Fox News finally has proof that Sharia Law is taking over us

[Savoring Samsara]

Off topic: This thread has amazed me with how many FJ posters hail from St. Paul. Greetings from that other city across the river.

[bean]

Off topic: This thread has amazed me with how many FJ posters hail from St. Paul. Greetings from that other city across the river.

Agreed! Nice to know there are some fellow Twin-Citians (sp?) on here! How bout all this snow, eh?

[latraviata]

I do also wonder what the Sami people would say to the assertion that everything in Sweden before the 1960s was homogeneous and awesome with no conflicts or discrimination.

What did the Indians and the Afro-Americans say??

[Terrie]

Agreed! Nice to know there are some fellow Twin-Citians (sp?) on here! How bout all this snow, eh?

Man, that was a pain to uncover my car. I don't like the heavy, wet stuff.

[bean]

Man, that was a pain to uncover my car. I don't like the heavy, wet stuff.

I hear you! I am lucky enough to have a garage now - I had to park on the street the last two winters. It's a sweet sweet luxury.

Back to the topic at hand, it looks like Jon Stewart picked up on Fox's coverage of this story. I love Jon Stewart, he has such a great way of putting things into perspective. http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2013 ... _story.php

[Clementine]

"What is wrong with schools continuing their traditions and just incorporating new celebrations that reflect the current students?"

I get Clementine's point that her country has no tradition of being a country of immigrants, or of separation of church and state. That said, as a non-Christian, I have no problem with my kids LEARNING about other faiths, but I'd have a huge issue with them doing anything to CELEBRATE another faith. Lighting advent candles and going to church would cross that line for me. As a Jew, I have no interest in having non-Jews celebrate my holidays (and in fact, I'd rather not add in our holiday celebrations if it would result in distorted teachings or inadvertent violations of Jewish religious rules).

Sweden's role in taking in Jews refugees smuggled from Denmark during WWII was admirable. Today, though, religious freedom for Sweden's Jews is under attack. Sweden bans the kosher slaughter of animals (although visitsweden.com describes hunting as "practically a national past time"), and there was a recent bill tabled to ban circumcision.

Sweden banned ritual slaughter, both halal and koscher in 1937 because it is seen as unnecessary cruelty. It is still legal to import meat that is halal or koscher from abroad.

[Conuly]

Clementine, if your schools are refusing to hold end-of-year ceremonies because they can't do it in a church, that's not the fault of the Muslims. They could do it in a way that isn't exclusionary, and if they'd rather whine about "traditions" than keep them, that's all them.

Likewise, I'm sure the kids don't care what you call the break so long as they get one. Claiming you're losing a tradition because you've changed the name is silly and pointless.

I just checked the history of education in Sweden, and it doesn't look like compulsory education has been around that long. What, exactly, did people do before they celebrated their holidays in school? Do you really think that your traditions are so weak they can't survive without being propped up?

You say that if you moved to another country, you wouldn't expect them to accommodate you. And you might be right, though it's hard to say because, of course, you haven't put this to the test.

But if you and a whole bunch of Swedes emigrated because you couldn't continue in Sweden anymore because it wasn't safe and there weren't many jobs, and you expected to spend your life in this other country and for your children to grow up there, I'd be willing to bet that you would start to get upset if, year after year after year, your children weree made to feel like outsiders at their own school, in their own neighborhood, pointedly "excused" every time their classmates did something fun. You say it doesn't hurt anybody, but it does. It hurts those children who have to see, every year, that they don't belong and never will.

[Clementine]

Clementine, if your schools are refusing to hold end-of-year ceremonies because they can't do it in a church, that's not the fault of the Muslims. They could do it in a way that isn't exclusionary, and if they'd rather whine about "traditions" than keep them, that's all them.

Likewise, I'm sure the kids don't care what you call the break so long as they get one. Claiming you're losing a tradition because you've changed the name is silly and pointless.

I just checked the history of education in Sweden, and it doesn't look like compulsory education has been around that long. What, exactly, did people do before they celebrated their holidays in school? Do you really think that your traditions are so weak they can't survive without being propped up?

You say that if you moved to another country, you wouldn't expect them to accommodate you. And you might be right, though it's hard to say because, of course, you haven't put this to the test.

