Fox News finally has proof that Sharia Law is taking over us

[latraviata]

:lol: Have a safe journey! Here it's Wednesday!

I was thinking about this thread driving to town and here is an anecdotal shoot myself moment.

A few years ago it was very likely Mr Ok's new project would be Saudi based. I was initially very excited which was very quickly followed by as long as little Miss OK can go to either a British or American school. Also I imagine we would have been viewed as ex-pat, not as 'immigrants.'

It is a very strange world we inhabit.

I lived in different countries on the Arabian peninsula. Expats because you are supposed to return back to your country.

[Clementine]

Clementine, whenever a marginalized group complains about harassment, the response is "well, I haven't seen it, there is no proof".

And sometimes that is because it isn't happening, and other times that is because the speaker isn't in a position to observe it or simply doesn't want to see it. It's hard to say from the outside which it is.

Interestingly, I just today read an article about a secret police register of 4000 Roma in Sweden. It always seems to me that prejudice against Roma and prejudice against Jews tend to happen together.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25200449

Absolutely, that's why I am not saying that it doesn't happen, I am just saying that I find it curious that no evidence is presented. At this day and age with all the electronic surveillance and all the mobile phones who can take photos, record sound and film, there should be some evidence so people can be prosecuted.

About the Roma register: When the news broke, the headlines screamed "The police has a secret Roma register". It is illegal to register people based only on their ethnic or religious background, so this would have been a big scandal, if it was true.

When the police and the state prosecutors investigated it, it turns out that this is an ordinary police file that is used to monitor criminal networks and find connections between people that are involved in crimes.

The police have files of people who are involved with and connected to criminal motorcycle gangs, different mafia groups and other criminal networks.

This file monitored a group of people who have been involved in criminal activities in the south of Sweden and a lot of them happened to be of Roma origin. Not all of them though, and nowhere in the register their ethnic background was mentioned.

But yes, a lot of them had Roma names.

I guess that if you make a register of the mafia in New Jersey there will be a lot of Italian sounding names and in the Hell's Angels file there will be a lot of Danish names. If I had a relative who was involved in organized crime, my name probably would pop up in a file. (Maybe it does? But I will never know because only the police has access to the files.)

After the investigation, the police was criticised because the file contained too many names of people who are not directly involved in crimes, such as children of the people who were suspects.

According to the police they usually have the names of the children in their registers so they know if there will be children in the home if they do a house search or if they have to contact social services.

If a car registered on a person was used in a crime, the owner will be in the file even if the person is not convicted of a crime. If a mobile phone that is registered on a four year old is used in a crime, the four year old will be in the file.

If a person has a storage unit that has been rented by one of the suspects, the name will be in the file.

The other critique the police got is that have stored the data for too long.

The register contained 4029 names. The police looked into 1235 of the names of the now living adults, randomly selected, and 625 of the 1235 had been convicted of or had been involved in crimes.

Other investigations are ongoing so I guess that more reports will come.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know if this is an example of sharia law, but it is not uncomplicated that we in the west has fought for equal rights for men and women, democracy and an open society, the possibility for women to public places and not suffer harrassment and now we have a group of immigrants who demand that we reinstate gender segregation.

In Sweden we see it in public funded swimming pools, tax funded schools, political debates where muslims demand that the women should be seated in the back and will harass them if they say anything and so on. I wish that people in my country, especially the so called feminists, would stand up and say NO, we have fought for equal rights for 200 years and will not back down, but it's quiet, oh so quiet.

Separate hours at a pool may seem quite harmless, but our fear of standing up for our rights have now led to public pools in cities with a large immigrant population from the Middle East and North Africa are dangerous to visit for women. Sexual harrassments and threats are everyday occurrances if Swedish looking women go there. There have also been a number of rapes, some child rapes, in our swimming pools. There has never been any need for guards at our swimming pools before, because the staff could deal with the few sitations that occured. Now a lot of public swimming pools have to have one or two guards. Same thing with public libraries and the ERs in areas with a lot of immigrants.

