Fox News finally has proof that Sharia Law is taking over us

[Sola]

That's another thing that is interesting. So for posters who live in Countries with an official church, and where School and church are more intertwined than in the U.S. , how does that work with non-Christian students? Do they excuse themselves from Christmas Carols, or join in, or is it up to the individual? What about holidays that aren't observed by the official church?

Learning about all these diffferences really is the most interesting part of the forum I think. Even when people disagree.

My daughter attends a school with a high proportion of ethnic minorities. Around 40% of the students are Muslims of Pakistani/Bangladeshi backgrounds. Another 10% are either Rroma or African, and there's a few Iraqis and Afghanis. Only around 40% are white and a fair few that are, are from eastern Europe. And you know, its an amazing school. The kids get along well,

Assemblies are held several times a week and all kids attend, though non-christian students don't have to take part in prayers. There is a nondenominational prayer room that all students can use, but it is mainly utilised by the Muslim students. RE lessons are inclusive and all main religions are covered. The school has an Eid celebration (its actually awesome anbd my daughter loved it this year, she got to wear a gorgeous Shalwar Kameez) whenever Eid falls within the school year. School is not closed during Eid and ALL students are expected to attend school. That's why they started having a celebration at school as otherwise half the school wouldn't turn up during Eid. Standard UK school holidays are observed. Things like Carol services come under observing religious services so is not compulsory. However most of the kids attend as its fun.

[OkToBeTakei]

Like I said, learning about is different from celebrating. I'm also perfectly fine with acknowledging holidays that other people have.

To me, celebrating involves being an active participant. If it's something religious - and going to a church and lighting advent candles are things that I'd consider to be religious - then celebrating implies some active endorsement of that religious event. That's a problem for me.

If a non-Jewish child wants to eat a latke, that's fine, but it's really not necessary. I'm not trying to get non-Jews to observe Judaism. In some cases, traditional Judaism does have strict rules about certain prayers and commandments. The name of God is considered sacred, so you are supposed to substitute a word meaning "the name" if you aren't saying a blessing or prayer in exactly the way that you are supposed to do it. Certain rituals can only be done by certain people, at certain times, in a certain way.

In a nutshell, I think that religious observances mean something, Jewish or non-Jewish.

What is wrong though in 'endorsing' another religion's event per se by being there? Is the implication that because it is a different religion it is therefore wrong? I'm not sure I understand that correctly. By going to the Mosque my child was not being led to become Muslim no more as you said by eating Jewish food was she being made to observe another faith.

It is an exercise in respect to encourage the children to be accepting of other faiths and the ethnic diversity in their community. In each faith they were told how to behave as a 'non' observer so as to show respect.

It was particularly nice for Muslim children to show their pals their 'special' place as it was with the other religions.

Took me ages to find my Rosary so mine could look 'really' Catholic to her pals :lol:

Children are the best place to stop emerging prejudice I'm sure any deity we choose to follow would be fairly happy with that.

[docmom]

What is wrong though in 'endorsing' another religion's event per se by being there? Is the implication that because it is a different religion it is therefore wrong? I'm not sure I understand that correctly. By going to the Mosque my child was not being led to become Muslim no more as you said by eating Jewish food was she being made to observe another faith.

It is an exercise in respect to encourage the children to be accepting of other faiths and the ethnic diversity in their community. In each faith they were told how to behave as a 'non' observer so as to show respect.

It was particularly nice for Muslim children to show their pals their 'special' place as it was with the other religions.

Took me ages to find my Rosary so mine could look 'really' Catholic to her pals :lol:

Children are the best place to stop emerging prejudice I'm sure any deity we choose to follow would be fairly happy with that.

