Duggars, Duggars Everywhere - General Discussion Part 2

[FloraKitty35]

I'd love to get Joshie over a coffee and talk abortion with him. I would smite him,

I'd love to put ex lax in his coffee and replace the word fetal with the word fecal in all of the anti abortion literature that he would have and see how long it takes him to notice the difference. :stir-pot:

[Miggy]

I'd love to get Joshie over a coffee and talk abortion with him. I would smite him,

I'd love to talk to Joshie over a coffee and explain that I had an abortion and I have never regretted it.

[JellyHope]

I'd love to talk to Joshie over a coffee and explain that I had an abortion and I have never regretted it.

I know several women who have had abortions, and they ALL say they have ZERO regrets. I'm sure there's some who maybe do, but it's not a universal truth like anti-choices try to make people believe.

[Mecca]

The more I think about Josh claiming a bunch of ungodly women were chanting "hail Satan!" in Austin, the more I want to smack him with his cheap red tie. What a liar. Here is a guy that whips out his phone at the drop of a hat to document what he ate for lunch, but he somehow forgot to document something that would further his agenda and prove his position on this topic? He was sent there for work, and yet he did not get this on his iPhone.

[uber frau]

Unless they're forcing people who want to keep a pregnancy to abort, I don't think it's a fair comparison or that you can call them "pro-abortion."

You haven't met my MIL. She sounds feminist until you realise that she's of the view that her opinion is the only one that counts. She is a teacher in a very elitist field and I know of several instances when a female student has gotten pg and she's given them the option of having a termination or having her refusing to teach. She's of the opinion that women can't start out in that area unless they have no dependents and she goes as far as booking appointments for her students without telling them. I know of only one woman who's stood up to her (and found another teacher in a different state).

She tried similar tactics on me for every single time I got pg, now she gushed over her grandkids. Bitch.

Eta: I'm not trying.to portray her as anything like the norm. 99.99% of ppl who suppor the right to abort are pro-choice, but there are freaks out there and I happen to have to associate with one.

.

[formergothardite]

You haven't met my MIL. She sounds feminist until you realise that she's of the view that her opinion is the only one that counts. She is a teacher in a very elitist field and I know of several instances when a female student has gotten pg and she's given them the option of having a termination or having her refusing to teach. She's of the opinion that women can't start out in that area unless they have no dependents and she goes as far as booking appointments for her students without telling them. I know of only one woman who's stood up to her (and found another teacher in a different state).

She tried similar tactics on me for every single time I got pg, now she gushed over her grandkids. Bitch.

Eta: I'm not trying.to portray her as anything like the norm. 99.99% of ppl who suppor the right to abort are pro-choice, but there are freaks out there and I happen to have to associate with one.

.

That is horrible. But like you said, she is a freak. I hardly think that there are "plenty" of pro-abortion people out there or that any post here.

[RosyDaisy]

It's just hard for me to say that I'm pro choice when I've been raised in a place where I've been eaten alive if I'd say that, you know? I attend a Christian college, and yeah, I'd be burned at the stake of I say that. You should see the controversy I caused by saying I supported gay marriage... my roommate and I got completely attacked. I do believe in legal, safe, and rare. And so, yeah. It's just hard to accept my viewpoints when it goes SO against the grain of how I was raised and the culture I live in (especially when I know that if anyone in real life saw it, yeah, I would be 100% eaten alive, and I've seen it happen for other things).

BULLSHIT!! I live in Alabama, one of the most fundie states in America. I grew up in pretty much the same culture. I am pro-choice and support gay marriage. I don't give a rat's ass what the people around me think. I most certainly wouldn't call someone who didn't respect my viewpoints a friend.

Stand up for yourself and what you believe. Go against the grain. Nobody will eat you alive unless you let them.

[JellyHope]

DHYu9qAiYw8

People were chanting "hail satan" over his pro life bullshit. I demand video.

The audacity of a woman to decide something about her own body? Fuck you, josh. Just fuck you.

Who the fuck let josh be a moderator? I mean, seriously, how is someone with no experience or education "running" a panel? What gives him any kind of authority or experience besides being the first of many duggars?

edited to fix embed

Arggghhhh. Smuggar talks as if a woman just casually decides, at 5 months pregnant, she just doesn't want to be pregnant anymore. It's just not the fun & games she thought it would be. Yes, Josh, she (& in most cases her partner) have the audacity to end a pregnancy in the case of a horrible health issue discovered that will leave the baby with zero quality of life & possibly even suffering.

[JellyHope]

It's just hard for me to say that I'm pro choice when I've been raised in a place where I've been eaten alive if I'd say that, you know? I attend a Christian college, and yeah, I'd be burned at the stake of I say that. You should see the controversy I caused by saying I supported gay marriage... my roommate and I got completely attacked. I do believe in legal, safe, and rare. And so, yeah. It's just hard to accept my viewpoints when it goes SO against the grain of how I was raised and the culture I live in (especially when I know that if anyone in real life saw it, yeah, I would be 100% eaten alive, and I've seen it happen for other things).