That's one result of what happens when you out of some misguided respect for other cultures refuse to stand up for your own.

I also wonder if people in this thread would be so supportive, understanding and positive if it was American fundies that demanded special hours just for the girls in public pools.

Are muslim fundamentalists ok, but christian fundies are not?

My city offers women-only swimming hours at a couple of pools. It's only a few hours per week. It is not restricted to Muslims - any woman who wants may attend.

Please tell me, how exactly do a few hours of women-only swimming impact on anyone's rights?

Don't give me a slippery-slope argument about immigrants committing rape. The answer to men harassing women or committing rape is to enforce the law and protect the public. Allowing women a few hours of private swim time has nothing to do with men behaving badly.

Here's a novel idea: Focus on things that are actually problems, rather than simply demonizing an entire group. Then, draw a clear distinction between accommodating legitimate personal religious observances, and allowing hateful or illegal behavior. Give people a sense that they are a part of the country, and have a stake in its values.

I'm a part of a minority religious group that also has some weird religious observances, is sometimes insular and even has women who use women-only swimming times. I see local officials going out of their way to respect the fact that many cultures and religions are represented here. We get sermons from the pulpit telling us how municipal government, police, hospitals, etc. have welcomed and accommodated us, and how we should be grateful to live in a multicultural and democratic society, and we should be active and full participants and contribute to that society.

[OkToBeTakei]

I lived in different countries on the Arabian peninsula. Expats because you are supposed to return back to your country.

Actually no.

An expatriate (sometimes shortened to expat) is a person temporarily or permanently residing in a country other than that of the person's upbringing. The word comes from the Latin terms ex ("out of") and patria ("country, fatherland").

In common usage, the term is often used in the context of professionals or skilled workers sent abroad by their companies,[1] rather than for all 'immigrants' or 'migrant workers'. The differentiation found in common usage usually comes down to socio-economic factors, so skilled professionals working in another country are described as expatriates, whereas a manual labourer who has moved to another country to earn more money might be labelled an 'immigrant' or 'migrant worker'.

[latraviata]

Actually yes. You can't trust every website or blog, remember? Low-skilled workers are expats as well, or better 'slaves'. Have you actually lived there as an expat? No, do you live in Sweden or in the Netherlands, no.

So what the hell are you talking about??!

[OkToBeTakei]

Actually yes. You can't trust every website or blog, remember? Low-skilled workers are expats as well, or better 'slaves'. Have you actually lived there as an expat? No, do you live in Sweden or in the Netherlands, no.

So what the hell are you talking about??!

Just looking for intelligent debate. Using 'at least' non-sensational sources. Of course even reputable sites have bias. Definition of language though tends to be universal.

I was unaware one had to live in a country to have an opinion. I suppose that makes this whole forum absolutely pointless. Damn.

[Clementine]

My city offers women-only swimming hours at a couple of pools. It's only a few hours per week. It is not restricted to Muslims - any woman who wants may attend.

Please tell me, how exactly do a few hours of women-only swimming impact on anyone's rights?

Don't give me a slippery-slope argument about immigrants committing rape. The answer to men harassing women or committing rape is to enforce the law and protect the public. Allowing women a few hours of private swim time has nothing to do with men behaving badly.

Here's a novel idea: Focus on things that are actually problems, rather than simply demonizing an entire group. Then, draw a clear distinction between accommodating legitimate personal religious observances, and allowing hateful or illegal behavior. Give people a sense that they are a part of the country, and have a stake in its values.

I'm a part of a minority religious group that also has some weird religious observances, is sometimes insular and even has women who use women-only swimming times. I see local officials going out of their way to respect the fact that many cultures and religions are represented here. We get sermons from the pulpit telling us how municipal government, police, hospitals, etc. have welcomed and accommodated us, and how we should be grateful to live in a multicultural and democratic society, and we should be active and full participants and contribute to that society.

Like I wrote earlier in the thread, a few hour of gender segregation in the public funded pools may seem like a small thing. And it is. But do the groups of people who now demand a backlash in our equality work get their women-only hours of swimming and are happy with it? It general, no. It doesn't stop there.