But if you and a whole bunch of Swedes emigrated because you couldn't continue in Sweden anymore because it wasn't safe and there weren't many jobs, and you expected to spend your life in this other country and for your children to grow up there, I'd be willing to bet that you would start to get upset if, year after year after year, your children weree made to feel like outsiders at their own school, in their own neighborhood, pointedly "excused" every time their classmates did something fun. You say it doesn't hurt anybody, but it does. It hurts those children who have to see, every year, that they don't belong and never will.

Education has been mandatory since 1842. Back then we had a state church and Bible studies were included in the curriculum. That has been removed - now it is mandatory to have religion classes and teach about all the big religions.

Like I wrote, our culture will change and evolve, especially in the global age today. I think evolving is the right word, not forbidding. I also think that cultural sensitivity goes both ways and that there should be ways to resolve this that makes everybody happy and included.

Normally the children go to church first and then go back to school to eat sweets, get the grades, celebrate a little and say goodbye. The first part could be voluntarily, the second compulsary. Christmas crafts could be both angels and Santas and Batmans or whatever people want to make. Etc etc. There would be ways to solve this without making parts of the native Swedes feel offended. With time things probably would solve themselves and we will have new traditions or a melange of many different ones, without hurt feelings.

I also think that this way of schools removing our traditions will lead to more private, but tax funded, schools who will put a strong emphasis on our heritage and traditions and thus make the society even more separated. I don't think that's a great idea in the long run but there already are a number of private schools that are tied to a specific religion.

[tropaka]

I'm not a big fan of ditching traditions (especially if they are more cultural than religious), I'm more into including new/different ones. My kids, in Toronto, have learned about and taken part in some cultural practices (usually food) that include Eid, Dawali (sp), Hannukah, Christmas, Kwanza etc and so on, all in public elementary school. It's all kinda sanitized to focus less on the religious aspects of these holidays. Mind you, we also have publicly-funded Catholic schools.

Re women-only swim classes - these exist at our City-run Parks and Rec centres here - it not only attracts muslim women but women of other faiths that are more "modest" and those of us who might be a bit self-conscious.

[mypsychoticself]

I'm not a big fan of ditching traditions (especially if they are more cultural than religious), I'm more into including new/different ones. My kids, in Toronto, have learned about and taken part in some cultural practices (usually food) that include Eid, Dawali (sp), Hannukah, Christmas, Kwanza etc and so on, all in public elementary school. It's all kinda sanitized to focus less on the religious aspects of these holidays. Mind you, we also have publicly-funded Catholic schools.

Re women-only swim classes - these exist at our City-run Parks and Rec centres here - it not only attracts muslim women but women of other faiths that are more "modest" and those of us who might be a bit self-conscious.

My elementary school had a day where parents of different faiths could come and talk about their beliefs/holidays. So my mom came and did a thing about Hanukkah and Judaism, etc. It was a lot of fun, and allowed us to celebrate Christmas without only celebrating Christmas.

[bekkah]

Agreed! Nice to know there are some fellow Twin-Citians (sp?) on here! How bout all this snow, eh?

It was a snow emergency last night! Ended up clearing my car in shorts, a light jacket and uggs! I don't think I could get more MN, maybe we just need to have a little Happy Hour for all the Twin-Citians fjites!

[latraviata]

Of course another supicious and bias message and another evidence to accuse the worried and concerned Swedish citizens of being racists and fascists. It is a way to have 'an intelligent discussion' cut short, but never mind we are all liers arent't we????

zZtc2ma2GEQ

[Black Aliss]

In my city and in some of the surrounding bedroom communities a number of public pools have designated a women-only swim hour and a men-only swim hour, at times when the pools are otherwise underutilized. They did this because a small group of women would typically pay the $156/hour to reserve the pool for themselves at that time and it ocurred to the [ETA] The women-only swim times are frequented by orthodox jewish, fundie christianists, women who are uncomfortable exposing their large bodies in public, and, yes, a fair number of muslim women. And yes, people have complained, and sued, not because their own rights are being infringed on but because all these poor women are being marginalized whether they know it or not and it is everyone else's right to see to it that they aren't marginalized. Because, you know, they obviously aren't able to see this for themselves. #end_sarcasm

Apparently the Fox News report used (without permission or attribution) a photo from the Seattle Times that illustrated a recent story about the separate swim hours here. Although the women pictured (in hijabs) were the two Muslim women who originally organized the women-only hour at a local pool, the Times story made it very clear that it wasn't a Muslim-only swim time. Which, I suspect, is also the case with the pool in Minnesota, even if it was originally started for young Somali women.

