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Fox News finally has proof that Sharia Law is taking over us


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It is really laughable how you come up with stupid (non) arguments to justify something so wrong and alarming. You must be either suffering from delusions or just plain ignorant.

Of course.

Suffice to say with some of the totally ludicrous and downright stupid links you have posted recently along with the above type of petty personal response to reasonable debate, your opinion has ceased to matter really.

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What I'd like to know is if Muslims are such a problem, why aren't we seeing it here in the US? As I mentioned, the news story posted by the OP is happening in my home town. The Somali population has been here, locally, for about 20 years now. It numbers in the thousands, the largest such community in the US. If the problem was the Muslims, we should be overrun with issues. And while it's not problem free, for the most part it's not a big deal. So either the vast majority of problem-causing immigrants are going to Europe instead of the US, or there's a difference in the countries.

I suspect that the difference is that the US is more comfortable being multicultural and navigating the issues that do arise, so that when there are problems, no one but the extremists insists the sky is falling. We just accept "Yeah, there are issues, there may always be some issues, but the pluses outweigh the minuses." Where as Europeans seem to be determined to pretend that any issues would just go away if immigrants would play nice.

I don't know what United States you live in, but to suggest that people in the U.S. Are super welcoming towards multiple cultures is incredibly naive. I, personally, don't live in an area with a large number of Muslims so can't speak to those issues. But if you look at the hostility shown currently to Latino immigrants you wouldn't be going on about how accepting the U.S. is.

Also, a quick google shows that the proportion of Muslims in Sweden is much higher than in the U.S., so it would make sense that more issues with cultural conflict might arise.

I think the FOX news piece was inflammatory and there is nothing wrong with the gender segregated classes. But I do think there is a tendency to jump to the conclusion that any criticism of extremist Muslims is a criticism of ALL Muslims and for people to point out all the bad things that extremist Christians do and how those are the real "bad guys". Just like in the thread about rap music and misogyny ...everyone had to point out how it isn't just rap and list all the other bad music.

Doing back flips to say all of a particular racial/ethnic/religous/national/cultural/socio-economic group is fantastic, nothing bad ever happens in said group and besides don't forget that the dominant group is much worse isn't any less racist than saying the opposite- that all of x group is full of bad stereotypes. It's less harmful racism, but it's also extremely patronizing.

Sorry if this is incoherent, no coffee yet! And I used the term racism even though that isn't exactly right, but couldn't come up with other terms off the top of my head.

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What I'd like to know is if Muslims are such a problem, why aren't we seeing it here in the US? As I mentioned, the news story posted by the OP is happening in my home town. The Somali population has been here, locally, for about 20 years now. It numbers in the thousands, the largest such community in the US. If the problem was the Muslims, we should be overrun with issues. And while it's not problem free, for the most part it's not a big deal. So either the vast majority of problem-causing immigrants are going to Europe instead of the US, or there's a difference in the countries.

I suspect that the difference is that the US is more comfortable being multicultural and navigating the issues that do arise, so that when there are problems, no one but the extremists insists the sky is falling. We just accept "Yeah, there are issues, there may always be some issues, but the pluses outweigh the minuses." Where as Europeans seem to be determined to pretend that any issues would just go away if immigrants would play nice.

The USA is build on immigrants, apart from the native Americans you could say everybody is an immigrant. Europe faces a wave of immigrants the last decades and our gouvernments find it hard to deal with it. The difference is also in the legislation and demands made on immigrants. I believe your laws and culture do more appeal to the independence and self reliance than our countries did. As far as the Netherlands are concerned, we have a very small country, approximately the size of the state of Maryland and over 17 million inhabitants. People coming to this country had full social benefits (and more) and almost immediately the Dutch nationality at the same time retaining their own nationality. No conditions, no minimum knowledge of the language or the Netherlands as a country and it's mores. Everything is heavely subsidised, mosques, islamic schools, billions and billions are spent on integration projects, cultural events, even for specific muslim houses because they need a larger house (seperate male/female parts in the house) , the list is long and disturbing and (not in the least for you Americans) utterly ridiculous. One example, a vacantion butterfly catching for young muslim delinquents.

The Somalie community obviously rent the swimming pool at their own expense, this is not the case in my country, everything is paid by the taxpayer.

The Netherlands is a country with a history of being very hospitable towards asylum seekers. We have large Chinese, Vietnamese Korean, South American and so many more, no problem other than the islam at all. It is not pick and choose, it is not racism it ius based on facts, figures and great concern.