The same groups have demanded that children shouldn't be allowed to participate in the mandatory biology classes about sexuality, not participate in the mandatory physical education classes or have gender segregated classes, be excused from the mandatory religious classes that teaches other religions other than their own, that girls should be seated in the back of the classroom and can't sit next to boys, men and women can't sit in the same waiting rooms at public places such as doctors's waiting rooms, women doctors can't treat men because men aren't allowed to be touched by women... in the end there are so many demands that if we would give in to them all, there will be an even greater segregation, both regarding gender and ethnic and religious backgrounds and women will be discriminated. Where do we draw the line when it comes to tax-funded activities?

I think the authorities clearly should show that both genders have the same rights and that there should be no special rules in school because of a person's religion. Our government has laid out a curriculum that all schools must follow, or else they break the law.

Maybe it's difficult to understand as an American since you have a long tradition of how the government shouldn't interfere and homeschooling without any particular curriculums or tests are legal in many states.

[Conuly]

Like I wrote earlier in the thread, a few hour of gender segregation in the public funded pools may seem like a small thing. And it is. But do the groups of people who now demand a backlash in our equality work get their women-only hours of swimming and are happy with it? It general, no. It doesn't stop there.

The same groups have demanded that children shouldn't be allowed to participate in the mandatory biology classes about sexuality, not participate in the mandatory physical education classes or have gender segregated classes, be excused from the mandatory religious classes that teaches other religions other than their own, that girls should be seated in the back of the classroom and can't sit next to boys, men and women can't sit in the same waiting rooms at public places such as doctors's waiting rooms, women doctors can't treat men because men aren't allowed to be touched by women... in the end there are so many demands that if we would give in to them all, there will be an even greater segregation, both regarding gender and ethnic and religious backgrounds and women will be discriminated. Where do we draw the line?

Yeah, that's a fallacy. It's right up there with "next thing we know, people will be marrying their dogs". We can rightly allow women-only pool times and still draw the line at not letting men and women share a waiting room. We don't have to jump off that slippery slope if we don't want to.

That's one result of what happens when you out of some misguided respect for other cultures refuse to stand up for your own.

What, child rape? I don't think that's part of other cultures, and it's beyond racist to claim it is.

[2xx1xy1JD]

OKTBT:

Actually, in Ontario, Canada, a proposal to allow Muslims to choose sharia-based arbitration for family law cases resulted in enough backlash that the government did an about-face and suddenly banned ALL religious-based family arbitration.

[Arbitration is like a private court process. The law says that people can choose to go to an arbitrator instead of going to court. If they sign an arbitration agreement, they agree that whatever decision the arbitator makes can be enforced by the courts, and can only be overturned if there was some sort of glaring legal mistake or unfairness.]

Here's an article on what happened:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... rians.html

In a nutshell: overnight, the religious arbitration system for family law that had been used by religious Jews since 1991 - and which seemed to be working well without any major complaints - was banned.

[Clementine]

Yeah, that's a fallacy. It's right up there with "next thing we know, people will be marrying their dogs". We can rightly allow women-only pool times and still draw the line at not letting men and women share a waiting room. We don't have to jump off that slippery slope if we don't want to.

What, child rape? I don't think that's part of other cultures, and it's beyond racist to claim it is.

Absolutely and I wish our government and would take a clear stand on what we should tolerate and not, but they don't. In general, the person who will make a biggest fuss will win and I don't think that's acceptable.

Gender segregation and removing our own traditions and symbols are what happens when you out of misguided respect for other cultures refuse to stand up for your own, is what I meant. I should have been more specific.

Ten million children are married married off every year and they have sex with their spouses so yes, technically child rape, as we see it, is part of some cultures.

http://plan-international.org/girls/child-marriage.php

[Conuly]

Ten million children are married married off every year and they have sex with their spouses so yes, technically child rape, as we see it, is part of some cultures.

Point taken. What does this have to do with the aforementioned child rape in a swimming pool?