As someone who doesn't have "body issues", per se, and who also doesn't have a thing about modesty, I would welcome a women-only swim time at my local pool. One of the reasons I gave up my Y membership was that I was tired of being ogled by the old guys and harassed by the young guys (allegedly members of the local organized crime scene) who had essentially taken over the pool and sauna.

[Conuly]

Oh, geez. Within two sentences he runs off with the phrase "multicultural nightmare". I'm not feeling very hopeful about the rest of the video. Listen, if you can't come up with a source that at least makes an effort to sound unbiased, that kinda proves the point, doesn't it?

Incidentally, liar is spelled with an a. Lots of native speakers get that wrong too, it's a stupid spelling, I just thought you should know.

[latraviata]

Oh, geez. Within two sentences he runs off with the phrase "multicultural nightmare". I'm not feeling very hopeful about the rest of the video. Listen, if you can't come up with a source that at least makes an effort to sound unbiased, that kinda proves the point, doesn't it?

Incidentally, liar is spelled with an a. Lots of native speakers get that wrong too, it's a stupid spelling, I just thought you should know.

Thank you for that one, I'll be happy to translate it into French, German, Dutch and new/ancient Greek. Let's continue the discussion in my language.

By the way, it is a mulicultural nightmare and it is very hard to find an unbiased source, but you have to know something about European history and politics to understand that.

That is the point of this discussion, Clementine provided all sorts of information about the situation and it was all waved away as being sensationalised, false, seditious and biased because the content wasn't very pleasing, but it is not really an argument and contribution to an intelligent discussion is it?

It is so much easier to call her a racist and a fascist isn't it?

[Conuly]

That is the point of this discussion, Clementine provided all sorts of information about the situation and it was all waved away as being sensationalised, false, seditious and biased because the content wasn't very pleasing, but it is not really an argument and contribution to an intelligent discussion is it?

Where did anybody call her a fascist? Or seditious? If you can't quote it, I'm going to go ahead and call you a liar right to your face.

Clementine provided some information, yes. Precious little of it backed up her point of view. I'm not dismissing it because it isn't "pleasing", I'm dismissing it because it doesn't say what you want it to say. (Except for the occasional polemic. Well, yeah. Again, if you start out with the word "nightmare", you aren't an unbiased source and your credibility is shot.)

Edit: I'm now watching the video in full, and yes, it is about as awful as I suspected. Listen, if the best source you can find is the one who says "all Muslims are stupid rapists who hate women and could never win the Nobel prize, and by the way, Sweden is full of crazies who are ashamed of their culture", then either you aren't trying very hard or your opinion is not based in fact.

[Mama Mia]

"What is wrong with schools continuing their traditions and just incorporating new celebrations that reflect the current students?"

I get Clementine's point that her country has no tradition of being a country of immigrants, or of separation of church and state. That said, as a non-Christian, I have no problem with my kids LEARNING about other faiths, but I'd have a huge issue with them doing anything to CELEBRATE another faith. Lighting advent candles and going to church would cross that line for me. As a Jew, I have no interest in having non-Jews celebrate my holidays (and in fact, I'd rather not add in our holiday celebrations if it would result in distorted teachings or inadvertent violations of Jewish religious rules).

Sweden's role in taking in Jews refugees smuggled from Denmark during WWII was admirable. Today, though, religious freedom for Sweden's Jews is under attack. Sweden bans the kosher slaughter of animals (although visitsweden.com describes hunting as "practically a national past time"), and there was a recent bill tabled to ban circumcision.

Out of curiosity, why would you have a huge issue with your children celebrating another religions holiday? Or with having non-Jewish children celebrate Jewish holidays?

I could see if it is saying prayers that imply a belief in whatever the religion is, but if children are just observing the parts that aren't part of their own faith or that they aren't comfortable participating in, and joining in on the more innocuous aspects.....I don't understand the issue. I'm sure you have reasons, I'm just interested in people's different takes on this.