I completely agree OKTBT. The more people know the better they understand each other. If there are religious laws that might be violated by a non-observer of that religion's participation, then by all means, talk about it. Catholics don't want non-Catholics taking communion. Fine, tell the kids that and tell them why. Jews don't use the name of God, fine, tell the kids that when they visit the synagogue they should use another name. Ignorance breeds mistrust. Education has always been our biggest tool against extremism. My children's school has a special end of the term celebration this month which features an advent wreath, a menorrah, a budhist candle, Dwali lights, a unity candle (no religious affiliation) and a special Muslim lanterns. Students light the candles while telling the story behind them. Everyone sings appropriate songs. It's a private school which is how we get away with it in the US, but it's done exactly how I think it should be done with deep respect and with the goal of educating, not indoctrinating.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Good question. I was thinking about this and generally in my particular demographic it just is not an issue. There are state schools which are catholic but you do not need to be catholic to attend. There are mainly an entity called non-denominational schools. There are private schools. Gaelic language . What makes and isolates IS the parents who make the hoohah about their child not attending say an assembly where a prayer may be said. Religious subjects tend to be optional anyway.

So far this year my child has attended Mosque twice, Synagogue twice and an Episcopalian, Church of Scotland, and two other denominations. It teaches diversity, acceptance and respect. They are told how to behave to not cause offence when participating without necessarily 'taking part.' I have no strong feelings that this will any do anything except benefit my child in her realisation that the world is made up of many beliefs. If I wanted I could have excluded her and told her absolutely no way Catholicism is the only true religion. She needs to know that every religion to some extent feel that whilst feeling happy and secure in her own faith, I don't fear other' s belief systems I just know on an intellectual level that faith withstanding we can't all be right and find away to rub along if that makes sense. For me starting young will help that. Isolation causes distrust.

Lack of education causes misunderstanding and can lead to fear really.

Of the 6 schools in the community only one child was excluded from this by his parents.

Do the kids attend an actual service, or do they just go for a visit and get an explanation of what the religion is about?

Like I said, learning about other faiths is a great thing. I think that it's important to know a bit about the major doctrines and world view, major requirements and/or prohibitions, something about major celebrations and life cycle events, and any unique points of etiquette.

Personally, I've attended wedding ceremonies in a bunch of different faiths, and for the most part, figured that it was pretty clear that I was simply observing other people engaging in prayer and religious rites. [There was one place that I found a bit disturbing - it has hard to ignore some of the blatant anti-Hindu stuff in one gurdwara. I was fine with the dress code and respecting the religious part, but eating beneath posters glorifying assassins was hard to take.] I will also visit places of worship when services are not being conducted, for historical or architectural interest.

That said, I know some who are stricter than I am about this. According to my rabbi, visiting a mosque (not participating in prayer) is fine since Muslims are strictly monotheistic and don't have paintings or statues, but potential religious issues can arise with some types of churches.

In terms of recognizing holidays - I'm fine with someone bringing in veggies samosas for Diwali, latkes for Hanukkah and candy canes for Christmas (assuming everyone meets peanut-free protocols, of course), and having calendars note the various celebrations (because no, December is NOT the main festive season for all religions). I have more of an issue with participating in rituals, prayers, etc. I think that you can learn about what someone else does without becoming an active participant yourself.

[AnywhereButHere]

Over the years I've attended Bar Mitzvahs for classmates, a memorial service for a friend's mom in an Indian temple (Hindu I think. It was a while ago), Sunday services in many different denominations of Christian churches with friends. I've learned a lot from all of those experiences, but I think the difference between learning about and celebrating is in the participation level. When I went to the Bar Mitzvah and the memorial service, I stood and sat as everyone else did, but during times of prayer or times that required a call and response type of thing I stayed quiet. Since I am not a part of those religions, I felt it wasn't my place to participate in their holy rituals. To do that, when I don't know the meaning behind them or may not believe in, to me makes a mockery of that ritual. It's a big part of why I no longer go to my own church. If I don't understand or believe in the meaning behind the ritual, it makes it a hollow gesture to participate in it and may cheapen it for others who do believe and know I don't.