Gender segregation and removing our own traditions and symbols are what happens when you out of misguided respect for other cultures refuse to stand up for your own, is what I meant. I should have been more specific.

Can you give some examples? Aside from swimming pools and gym classes, that's been done.

[Clementine]

Point taken. What does this have to do with the aforementioned child rape in a swimming pool?

Can you give some examples? Aside from swimming pools and gym classes, that's been done.

I was trying to show the reality in many public swimming pools in Sweden. 20 years ago, it was a place where people went to swim and exercise and sexual harrassments and rapes were extremely rare. No guards were needed - the thought was ridiculous. Women went there without feeling insecure. The situation is very different today and many women or child families have stopped visiting the pools, especially in certain areas.

I have given a lot of examples in the reply above of other common occurring situations.

[OkToBeTakei]

OKTBT:

Actually, in Ontario, Canada, a proposal to allow Muslims to choose sharia-based arbitration for family law cases resulted in enough backlash that the government did an about-face and suddenly banned ALL religious-based family arbitration.

[Arbitration is like a private court process. The law says that people can choose to go to an arbitrator instead of going to court. If they sign an arbitration agreement, they agree that whatever decision the arbitator makes can be enforced by the courts, and can only be overturned if there was some sort of glaring legal mistake or unfairness.]

Here's an article on what happened:

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... rians.html

In a nutshell: overnight, the religious arbitration system for family law that had been used by religious Jews since 1991 - and which seemed to be working well without any major complaints - was banned.

I do understand what you are saying 2xx but in the context of this thread the OP was saying that Sharia law was condoned by the UK government whilst what you describe is actually the case. It has been driven underground by overly zealous and misrepresentation by the more anti-Muslim lobby and whilst most Sharia law as seen by the ZOMG the poor women it's archaic, it actually has merit in communities and has had for centuries. As somebody up thread noted it is used in business practice amongst other not so nefarious issues. That though is not what immediately jumps to mind the moment the word is mentioned.

By driving it underground as the report you mentioned sited it does actually make nigh impossible to ascertain when and if it is being used inappropriately.

[OkToBeTakei]

I was trying to show the reality in many public swimming pools in Sweden. 20 years ago, it was a place where people went to swim and exercise and sexual harrassments and rapes were extremely rare. No guards were needed - the thought was ridiculous. Women went there without feeling insecure. The situation is very different today and many women or child families have stopped visiting the pools, especially in certain areas.

I have given a lot of examples in the reply above of other common occurring situations.

But no actual factual evidence to support this statement of abuse at swimming pools.

[JesusFightClub]

Like I wrote earlier in the thread, a few hour of gender segregation in the public funded pools may seem like a small thing. And it is. But do the groups of people who now demand a backlash in our equality work get their women-only hours of swimming and are happy with it? It general, no. It doesn't stop there.

I do not get this at all.

The group of people who asked for women-only swimming in my home town were...women. White women. Christian women, if anything at all, but not fundies. There isn't much in the way of multiculturalism where I'm from. It's got a bit more diverse, but not by much.

The reason they did it was because they were shy about showing up in swimsuits in front of men. Not because they thought there would be a mass rape session or Christian modesty prevented them, but because they wanted to wear a swimsuit (not burkinis, they drag) without feeling they were on display. It was really that simple.

I think it probably did stop there, my town not being noted for its political correctness :shock: Why is the idea of women not wanting to swim alongside men so controversial and weird, part of a slippery slope? Men might not want to swim next to women. It might just be a bit of body shyness.

Until I see evidence that a group of Somali girls wanting to swim where men can't see them wearing swimsuits is the thin end of the wedge and the next thing that will happen is total sharia law (or indeed any moves towards it), I'm not impressed. There are all-female choirs here in the UK too. Is that evidence that women are proceeding to an anti-men society, or is it only creepy when the Other does it? If the all-female choir is started by a white atheist, is it less scary than if a black Muslim starts it?

[Clementine]

But no actual factual evidence to support this statement of abuse at swimming pools.