[Sola]

That's our history JFC, look it up if you want to. The last time there was a civil war or uproar in the country was in the 17:th century and the last time Sweden went to war was in 1809 when Russia attacked Finland, then a Swedish province, and we lost it and in 1804 when our king sent Swedish troups to fight against Napoleon i France.

We have a long history of peace and unity and it has contributed to where we are today.

I am not saying that we should ban immigration because the world is very different today, but I don't think that we should disregard our history and the fact that because of our history we have very strong traditions that a vast majority of Swedes have celebrated for centuries and still celebrate. I think that it is perfectly possible to keep our old traditions and add new ones from our new immigrants as well.

You trying to slap different bad names on me (rasist and fascist) really doesn't do you any favours in this debate, JFC.

Are you trying to say that Sweden's problems are caused through immigration then? Because thst

Is what is coming across to me.

The UK has a long history and strong traditions. We also don't have separation of church and state. Our state schools, unless the are free schools, are of a christian ethos. Yet despite that we have a long history of accepting immigrants. Its not perfect and yes we do have alarmists who shout loudly, but for the most part the public know that immigration has been good for us. It works for us because we are accepting and inclusive. Nobody is stopping us from celebrating our traditions; right now in every town you'll see Christmas lights decorating every town center, every school will have a christmas tree and carol service, our public services will soon be running a Christmas schedule over the holidays, and people will be wishing each other 'happy Christmas'. Nobody is trying to stop that.

Sweden, like it or not, comes across as a xenophobiccountry.You tell me you have problems with immigrants, well iI wwould say that Sweden's xenophobia and problems with integrating immigrants is related. Just maybe if you reached out to these immigrants you might find that they don't want to take your traditions and they just want live their lives.

[Mama Mia]

That's another thing that is interesting. So for posters who live in Countries with an official church, and where School and church are more intertwined than in the U.S. , how does that work with non-Christian students? Do they excuse themselves from Christmas Carols, or join in, or is it up to the individual? What about holidays that aren't observed by the official church?

Learning about all these diffferences really is the most interesting part of the forum I think. Even when people disagree.

[JesusFightClub]

When I was at school the Muslim kids joined in with the rest in doing Xmas carols/nativity etc. I asked my mate about this once and she said "Our dads think it's better than nothing" :lol:

In theory you can opt out of these things but in practice it would be hard, I think. Certainly when I was young I discovered the joys of atheism and Marxism simultaneously, but I was still at school. I asked to opt out of religious assembly and was told in no uncertain terms it wasn't happening.

Small (wee niece) faces a similar problem because her dad's bringing her up as a fundie atheist. She gets quite upset because she can't understand why the teachers tell her that God is real, because teachers don't tell lies, do they? We basically tell her that some people believe in God and we don't argue with them because that would be rude, and to just think of things like the baby Jesus play as a bit of fun. Opting her out of stuff like the Nativity play/Christmas carols/assembly would just be isolating her and setting her apart from the rest of the class, even if the school would be happy to go along with that. (And you can't prevent teachers from saying things in class - her primary teacher has so far told her that God made all the animals in the world and that the rain is God crying, amongst other weird things).

[JesusFightClub]

Oops - meant to add as for holidays, the kids did get time off for holidays that weren't official Christian ones - for Eid is an example I am thinking of. The teachers were told to be sensitive to pupils who were fasting for Ramadan, but I don't think they were in practice. I'm not sure about other religious holidays.

[OkToBeTakei]

That's another thing that is interesting. So for posters who live in Countries with an official church, and where School and church are more intertwined than in the U.S. , how does that work with non-Christian students? Do they excuse themselves from Christmas Carols, or join in, or is it up to the individual? What about holidays that aren't observed by the official church?

Learning about all these diffferences really is the most interesting part of the forum I think. Even when people disagree.

Good question. I was thinking about this and generally in my particular demographic it just is not an issue. There are state schools which are catholic but you do not need to be catholic to attend. There are mainly an entity called non-denominational schools. There are private schools. Gaelic language . What makes and isolates IS the parents who make the hoohah about their child not attending say an assembly where a prayer may be said. Religious subjects tend to be optional anyway.