I totally get it, FullMetal. It's hard to shake the connotation that term gives you after being raised to believe it means something evil. When I said, "say it proudly" I was just being silly. You definitely don't need to pronounce your opinions in arenas that it would make you uncomfortable. I've been there! In many of my social circles where I know I'm in the minority (I live in Texas for goodness sake) I'm not shouting out any proclamations. I wish I had the courage sometimes to speak out, and sometimes I do.

[JellyHope]

The more I think about Josh claiming a bunch of ungodly women were chanting "hail Satan!" in Austin, the more I want to smack him with his cheap red tie. What a liar. Here is a guy that whips out his phone at the drop of a hat to document what he ate for lunch, but he somehow forgot to document something that would further his agenda and prove his position on this topic? He was sent there for work, and yet he did not get this on his iPhone.

I live in Austin. I had friends, sisters, and my parents there in the courthouse during Wendy's filibuster. (Is that when he's claiming the hail Santana's happened?) None of them heard anything of the sort.

[GeoBQn]

The "Satanic salute" accusation makes me think of the candlelight vigil I went to after Dr. Tiller's murder. The evening was led by an Episcopalian priest. She read off a list of the doctors and clinic workers who have been murdered. So many of them were active participants in their churches and synagogues--deacons, lay leaders, religious school teachers, board members. She ended with Dr. Tiller, who was gunned down while at church where he served as an usher.

Yes, Smugs, there are people who see no conflict between religion and reproductive freedom. People who consider it part of their moral code to provide women with safe, accessible healthcare.

[Buzzard]

Arggghhhh. Smuggar talks as if a woman just casually decides, at 5 months pregnant, she just doesn't want to be pregnant anymore. It's just not the fun & games she thought it would be. Yes, Josh, she (& in most cases her partner) have the audacity to end a pregnancy in the case of a horrible health issue discovered that will leave the baby with zero quality of life & possibly even suffering.

I can think of two people (off the top of my head) who had to face this. I'll put it in spoilers just in case

1.

Horrific car accident with impalement. Road sign punctured uterus and bladder. Woman was taken into surgery, low sick. Drs had to have husband decide, save baby (maybe - baby was seriously injured by roadsign) and mom may or may not survive, or forget about baby, do a hysterectomy with no attempt to extricate the baby and the bloodflow provided to it and she definitely will survive. He had about 30 seconds, chose the mother. She is fine and they have adopted. As it turns out, the injuries to the fetus were fatal regardless and they both may have died.

2.

Advanced breast cancer. Begin chemo and surgery in month 4, definitely terminating the pregnancy or wait until the baby is viable. Drs. said waiting would result in certain death. Waited until month 6, died 8 months later. Baby is fine. But it was her choice.

[Mela99]

I live in Austin. I had friends, sisters, and my parents there in the courthouse during Wendy's filibuster. (Is that when he's claiming the hail Santana's happened?) None of them heard anything of the sort.

Washington is teaching him to lie through his teeth. He couldn't have been the ONLY ONE TO HEAR IT!!

Get some help, Joshie Boy. Hearing voices that scream Hail Satan is a problem with YOU, not everybody else.

[JellyHope]

Washington is teaching him to lie through his teeth. He couldn't have been the ONLY ONE TO HEAR IT!!

Get some help, Joshie Boy. Hearing voices that scream Hail Satan is a problem with YOU, not everybody else.

Whoops, just saw my auto correct changed to 'Hail Santana.' While Carlos Santana and Santana from Glee are great, I'm certainly not worshipping either.

[JenniferJuniper]

It's just hard for me to say that I'm pro choice when I've been raised in a place where I've been eaten alive if I'd say that, you know? I attend a Christian college, and yeah, I'd be burned at the stake of I say that. You should see the controversy I caused by saying I supported gay marriage... my roommate and I got completely attacked. I do believe in legal, safe, and rare. And so, yeah. It's just hard to accept my viewpoints when it goes SO against the grain of how I was raised and the culture I live in (especially when I know that if anyone in real life saw it, yeah, I would be 100% eaten alive, and I've seen it happen for other things).

Not to pile on you, but I'd like to address the "rare" word as it's come up a few times.

Let's say I'm an 18 year old freshman at a local community college. I don't have too great a family situation. Dad's a drunk and Mom's an enabler with some mental health issues and I have a bunch of younger siblings at home. I'm trying to get out and share a place with a couple of roommates but the hours at my job at the mall are pretty inconsistent. I am trying to get promoted to shift manager and that might get me close to full-time hours, even if the pay isn't that much better. School is good, but tough. I've never been that great a student.

