plan to marry in the next few months.

Also, Ben's dad does auto glass repair. It has to be decent money because he supports the whole family of 9.

There wasn't much else we don't already know, but I did catch a snarky undertone about how engagement means holding hands is okay.

How is anyone that is having child after child (presumably) going to have time or the inclination to adopt?? Good god, can you imagine if each time it took Michelle more than a few months to conceive, she adopted a child?

[medimus]

Adoption agencies are allowed to be for profit :o :shock: !! Bloody hell. And I thought it was bad enough that healthcare was allowed to be for profit. No wonder there are so many horror stories. Good grief.

I've always wondered why it seemed to be so much easier to adopt there than her. Though I must admit my view could be totally wrong as it comes purely from blogs and tv. I just know that here everyone goes through the same 'agency' (a government thing) and then you choose a waiting list to go on (once you've been approved of course) either domestic or one international country that has been vetted and completely approved. If there is any whiff of shenanigans in a country then that country gets struck off the list.

The current waiting lists are between 5 and 15 years long and all adoptions are closed.

For profit!! I can't even...

[ShesCrafty]

It probably is not. Orthodox Jews do not engage in BJs because the man might "spill his seed." Man on woman oral is okay though, ((because there is no seed to spill).

And so my hunt for a nice, orthodox jewish man begins... ;)

[Palimpsest]

Adoption agencies are allowed to be for profit :o :shock: !! Bloody hell. And I thought it was bad enough that healthcare was allowed to be for profit. No wonder there are so many horror stories. Good grief.

I've always wondered why it seemed to be so much easier to adopt there than her. Though I must admit my view could be totally wrong as it comes purely from blogs and tv. I just know that here everyone goes through the same 'agency' (a government thing) and then you choose a waiting list to go on (once you've been approved of course) either domestic or one international country that has been vetted and completely approved. If there is any whiff of shenanigans in a country then that country gets struck off the list.

The current waiting lists are between 5 and 15 years long and all adoptions are closed.

For profit!! I can't even...

Yes, adoption is big business, a lot of money changes hands, and there are unscrupulous people all over the world engaged in child trafficking.

I'm wondering where "here" is. My guess is Scandinavia or Finland? They have better safeguards and, I believe, only allow adoptions from countries that are Hague Convention signatories. The Hague Convention is a well-meaning attempt to institute ethical adoption policies world-wide and increase oversight.

I'm not against all intercountry adoptions. I think there is a good case to be made for those parents who cannot have children themselves and it can be wonderful for special needs children.

I am very much against the Fundie "adopt children for Christ" movement and the baby collectors. Many of these people have no intention of respecting the cultural heritage of the children they are adopting. They just want to beat their version of Christianity into them to save them for Jesus. As Lascuba said, White Savior Complex.

Jill Duggar bids fair to be a good example of one of those sentimental Fundie adopters and child collectors however sweet, maternal and well-meaning she seems. She is badly informed about the realities and should not be considering adoption yet. Some of these people who want to "rescue" children through intercountry adoption would do much better to donate to organizations in developing countries who are working on family building and extended family supporting initiatives.

Many recent abuse and homicide cases have caused some countries to close international adoptions completely, or slow down the process for all adoptive parents to increase safeguards and background checks. Unfortunately, any movements towards adoption reform in the USA, and greater oversight of families after adoption is complete, are met with huge opposition from pro-adoption advocates and a powerful Evangelical Christian lobby. Efforts towards adoption reform are also hampered by naïve people, including some here on FJ, who want to praise all intercountry adoptions and are not informed about the issues.

[clarinetpower]

Maybe they will do all names that rhyme with Jill and Dill. Bill. Will.

Here's some inspiration:

qyNFJ8ObVMg

[FloraDoraDolly]

Jill has a gentle, sunny personality, she seems patient and reasonable especially around small children (exhibit A: Jenny) Michelle doesn't have any of those qualities. I know she has been taught to spank, but I can't see her doing it often, maybe a slap on the wrist or butt if a child misbehaves. Any child adopted by her or born to her and Derick will have a better life than she herself had, I'm sure of it. At least their children won't have two crazy narcissists as parents.