So far this year my child has attended Mosque twice, Synagogue twice and an Episcopalian, Church of Scotland, and two other denominations. It teaches diversity, acceptance and respect. They are told how to behave to not cause offence when participating without necessarily 'taking part.' I have no strong feelings that this will any do anything except benefit my child in her realisation that the world is made up of many beliefs. If I wanted I could have excluded her and told her absolutely no way Catholicism is the only true religion. She needs to know that every religion to some extent feel that whilst feeling happy and secure in her own faith, I don't fear other' s belief systems I just know on an intellectual level that faith withstanding we can't all be right and find away to rub along if that makes sense. For me starting young will help that. Isolation causes distrust.

Lack of education causes misunderstanding and can lead to fear really.

Of the 6 schools in the community only one child was excluded from this by his parents.

[Terrie]

Lav, i'm sorry, but I don't think it's a very effective argument to complain about other posters' ignorance of European history and politics when Clementine came into this thread and insisted that the story posted by the OP (About a private pool in the US offering women-only swimming) was simply the start of all sorts of issues caused by immigrants.

I don't know if this is an example of sharia law, but it is not uncomplicated that we in the west has fought for equal rights for men and women, democracy and an open society, the possibility for women to public places and not suffer harrassment and now we have a group of immigrants who demand that we reinstate gender segregation.

Separate hours at a pool may seem quite harmless, but our fear of standing up for our rights have now led to public pools in cities with a large immigrant population from the Middle East and North Africa are dangerous to visit for women .... That's one result of what happens when you out of some misguided respect for other cultures refuse to stand up for your own.

I don't think that our tax money should be used for gender segregation.

She came in and declared that the situation in the news story was just like what she sees in Sweden. The problem is that this is massively ignorant of American culture, history and law. What's more, she used arguments and claims that, in America, are only used by extremists of the worst sort. Fox News is the most liberal source of that sort of thing. If you and Clementine want to discuss the issues caused by Muslim fundamentalists in Europe, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's even remotely relevant to the original news story or the situation in the US.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Out of curiosity, why would you have a huge issue with your children celebrating another religions holiday? Or with having non-Jewish children celebrate Jewish holidays?

I could see if it is saying prayers that imply a belief in whatever the religion is, but if children are just observing the parts that aren't part of their own faith or that they aren't comfortable participating in, and joining in on the more innocuous aspects.....I don't understand the issue. I'm sure you have reasons, I'm just interested in people's different takes on this.

Like I said, learning about is different from celebrating. I'm also perfectly fine with acknowledging holidays that other people have.

To me, celebrating involves being an active participant. If it's something religious - and going to a church and lighting advent candles are things that I'd consider to be religious - then celebrating implies some active endorsement of that religious event. That's a problem for me.

If a non-Jewish child wants to eat a latke, that's fine, but it's really not necessary. I'm not trying to get non-Jews to observe Judaism. In some cases, traditional Judaism does have strict rules about certain prayers and commandments. The name of God is considered sacred, so you are supposed to substitute a word meaning "the name" if you aren't saying a blessing or prayer in exactly the way that you are supposed to do it. Certain rituals can only be done by certain people, at certain times, in a certain way.

In a nutshell, I think that religious observances mean something, Jewish or non-Jewish.

[Mama Mia]

Like I said, learning about is different from celebrating. I'm also perfectly fine with acknowledging holidays that other people have.

To me, celebrating involves being an active participant. If it's something religious - and going to a church and lighting advent candles are things that I'd consider to be religious - then celebrating implies some active endorsement of that religious event. That's a problem for me.

If a non-Jewish child wants to eat a latke, that's fine, but it's really not necessary. I'm not trying to get non-Jews to observe Judaism. In some cases, traditional Judaism does have strict rules about certain prayers and commandments. The name of God is considered sacred, so you are supposed to substitute a word meaning "the name" if you aren't saying a blessing or prayer in exactly the way that you are supposed to do it. Certain rituals can only be done by certain people, at certain times, in a certain way.

In a nutshell, I think that religious observances mean something, Jewish or non-Jewish.

I can understand that ( it's not my view, but I understand the reasoning ) So would you be okay with your children participating in the way that OKTBT described?

My main exposure, in a U.S. Public school many years ago, to students not participating in holiday activities was with Jehovah Witnesses, who could not do things like get a Valentine or get a cupcake when someone brought them for their birthday or say the pledge. There wasn't anything much more religious than that at school. Christmas Carols, maybe.