Another 'ridiculous' link with some figures.

http://www.euro-islam.info/country-prof ... therlands/

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Mrs S2004 is correct that America isn't all rainbows and butterflies when it comes to immigration. We have recently(as in the last 15 years) have had a huge influx of Hispanic immigrants move to the area I live in and many people act like it is the end of the world as we know it. They are stealing our jobs, living off welfare, having babies as teens, making our schools and parks more violent, speaking a language we don't understand, eat Mexican food that isn't the kind we are used to, and they just need to go back to where they came from*.

We don't have a large population of Muslim people here, but the few that are here are viewed as scary and most likely terrorists. If we had a larger population I think that there would be more problems. America is less accepting then a lot of people think.

*I feel like I need to have a HUGE disclaimer saying that this isn't what I believe but it is what many people claim.

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Mrs S2004 is correct that America isn't all rainbows and butterflies when it comes to immigration. We have recently(as in the last 15 years) have had a huge influx of Hispanic immigrants move to the area I live in and many people act like it is the end of the world as we know it. They are stealing our jobs, living off welfare, having babies as teens, making our schools and parks more violent, speaking a language we don't understand, eat Mexican food that isn't the kind we are used to, and they just need to go back to where they came from*.

We don't have a large population of Muslim people here, but the few that are here are viewed as scary and most likely terrorists. If we had a larger population I think that there would be more problems. America is less accepting then a lot of people think.

*I feel like I need to have a HUGE disclaimer saying that this isn't what I believe but it is what many people claim.

Just to be clear, I am not exactly thrilled about the right wing parties.

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I don't know what United States you live in, but to suggest that people in the U.S. Are super welcoming towards multiple cultures is incredibly naive. I, personally, don't live in an area with a large number of Muslims so can't speak to those issues. But if you look at the hostility shown currently to Latino immigrants you wouldn't be going on about how accepting the U.S. is.

Also, a quick google shows that the proportion of Muslims in Sweden is much higher than in the U.S., so it would make sense that more issues with cultural conflict might arise.

I think the FOX news piece was inflammatory and there is nothing wrong with the gender segregated classes. But I do think there is a tendency to jump to the conclusion that any criticism of extremist Muslims is a criticism of ALL Muslims and for people to point out all the bad things that extremist Christians do and how those are the real "bad guys". Just like in the thread about rap music and misogyny ...everyone had to point out how it isn't just rap and list all the other bad music.

Doing back flips to say all of a particular racial/ethnic/religous/national/cultural/socio-economic group is fantastic, nothing bad ever happens in said group and besides don't forget that the dominant group is much worse isn't any less racist than saying the opposite- that all of x group is full of bad stereotypes. It's less harmful racism, but it's also extremely patronizing.

Sorry if this is incoherent, no coffee yet! And I used the term racism even though that isn't exactly right, but couldn't come up with other terms off the top of my head.

I think you should come back and reread my comment after you have your coffee, because almost nothing you posted had to do with my comments.

First, I noted that I live in the Twin Cities -- the location of the original news story. So I'm massively familiar with the issues involved.

Second, I never said there were no problems. In fact, I explicitly said it is NOT problem-free. Rather, I said that the issues we see are not at the level the European posters are claiming. For instance, I mentioned earlier in the thread that there was a court case involving Somali-Muslim taxi drivers who refused to carry alcohol in their cabs. The courts told them "Nope, not a valid religious accommodation." We have had some extremists with terrorist ties, but they're a very small portion of the whole -- less than 1 in a thousand, and the Somali community as a whole finds this a source of concern and does not support it.

Nor did I ever say that the US is all open-arms to immigrants. I have no clue where you got that claim. I said that the US was comfortable navigating the issues and conflicts that do arise. A very different statement. And, as a country, we also recognize that for all the issues it causes, we probably gain more from immigration as a whole than not. The issues faced by the Latino community are tied to a very specific sub-issue of the use of undocumented workers, and is not 100% an immigration issue. As much as it is an immigration issue, it is also an issue of worker's rights vs. profit margins. The fact that the anti-immigrant side is represented by the likes of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh is a pretty strong indicator that, while they certainly exist and are a not-insignificant portion of the population, they are also very much not mainstream.