I would be happy to attend a Passover dinner at a friend's house and join in their meal, but I can understand where my trying to participate in the prayers would be offputting and seemingly disrespectful to my hosts. A good friend of my husband's is Jewish and was the best man in our wedding. His comfort level was that he was fine standing up with my husband, but there were certain points in the ceremony where he was not okay (holding a cross over our heads etc.), so for those parts another friend stepped in. As always, this made so much more sense in my head, but my 2 cents anyway... :)

[Terrie]

Various religions and individuals also have different rules on where the line between "learning about" and "being an active participant" falls. My aunt's church allows her to attend services at other churches, but she can't do the call and response or even sing the hymns (even if they're some of the same ones her church uses), because that is participation. And that's between two Christian churches. Needless to say, she can't attend a non-Protestant service, let alone a non-Christian one. I know at least one Orthodox Jew who won't even attend a Christmas party, because her line is "Jewish vs. not Jewish." She told me once that even when the party is basically secular, she can't shake the thought that it wouldn't be happening without a non-Jewish holiday. (Given the way the fundies push "Jesus: The Reason for the Season!" I can't say I disagree there).

Religion is highly personal, so I think taking a cautious approach is best and, when it doubt, don't do it.

[JesusFightClub]

Ah. This is an interesting issue for me because I have offered prayers at a Buddhist wake despite being an atheist.

I lived in Japan and the mother of one of my students died. I was very sorry to hear of it and I had met the mum a few times, she came along to my adult English classes.

Her daughter came and asked me if I would show respect and sit for a while with her family and pray in front of the shrine. I said I was very honoured to be asked but I didn't know any Buddhist prayers. She said "That's OK, a Christian one will do."

So I went along and bowed my head in front of a picture of her mum, and her ashes, and some candles and incense. I brought some special money in an envelop. When I was there I said a prayer, in order to be respectful. I could only think of the Lord's Prayer ("Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name....") so I did that one. It felt like the right thing to do. The family were pleased and thanked me for doing it, and I felt like I'd showed respect for people I really liked and for the sad death they had experienced, which was why I agreed in the first place - these were lovely people and I think the tradition is something like what I know as a Scottish wake when people drop in to have a drink and talk about the good things the dead person did. They gave me a little shot of sake which I had to down in a oner and talked about their mum and how they loved her.

After I did that I told a few people about it. The fundie Christian said I'd disgraced myself and he would never do it. Some of my atheist friends said they wouldn't have done it because they didn't hold any belief.

I've never been sure I was right. It definitely felt right, but I did participate in a religious ceremony I didn't believe in.

[Mama Mia]

Ah. This is an interesting issue for me because I have offered prayers at a Buddhist wake despite being an atheist.

I lived in Japan and the mother of one of my students died. I was very sorry to hear of it and I had met the mum a few times, she came along to my adult English classes.

Her daughter came and asked me if I would show respect and sit for a while with her family and pray in front of the shrine. I said I was very honoured to be asked but I didn't know any Buddhist prayers. She said "That's OK, a Christian one will do."

So I went along and bowed my head in front of a picture of her mum, and her ashes, and some candles and incense. I brought some special money in an envelop. When I was there I said a prayer, in order to be respectful. I could only think of the Lord's Prayer ("Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name....") so I did that one. It felt like the right thing to do. The family were pleased and thanked me for doing it, and I felt like I'd showed respect for people I really liked and for the sad death they had experienced, which was why I agreed in the first place - these were lovely people and I think the tradition is something like what I know as a Scottish wake when people drop in to have a drink and talk about the good things the dead person did. They gave me a little shot of sake which I had to down in a oner and talked about their mum and how they loved her.

After I did that I told a few people about it. The fundie Christian said I'd disgraced myself and he would never do it. Some of my atheist friends said they wouldn't have done it because they didn't hold any belief.

I've never been sure I was right. It definitely felt right, but I did participate in a religious ceremony I didn't believe in.

If it was comforting and showed respect to the family, and it felt right to you, than it seems like the perfect response.

[Jinger Jar]

Various religions and individuals also have different rules on where the line between "learning about" and "being an active participant" falls.

The bolded is absolutely correct. My mother-in-law's sister did not attend my wedding Mass. Her minister said that by simply attending she would be endorsing a belief system contradictory to her own. On the other hand, my mother-in-law's brother and his family were told by *their* minister that they could attend our wedding Mass, and as long as they didn't participate (sing, pray, etc.) they wouldn't be seen as endorsing (for lack of a better word) Catholicism. Same Christian denomination, different ministers, different interpretations.