I did a quick googling and the first articles I could find:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10774586.ab

http://www.dn.se/sthlm/en-gripen-missta ... pa-badhus/

http://www.news24.se/nyheter/999983_fly ... -aring.php

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/man-val ... dalsbadet/

[Mama Mia]

Like I wrote earlier in the thread, a few hour of gender segregation in the public funded pools may seem like a small thing. And it is. But do the groups of people who now demand a backlash in our equality work get their women-only hours of swimming and are happy with it? It general, no. It doesn't stop there.

The same groups have demanded that children shouldn't be allowed to participate in the mandatory biology classes about sexuality, not participate in the mandatory physical education classes or have gender segregated classes, be excused from the mandatory religious classes that teaches other religions other than their own, that girls should be seated in the back of the classroom and can't sit next to boys, men and women can't sit in the same waiting rooms at public places such as doctors's waiting rooms, women doctors can't treat men because men aren't allowed to be touched by women... in the end there are so many demands that if we would give in to them all, there will be an even greater segregation, both regarding gender and ethnic and religious backgrounds and women will be discriminated. Where do we draw the line when it comes to tax-funded activities?

I think the authorities clearly should show that both genders have the same rights and that there should be no special rules in school because of a person's religion. Our government has laid out a curriculum that all schools must follow, or else they break the law.

Maybe it's difficult to understand as an American since you have a long tradition of how the government shouldn't interfere and homeschooling without any particular curriculums or tests are legal in many states.

I think you make some very interesting points. I, personally, think VOLUNTARY gender segregation for things like swimming, choosing a physician etc. is an acceptable alternative. But that is based on living in a country where that is an everyday thing. Same with choosing to allow your children to attend sex ed. And all the other things you listed.

I might have a very different view if I came from your country and people were felt to be forcing these things that were felt to be regressive. I don't know the answer, it's always a hard balance between maintaining culture, and respecting the culture of the country.

I do agree that it seems like in some circles it's okay to bash Christian fundamentalists, but give Muslim fundamentalists a pass for the exact same things. And then you have other segments of society where the exact opposite is true.

[Conuly]

But what exactly is the connection between one or two segregated swim sessions today and rape and harassment tomorrow? I'm not seeing it, I'm sorry. And you also haven't shown any example of your traditions being forcibly taken from you.

[Clementine]

I do not get this at all.

The group of people who asked for women-only swimming in my home town were...women. White women. Christian women, if anything at all, but not fundies. There isn't much in the way of multiculturalism where I'm from. It's got a bit more diverse, but not by much.

The reason they did it was because they were shy about showing up in swimsuits in front of men. Not because they thought there would be a mass rape session or Christian modesty prevented them, but because they wanted to wear a swimsuit (not burkinis, they drag) without feeling they were on display. It was really that simple.

I think it probably did stop there, my town not being noted for its political correctness :shock: Why is the idea of women not wanting to swim alongside men so controversial and weird, part of a slippery slope? Men might not want to swim next to women. It might just be a bit of body shyness.

Until I see evidence that a group of Somali girls wanting to swim where men can't see them wearing swimsuits is the thin end of the wedge and the next thing that will happen is total sharia law (or indeed any moves towards it), I'm not impressed. There are all-female choirs here in the UK too. Is that evidence that women are proceeding to an anti-men society, or is it only creepy when the Other does it? If the all-female choir is started by a white atheist, is it less scary than if a black Muslim starts it?

It doesn't have to be a slippery slope, but it is not the only area where there are demands for gender segregation. In general I think that tax money should be spent on working for equality, not gender segregation. What people chose to spend their own money on and if they want to start private projects with whatever rules they want is a different thing.

[OkToBeTakei]

I did a quick googling and the first articles I could find:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article10774586.ab

http://www.dn.se/sthlm/en-gripen-missta ... pa-badhus/

http://www.news24.se/nyheter/999983_fly ... -aring.php

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/man-val ... dalsbadet/

I don't speak anything other than English to my shame. I am not doubting that there are instances of crimes committed by immigrants in any country. There are many threads here on FJ about just that issue in regards to Roma in many European countries and as you can imagine the lively debate that ensues.