Finally, Sweden has approximately 44 thousand Somali immigrants in the whole country among ~9.5 million people. My home town, alone, has 25 thousand among ~3.5 million people. That's almost twice the population density of Somali immigrants. If the problem was just the Somali immigrants, we'd be seeing the same issues on an even larger scale. We aren't. The issues exist, yes, but on a much, much smaller scale. Which tells me that either a) we got "nicer" immigrants, which is juts laughable or b) it's something about that country and its culture that contributes to the scale of the problems. My personal guess is that the issues are being aggravated by countries who are not comfortable with navigating the issues of being multicultural. Just look at some of Clementine's complaints about disliking the idea that not everyone has the exact same "deep-rooted traditions" anymore.

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I think you should come back and reread my comment after you have your coffee, because almost nothing you posted had to do with my comments.

First, I noted that I live in the Twin Cities -- the location of the original news story. So I'm massively familiar with the issues involved.

Second, I never said there were no problems. In fact, I explicitly said it is NOT problem-free. Rather, I said that the issues we see are not at the level the European posters are claiming. For instance, I mentioned earlier in the thread that there was a court case involving Somali-Muslim taxi drivers who refused to carry alcohol in their cabs. The courts told them "Nope, not a valid religious accommodation." We have had some extremists with terrorist ties, but they're a very small portion of the whole -- less than 1 in a thousand, and the Somali community as a whole finds this a source of concern and does not support it.

Nor did I ever say that the US is all open-arms to immigrants. I have no clue where you got that claim. I said that the US was comfortable navigating the issues and conflicts that do arise. A very different statement. And, as a country, we also recognize that for all the issues it causes, we probably gain more from immigration as a whole than not. The issues faced by the Latino community are tied to a very specific sub-issue of the use of undocumented workers, and is not 100% an immigration issue. As much as it is an immigration issue, it is also an issue of worker's rights vs. profit margins. The fact that the anti-immigrant side is represented by the likes of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh is a pretty strong indicator that, while they certainly exist and are a not-insignificant portion of the population, they are also very much not mainstream.

Finally, Sweden has approximately 44 thousand Somali immigrants in the whole country among ~9.5 million people. My home town, alone, has 25 thousand among ~3.5 million people. That's almost twice the population density of Somali immigrants. If the problem was just the Somali immigrants, we'd be seeing the same issues on an even larger scale. We aren't. The issues exist, yes, but on a much, much smaller scale. Which tells me that either a) we got "nicer" immigrants, which is juts laughable or b) it's something about that country and its culture that contributes to the scale of the problems. My personal guess is that the issues are being aggravated by countries who are not comfortable with navigating the issues of being multicultural. Just look at some of Clementine's complaints about disliking the idea that not everyone has the exact same "deep-rooted traditions" anymore.

There, there......

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What I'd like to know is if Muslims are such a problem, why aren't we seeing it here in the US?

I tried to answer that question and I addressed it to your post and I thought you were somewhat more reasonable than some other participants here.

Sorry, my mistake.

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Which tells me that either a) we got "nicer" immigrants, which is juts laughable

I do wonder at times - not specifically here, but generally - about the immigrants who, say, choose Canada or the US or Australia - are they choosing them for very different reasons? In the US, do we get the immigrants who want (no matter how false) the American Dream? Or is it as much as some Americans are anti-immigrant, that so much of our country is predicated on immigration that most just roll with it? I realize that for many immigrants it can be any port in a storm (ie during the Irish Famine, some family was able to come to the US, some went to England, and some stayed in Ireland), but for those with some choosing I do think they might just be more attracted to different aspects of the countries they are going to. (I think this for all immigrant history, not just the US and not just now.)

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I do wonder at times - not specifically here, but generally - about the immigrants who, say, choose Canada or the US or Australia - are they choosing them for very different reasons? In the US, do we get the immigrants who want (no matter how false) the American Dream? Or is it as much as some Americans are anti-immigrant, that so much of our country is predicated on immigration that most just roll with it? I realize that for many immigrants it can be any port in a storm (ie during the Irish Famine, some family was able to come to the US, some went to England, and some stayed in Ireland), but for those with some choosing I do think they might just be more attracted to different aspects of the countries they are going to. (I think this for all immigrant history, not just the US and not just now.)

Fot the Netherlands that would be the social benefits. Monthly income (more than minimum wages) health insurance, free education, child benefits, housing and subsidised religion and special demands going along with it.

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I tried to answer that question and I addressed it to your post and I thought you were somewhat more reasonable than some other participants here.