[AnywhereButHere]

It is very interesting to see the levels of comfort that people have with things. I can’t take communion at one friend’s Catholic Church but am more than welcome to at another’s Episcopal church. At the Indian memorial service I attended, the officiant was offering something edible (sorry 20 + years ago and my memory is fuzzy to say the least) during the service and all were welcome to take it (actually, I remember them being very welcoming to all of us in general and made a special effort to not make us feel left out in any way – outside of the whole language barrier thing). I have a friend who didn’t attend my wedding ceremony because as Greek Orthodox she felt uncomfortable at my Armenian Orthodox ceremony, but my husband’s Jewish friend was comfortable with being his best man, albeit with slightly amended participation. Personally, I feel funny participating in some things because I am overly self- conscious in many ways and worry (maybe too much) about inadvertently offending someone but love going and observing (and hopefully not offending by my lack of participation – see, I’m a mess :) ).

[Arete]

AnywhereButHere, that is interesting about your husband's best man. I'm Greek Orthodox, and we can only have another Eastern Orthodox Christian be our wedding sponsor. For others reading this post, in Orthodox Churches the wedding ceremony requires another OC to stand with the couple, ritually "crown" them, and then lead them around the wedding table 3 times.

In our church your husband's best man would most certainly be able to stand up with you guys, but he would never have been able to participate in the ritual part as a non-Orthodox. That is why at our weddings it sometimes appears as if there are "two" best men or matrons of honor. For us there are not. One is serving the ritual and prayer function, the other is your closets friend you want to stand with you.

Oh, and your GO friend who was uncomfortable in an Armenian Orthodox Church? She was a tool, or perhaps had consulted a fanatical monastic tool. There is nothing in our cannons that forbid us from standing our friends in their own houses of worship.

[paganhomeschooler]

JFC: I think if you felt it was the right thing to do and the family welcomed it, then it was a good thing. Nearly all of my friends are some brand of Christian. I go to weddings, funerals, Baptisms, Communions. I generally just stand quietly (and sit, kneel, sit, stand, kneel, lol.....Catholic family) I did feel compelled to say the prayers at my aunt's funeral recently. I know she would have wanted it. I know my grandmother, who was in from out of state that I never thought I would get to see again appreciated it. It was also only our closest family (my grandma, aunts, uncles, cousins, and 3 of my mom's aunts and a cousin.) It just felt like the right, bonding thing to do to support my family and honor my aunt, so I did it.

Honestly, I felt like an idiot because my kids didn't know the prayers and looked at me like I was nuts. The kids have been raised without having a religion because my husband (agnostic) and I want them to choose their own paths when they are capable of making that decision for themselves. We have bibles in the house and we learn about different religious traditions. I actually love nativity sets and have collected them since I was a little girl and was still Catholic. I think they're beautiful. I've got a good collection of Fontanini pieces. Anyway, I have never wanted to shelter the kids from religion. That's my big conundrum. How much is pushing them towards one belief or another. Should I make them learn the prayers so they have that family heritage? My oldest says she's pagan, and the others don't seem to care other than not liking it when they have to sit for an hour without talking/fidgeting when we go to family functions that are church related.

[RosyDaisy]

JFC, I'm confused about something. How are natives Scots and Irish not white? I don't get it.

[JesusFightClub]

JFC, I'm confused about something. How are natives Scots and Irish not white? I don't get it.

Some of them aren't, RD. It's weird, but true ;)

I was born to a Scots Irish dad and a mum who moved to Scotland shortly before I was born. One side of the family emigrated a generation before I was born. My mum's a recent immigrant. I'm white ;)

My nieces were born to my brother, who has the same parentage as I do, and to a mum, who without getting into a huge amount of detail, has one immigrant non-white parent and one parent whose family have been in Scotland a heck of a lot longer than either side of my family has. Taken as a whole, as it were, they have more Scottish roots than I do.

This is why it starts to suck to talk about "native this" and "indigenous that". I am a native and white Scot, although I was born to immigrant parents. My nieces are native Scots but they are mixed race, although they are born to parents who have a longer family history than I do of being in this country. My mixed-race nieces speak Scots and have Scottish accent. I don't. Who's the real Scot?