It may be the tone or the fact that another poster is posting after you sensational type anti-Muslim propaganda that is colouring my view of your points. The fact is though that even 20 years ago there were pervs at swimming pools. That you see this type of segregation as dangerous or your perception that your government is not addressing it. What though is concerning is that a little bit like the Borg Collective is the way in which you reference the Muslims in your nation as one malevolent entity.

[Conuly]

I had to google translate the articles. Four articles, four rapes. Three of them do not give the ethnicity of the rapist or victim. One of those was a male-on-male rape, possibly homophobicly motivated, the article says (in translation) that the victim had flirted with the perpetrator prior to being raped.

The last does say that the rapist was a refugee on an outing with a group or children's home, states that following the rape a right wing racist group retaliated with an egging, and then goes on to state that "many" blame multiculturalism for the rape, which occurred at a pool designed to look Islamic, and that multiculturalism came to Sweden at the behest of the Jews and the Sami. However, no proof seems to be given of any connection between the multiculturalism and the rape, though I acknowledge that machine translates leave something to be desired.

[Clementine]

But what exactly is the connection between one or two segregated swim sessions today and rape and harassment tomorrow? I'm not seeing it, I'm sorry. And you also haven't shown any example of your traditions being forcibly taken from you.

Examples of Swedish traditions that have been removed not to offend or exclude people are anything that is related to christianity in school. Even though religion isn't a big thing for most Swedes, we have very strong traditions that come from a christian background such as celebrating the end of the school year in the local church of Sweden (no religious service, just singing and non-religious speeches and organ music) that was a state church until the year 2000, celebrating Lucia in schools, lighting advent candles and reading about the origin of our celebration, christmas related crafts, going to church the Friday before the first of advent and yes - stop calling the Christmas break just that and change it to Winter break.

Some traditions are illegal now, such as celebrating the end of the school year in church and going there on advent the first. Lucia is allowed but skipped or toned down in many schools, I don't think that lighting advent candles are allowed anymore and other things are just skipped or changed not to be insensitive, like changing the name of the Christmas break.

I don't understand why. They are traditions that have been celebrated for 100+ years in our schools, people can be excused from participating if they want to, like the students who were Jehova's wittnesses in my school and since most Swedes end up being atheists or not interested in religion at all, it can hardly qualify as religious indoctrination. They are just beautiful traditions that now are banned.

[Clementine]

I had to google translate the articles. Four articles, four rapes. Three of them do not give the ethnicity of the rapist or victim. One of those was a male-on-male rape, possibly homophobicly motivated, the article says (in translation) that the victim had flirted with the perpetrator prior to being raped.

The last does say that the rapist was a refugee on an outing with a group or children's home, states that following the rape a right wing racist group retaliated with an egging, and then goes on to state that "many" blame multiculturalism for the rape, which occurred at a pool designed to look Islamic, and that multiculturalism came to Sweden at the behest of the Jews and the Sami. However, no proof seems to be given of any connection between the multiculturalism and the rape, though I acknowledge that machine translates leave something to be desired.

Four of the rapes were by a different ethnic origins - the only one I am not sure about is the 19-year old who was raped. I try to find the name of the person who was prosecuted but come up with nothing. The first statement said that three boys were involved in the rape, but only one was prosecuted.

The 11-year old was abused by a groups of single arriving immigrants under 18 who live in a state home and went to the pool with the staff from the home.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Extremism is a real issue. I'll be the first in line to point that out.

It's not helpful, though, to confuse genuine issues of extremism with automatic objection to anything remotely Muslim.

Here are some examples for you:

Look at how FJ tends to deal with Christian fundies. It's not OMG some Christians moved onto my street and some are going to church and putting up Xmas lights! There's a section outlining the main sources of fundie thinking - Vision Forum, Gothard, the Pearls, etc. We look at how certain ideas start in more extreme religious quarters, and then hit the mainstream - for example, many people see the Duggars on tv who are not fundie homeschoolers.