Jennifer really lucked out in the buddy lottery when she got Jill. Jennifer is such a sensitive child. I don't think Jessa or Jinger would have been so patient with her. I think Jennifer would have been OK with Jana, but Jana already had Jackson while Jill already had James. It would be too much to expect one older sister to keep up with both of those boys. Well, it's too much to expect those girls to raise their siblings in the first place. But the little ones probably received better care from Jill and Jana than they would have if Michelle had raised them herself.

[pega127]

You would think...but doesn't that go against everything they've been taught (indoctrinated?)?

...and Jill seems very "excited" ;)

[Katydid]

I think of the point being made was that sometimes when a very fundie couple adopts an older child from a third world country they end up sending them back because they cannot conform. It's sadly a very real aspect of fundie adoption.

Thinking more on the whole 'will they all remain fundie and have a zillion kids' aspect. I have an aunt who is a sort of catholic fundie. VERY conservative, modest, similar in a lot of ways to a lot of the fundie families we discuss here. She had 9 children. Out of those 9, seven of them are now adults. Only one is married (age 31) and has only one child. The others are 19, 21, 23, 25, 27 and 29 and all went to college and have careers. Its really interesting to me because neither my aunt or uncle even finished college (uncle never went). So sometimes kids do end up taking their own route. (all the kids are still very religious however).

Education tends to be stressed in the Catholic Church, and being single is considered a vocation in and of itself, even if one does enter religious life. I think that the lack of respect for single life is a *big* problem in the fundamentalist world. One can be Christian and not want to be married. That was, actually, what Paul recommended.

[elsabee]

Education tends to be stressed in the Catholic Church, and being single is considered a vocation in and of itself, even if one does enter religious life. I think that the lack of respect for single life is a *big* problem in the fundamentalist world. One can be Christian and not want to be married. That was, actually, what Paul recommended.

Although, of course, Paul was an arse. Least favorite apostle by far.

[Sailing on Europa]

Derick's mom went to college? And he went to public school and college? So what if he supports public school for his kids and Jill wants to homeschool them? What if he supports his daughters going to college but Jill doesn't? I'm kind of surprised Jimbob approved this guy.

[Katydid]

Although, of course, Paul was an arse. Least favorite apostle by far.

Yes, definitely agreed, but considering fundies seem to consider what Paul said to be more important than what Jesus said, you might think they'd pay a bit of attention to that aspect as well.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Yes, definitely agreed, but considering fundies seem to consider what Paul said to be more important than what Jesus said, you might think they'd pay a bit of attention to that aspect as well.

Fundies don't actually read the bible themselves. They read what they are told to read. Otherwise they wouldn't be against abortion for "biblical reasons" after reading Numbers 5:11-27.

[tralala]

That's a happy little verse right there that didn't chill me straight to the bone~.

Oh thank god I live in the times I do now. To be so mistrusted and mistreated sounds horrifying.

[Mrs Ms]

Why does everyone think that Derick being educated mean he and Jill will be fundie-light or mainstream and that he will encourage Jill to get a real education? At least half of the fundie parents we snark on went to college and THEN become fundie.

Why would anyone think that Derick is still "mainstream" christian after jumping through all of Boobs many hoops? He is being fast-tracked to the altar and I'm sure he is at least as Kool-Aid guzzling as Jill. For once my optimism just isn't coming through :?

[mausi]

Why does everyone think that Derick being educated mean he and Jill will be fundie-light or mainstream and that he will encourage Jill to get a real education? At least half of the fundie parents we snark on went to college and THEN become fundie.

Why would anyone think that Derick is still "mainstream" christian after jumping through all of Boobs many hoops? He is being fast-tracked to the altar and I'm sure he is at least as Kool-Aid guzzling as Jill. For once my optimism just isn't coming through :?

Plus he is a religious missionary. To me that doesn't particularly scream 'mainstream'.