[RosyDaisy]

Ok, I understand. I'm sorry people in your country are treated as unwanted outsiders.

[JesusFightClub]

Ok, I understand. I'm sorry people in your country are treated as unwanted outsiders.

We are getting better. Slowly and surely, we are getting better (and I'm hoping an independent Scotland will be better still).

[OkToBeTakei]

Ok, I understand. I'm sorry people in your country are treated as unwanted outsiders.

They are not. Well not if your take on it is referenced by the Swedish comments here.

Most if not all of immigration happened here in the 60's. I am not Scottish either by JFC's reckoning. Most of the Muslim population of Glasgow arrived in the 60's as did a huge migration from Italy. Most are 2nd 3rd generation. I am the only Scots born member of my Irish family (being the youngest.)

The issues we have now are not of the variety I suspect you mean by your comment. They are due more to the EU and the lowering of borders and the influx that has brought.

I will respectfully totally disagree with JFC regarding an independent Scotland helping that, she would expect that though :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

Do the kids attend an actual service, or do they just go for a visit and get an explanation of what the religion is about?

Like I said, learning about other faiths is a great thing. I think that it's important to know a bit about the major doctrines and world view, major requirements and/or prohibitions, something about major celebrations and life cycle events, and any unique points of etiquette.

Personally, I've attended wedding ceremonies in a bunch of different faiths, and for the most part, figured that it was pretty clear that I was simply observing other people engaging in prayer and religious rites. [There was one place that I found a bit disturbing - it has hard to ignore some of the blatant anti-Hindu stuff in one gurdwara. I was fine with the dress code and respecting the religious part, but eating beneath posters glorifying assassins was hard to take.] I will also visit places of worship when services are not being conducted, for historical or architectural interest.

That said, I know some who are stricter than I am about this. According to my rabbi, visiting a mosque (not participating in prayer) is fine since Muslims are strictly monotheistic and don't have paintings or statues, but potential religious issues can arise with some types of churches.

In terms of recognizing holidays - I'm fine with someone bringing in veggies samosas for Diwali, latkes for Hanukkah and candy canes for Christmas (assuming everyone meets peanut-free protocols, of course), and having calendars note the various celebrations (because no, December is NOT the main festive season for all religions). I have more of an issue with participating in rituals, prayers, etc. I think that you can learn about what someone else does without becoming an active participant yourself.

Some they attended services and some it was not possible due to them being there in school time. The type of services and timings of them were re-enacted by the children of the individual faiths to give the kiddos an idea of living the life of said religion as a child. As I said the children were told how to behave and not offend.

You know what though? So what if they had. That's an adult thing. If one had joined his hands in prayer in the Mosque would the world end? Social faux pas happens. I don't see it as a reason to start some THAT is why you are not allowed conversation. Education has to happen somewhere.

I really do not get and probably never will the attitude that some religions are so elitist about their traditions and services that something like that would cause so much offence. If we do not teach the next generation to respect and have knowledge of differing culture and religion then history has taught us nothing at all. I find the premise that participation needs to be akin to disrespect or disrespecting your own religion or that observing another religion in their rituals needs to be so elite.

For me you may as well say, sorry you can't do that you are the wrong sex, or the wrong colour.

We can teach people to be tolerant alongside being respectful of other faiths and what will and will not be offensive but to do that there has to be openness on all sides.

I hope in future years if some Muslim terrorist decides to hack to death on the street a soldier my child will not judge that ONE Muslim. I hope if she hears an anti-semitic comment she will recognise it. I hope the religious bigotry alive regarding protestants and catholics in my country ends with this generation.

People fear that they have no knowledge of. She now has been welcomed to all the places where that type of misunderstanding and ignorance can start. I hope she remembers and that it continues.

[RosyDaisy]

They are not. Well not if your take on it is referenced by the Swedish comments here.

Most if not all of immigration happened here in the 60's. I am not Scottish either by JFC's reckoning. Most of the Muslim population of Glasgow arrived in the 60's as did a huge migration from Italy. Most are 2nd 3rd generation. I am the only Scots born member of my Irish family (being the youngest.)