Sorry, my mistake.

I saw your post about cultural factors in your own country playing a role in the issues after I typed and posted my second post about that aspect. My biggest problem on this thread has been people saying the original story showed that Muslim immigrants everywhere were ruining it for everyone. I think that ignoring the role of the new country's response in things is pretty much guarantees that things are going to get worse, rather than better.

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I am very late to this party but wanted to add my perspective as an American who lived in Scandinavia for a few years. Before moving there, I was so looking forward to being a part of "liberal Europe" for a while. Free health care, free higher education, equal rights and protections for the LGBT community, and living wages for all. I thought I was entering some sort of utopia. And in many ways (in most, I would still say) everything I expected was true. The Scandinavian countries are truly progressive on so many levels and they do it well.

Which made the rampant racism all the more shocking. And disheartening. How can societies otherwise so progressive have such major issues with brown people? It took me a long time to wrap my head around it. And I do agree with Clementine that it stems from the fact that the Scandinavian countries were largely homogeneous until the middle of the last century.

The U.S. still has deep and horrific issues with race. But we also have an established history of having to deal with it. We know how to have the conversations. The white majority already got past the part where they had to admit they were wrong about a lot of things (slavery, indigenous genocide, Jim Crow, and so on and so forth). The Scandinavian countries are just now having to deal with it, and they are floundering. The word "race" is actually taboo in Scandinavia. Um, what?? They haven't even gotten it through their heads that doing away with the word doesn't do away with the racism.

So unfortunately what Clementine has said in this thread and has repeatedly said in past threads regarding the Muslim and Roma communities is pretty much par for the course in her part of the world. I find it deeply saddening that a region that otherwise so values supporting the common good gets this so wrong.

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Fot the Netherlands that would be the social benefits. Monthly income (more than minimum wages) health insurance, free education, child benefits, housing and subsidised religion and special demands going along with it.

So your problem is your government giving all these subsidies to Muslim immigrants?

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I do wonder at times - not specifically here, but generally - about the immigrants who, say, choose Canada or the US or Australia - are they choosing them for very different reasons? In the US, do we get the immigrants who want (no matter how false) the American Dream? Or is it as much as some Americans are anti-immigrant, that so much of our country is predicated on immigration that most just roll with it? I realize that for many immigrants it can be any port in a storm (ie during the Irish Famine, some family was able to come to the US, some went to England, and some stayed in Ireland), but for those with some choosing I do think they might just be more attracted to different aspects of the countries they are going to. (I think this for all immigrant history, not just the US and not just now.)

It's not like the old days when places like the U.S. and Canada had relatively open borders for whoever was willing to come and work and populate the land. Each country has their quotas of who they will take and for what reasons (skilled laborers, refugees, we used to colonize you so now we feel bad and let X of you in each year). Emigrating isn't all that easy if you don't fill some sort of labor quota. In fact, it's nearly impossible if you are poor and unskilled unless you have someone to sponsor you. I'd wager to say that most folks we're referring to in this conversation come as refugees, or the original immigrants in their cultural/ethnic group were at one point. In those situations, countries open up to accept so many refugees from whatever conflict or crisis in a specific location.

Once people leave, most resettling is done through family reunification (bringing over/sponsoring your wife, kids, cousins, whomever). I think that's what builds these initially small seed communities in large part. So no, I think there is very little shopping around for which country has the best welfare state. I'd go so far as to call it a fallacy. It's not possible to be picky about where you're ending up if you are poor, don't speak the language of the country where you seek to go, and don't have an education or job skills that benefit the receiving country. A tiny fraction of the people currently sitting in Syrian refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan are ever going to see Europe or North America. The unlikelihood of it is what leads people onto those rickety boats to drown with their children in the Mediterranean while trying to get to Europe illegally. For most it's their only chance.

Tl;dr Emigrating is hard work and those who make it out are the lucky ones.

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Agreed.

Ease of getting to the new country and being accepted in is the main driving factor. Some countries have a reputation for being easier than others.

Once a core community is established, others come through family reunification, or because someone in the new country told them about the process of getting in and getting settled, or simply because it's more comforting to go someplace where you will have a community where people speak your language and share your culture.

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  • 1 year later...

Well, I somehow missed this thread.  It is late and I need to go to bed, but I will be back tomorrow. Don't worry, not only to comment on the Islam stuff. ;)

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