I'm fully on board with doing the same thing with Islamic fundies. I don't care if someone wants to eat halal food or wear a hijab. I do care, though, about how the teachings of Syed Qutb are presented today. I do care if ideology from the Muslim Brotherhood plays a role in Muslim Student Associations. I do care if massive funding from Saudi sources results in a more fundamentalist and intolerant version of Islam being promoted in mosques, Muslim Student Associations and other organizations. I do care if Ahmadiyyah Muslims are declared to be non-Muslims by the Muslim World League. I do care about possible links between CAIR and Hamas. I do care if Dr. Mohammed Elmasry, speaking as head of the lslamic Congress of Canada, said on the Michael Coren show in 2004 that anyone and everyone over 18 in Israel is a legitimate target, and if he continues to be honored by that organization. I do care if Haroon Siddiqui, former editorial page editor of Canada's largest newspaper, complains that the Canadian government gives the cold shoulder to main organizations of the Canadian Muslim community while talking to "a handful of dissidents", without mentioning that this "main organization" was the one led by Dr. Elmasry and the "dissident" was founded by a man who is a prominant moderate Muslim who is a firm opponent of extremism and who wrote a book entitled "The Jew is Not My Enemy".

When you engage in blanket condemnation of anything Muslim, or focus on trivia, or try to restrict legitimate religious rights, you stop focusing on the real issues, and the important questions don't get asked.

[Clementine]

Extremism is a real issue. I'll be the first in line to point that out.

It's not helpful, though, to confuse genuine issues of extremism with automatic objection to anything remotely Muslim.

Here are some examples for you:

Look at how FJ tends to deal with Christian fundies. It's not OMG some Christians moved onto my street and some are going to church and putting up Xmas lights! There's a section outlining the main sources of fundie thinking - Vision Forum, Gothard, the Pearls, etc. We look at how certain ideas start in more extreme religious quarters, and then hit the mainstream - for example, many people see the Duggars on tv who are not fundie homeschoolers.

I'm fully on board with doing the same thing with Islamic fundies. I don't care if someone wants to eat halal food or wear a hijab. I do care, though, about how the teachings of Syed Qutb are presented today. I do care if ideology from the Muslim Brotherhood plays a role in Muslim Student Associations. I do care if massive funding from Saudi sources results in a more fundamentalist and intolerant version of Islam being promoted in mosques, Muslim Student Associations and other organizations. I do care if Ahmadiyyah Muslims are declared to be non-Muslims by the Muslim World League. I do care about possible links between CAIR and Hamas. I do care if Dr. Mohammed Elmasry, speaking as head of the lslamic Congress of Canada, said on the Michael Coren show in 2004 that anyone and everyone over 18 in Israel is a legitimate target, and if he continues to be honored by that organization. I do care if Haroon Siddiqui, former editorial page editor of Canada's largest newspaper, complains that the Canadian government gives the cold shoulder to main organizations of the Canadian Muslim community while talking to "a handful of dissidents", without mentioning that this "main organization" was the one led by Dr. Elmasry and the "dissident" was founded by a man who is a prominant moderate Muslim who is a firm opponent of extremism and who wrote a book entitled "The Jew is Not My Enemy".

When you engage in blanket condemnation of anything Muslim, or focus on trivia, or try to restrict legitimate religious rights, you stop focusing on the real issues, and the important questions don't get asked.

I hope I haven't made any blanket statements about muslims in general. That has not been my intent and if it has come across that way, I am sorry and blame some of it on English not being my first language.

The muslims I am writing about are the muslims that engage in these kind of activities - not all muslims are the same or have the same demands. I really don't know what I should call the specific groups of muslims that I am referring to. Extremists make me think of the muslims who commit terrorist acts and that is many many levels above asking for gender segregation.

When we snark on christian fundies, we mainly snark on trivia and little on the big issues like trying to change legislation. I would love if more threads would focus on the big issues and big players and not only about crunchy hair or kefir pets or ugly dresses.

I don't know where I have advocated trying to restrict legitimate religious rights? I