The issues we have now are not of the variety I suspect you mean by your comment. They are due more to the EU and the lowering of borders and the influx that has brought.

I will respectfully totally disagree with JFC regarding an independent Scotland helping that, she would expect that though :lol:

Ok, now I'm totally confused. When I said native, I meant descendants of the original inhabitants of Scots and Irish. It wasn't in any way related to the posts about Sweden. Did that make sense?

[JesusFightClub]

It's a very confusing issue RosyDaisy and I think confuses us all :)

What I am trying in a rubbish way to say is that Scots are basically a nation of immigrants, it's just whether the immigration was sooner or later. Loads of us can trace our history to Irish or Italian or Pakistani etc immigration, it's stopped being about "who's native Scots white" some time back. We don't really know and it's kind of difficult to tell.

I have got a friend who traces one side of his family back to the 1800s in Scotland, his dad however is Irish Catholic and moved over a couple of years before he was born. My nieces have a mixed heritage, as do I in a different way. Scottish National Party MSPs in our Parliament are a mixed group They are all Nats even if their parents or themselves were originally from France or Pakistan or Kenya. They came here or were born here and became Scots, in fact they're a lot more militant than I am about being Scottish, because Nats :D

I think what I am trying to say is that it has got so complex that we don't know. I'm a bit more optimistic than OKToBe, who is on the No side of Independence 8-) which, fair play to her. I can see an independent socialist Scotland where all citizens want to be part of the project, no matter what colour their skin or what their background is, and we'll just all be Scots together, no matter if our dad was from anywhere and our mum was from anywhere else. It might not happen, but I'm hoping :)

[OkToBeTakei]

Ok, now I'm totally confused. When I said native, I meant descendants of the original inhabitants of Scots and Irish. It wasn't in any way related to the posts about Sweden. Did that make sense?

Sorry! Probably me confusing you. I thought by your comment you meant or thought non-Scots were not welcome which kind of did not make sense considering how multi-cultural Scotland is. Whilst not on the level of multi-cuturism as say the US you still would be surprised at how many people can not track back to two or three generations of Scottish heritage. It's not all sweetness and light don't get me wrong it's hard to find somewhere that is :(

[latraviata]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... geous.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-secular

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Un ... versities/

[OkToBeTakei]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10469532/Allowing-university-speakers-to-segregate-genders-is-outrageous.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-secular

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Un ... versities/

And what?

So universities have a issued a guideline in external speakers requesting gender segregation.

1. It is a 'guideline.'

2. Nobody is being made to attend if they don't want to. They are voluntary external speakers of a particular religion.

3. The biggest issue appears to be equal segregation as in side by side rather than front back.

But obviously as you keep rather boringly posting the same crap day after day it is proof the evil Muslims are taking over.

[Terrie]

What I'd like to know is if Muslims are such a problem, why aren't we seeing it here in the US? As I mentioned, the news story posted by the OP is happening in my home town. The Somali population has been here, locally, for about 20 years now. It numbers in the thousands, the largest such community in the US. If the problem was the Muslims, we should be overrun with issues. And while it's not problem free, for the most part it's not a big deal. So either the vast majority of problem-causing immigrants are going to Europe instead of the US, or there's a difference in the countries.

I suspect that the difference is that the US is more comfortable being multicultural and navigating the issues that do arise, so that when there are problems, no one but the extremists insists the sky is falling. We just accept "Yeah, there are issues, there may always be some issues, but the pluses outweigh the minuses." Where as Europeans seem to be determined to pretend that any issues would just go away if immigrants would play nice.

[latraviata]

And what?

So universities have a issued a guideline in external speakers requesting gender segregation.

1. It is a 'guideline.'

2. Nobody is being made to attend if they don't want to. They are voluntary external speakers of a particular religion.

3. The biggest issue appears to be equal segregation as in side by side rather than front back.

But obviously as you keep rather boringly posting the same crap day after day it is proof the evil Muslims are taking over.

It is really laughable how you come up with stupid (non) arguments to justify something so wrong and alarming. You must be either suffering from delusions or just plain ignorant.