I dated a guy for 6 months before I found out he was cheating on me. I dumped him last month. Last night I finally took the pregnancy test I've been in denial about. We used condoms. Except that one time. I'm probably about two months along, maybe a little more.

I don't want to be pregnant. I don't want a baby, certainly not now. I'm not sure I'll ever want children. I did enough child-rearing for my parents and to be honest, I'm just not crazy about kids. I'm terrified at the thought of going through a pregnancy and childbirth and I'm even more terrified that if I gave birth, I'd have trouble giving the baby up for adoption. Hormones and all. I really believe an abortion is the best option for me now.

This is anything but a rare situation. I think it's safe to say it's a very common one. So when you say abortion should be "rare", do you mean that women in common situations like this should not be allowed a choice?

[JellyHope]

Not to pile on you, but I'd like to address the "rare" word as it's come up a few times.

Let's say I'm an 18 year old freshman at a local community college. I don't have too great a family situation. Dad's a drunk and Mom's an enabler with some mental health issues and I have a bunch of younger siblings at home. I'm trying to get out and share a place with a couple of roommates but the hours at my job at the mall are pretty inconsistent. I am trying to get promoted to shift manager and that might get me close to full-time hours, even if the pay isn't that much better. School is good, but tough. I've never been that great a student.

I dated a guy for 6 months before I found out he was cheating on me. I dumped him last month. Last night I finally took the pregnancy test I've been in denial about. We used condoms. Except that one time. I'm probably about two months along, maybe a little more.

I don't want to be pregnant. I don't want a baby, certainly not now. I'm not sure I'll ever want children. I did enough child-rearing for my parents and to be honest, I'm just not crazy about kids. I'm terrified at the thought of going through a pregnancy and childbirth and I'm even more terrified that if I gave birth, I'd have trouble giving the baby up for adoption. Hormones and all. I really believe an abortion is the best option for me now.

This is anything but a rare situation. I think it's safe to say it's a very common one. So when you say abortion should be "rare", do you mean that women in common situations like this should not be allowed a choice?

I personally believe women in these common situations (even without deadbeat parents, lots of siblings, struggling with money) are completely warranted to make whatever choice is best for them. When I say 'rare' I mean trying to limit the need for abortion with realistic sex education and easy access to birth control for all.

[JenniferJuniper]

I personally believe women in these common situations (even without deadbeat parents, lots of siblings, struggling with money) are completely warranted to make whatever choice is best for them. When I say 'rare' I mean trying to limit the need for abortion with realistic sex education and easy access to birth control for all.

I think all of us here (except the fundies amongst us) would agree with good sex education and access to birth control. But that's only going to go so far in the real world. Unwanted pregnancies are still going to happen because people forget, they screw up, they take chances, birth control fails for some reason, etc. The usual human stuff that you can never eliminate.

When people say "abortion should be rare", I don't think most mean it in quite the same context as you.

[Mama Mia]

Not to pile on you, but I'd like to address the "rare" word as it's come up a few times.

Let's say I'm an 18 year old freshman at a local community college. I don't have too great a family situation. Dad's a drunk and Mom's an enabler with some mental health issues and I have a bunch of younger siblings :o at home. I'm trying to get out and share a place with a couple of roommates but the hours at my job at the mall are pretty inconsistent. I am trying to get promoted to shift manager and that might get me close to full-time hours, even if the pay isn't that much better. School is good, but tough. I've never been that great a student.

I dated a guy for 6 months before I found out he was cheating on me. I dumped him last month. Last night I finally took the pregnancy test I've been in denial about. We used condoms. Except that one time. I'm probably about two months along, maybe a little more.

I don't want to be pregnant. I don't want a baby, certainly not now. I'm not sure I'll ever want children. I did enough child-rearing for my parents and to be honest, I'm just not crazy about kids. I'm terrified at the thought of going through a pregnancy and childbirth and I'm even more terrified that if I gave birth, I'd have trouble giving the baby up for adoption. Hormones and all. I really believe an abortion is the best option for me now.

This is anything but a rare situation. I think it's safe to say it's a very common one. So when you say abortion should be "rare", do you mean that women in common situations like this should not be allowed a choice?

Oh, oh can I answer even though I'm not fullmetal jacket ?

I think the "rare" part in this situation should come from addressing and providing resources for the issues she's facing. If these resources were available then I think the situation would still be fairly common, but the solution being abortion would be reduced.

1). Issue: She's living at home with an unsupportive, difficult family situation. Resolution: Easily available, safe subsidized affordable housing where she can live independently with her child. Ideally with subsidized quality childcare provided on-site. If child care is not available on- site she still has access to free, quality childcare of the type she chooses ..I.e., in- home provider, family day care home or child care center.

2). Issue: Work and school. Resolution: a combination of school financial aid and benefits that allow her to focus on her education so that she will be able to obtain a good career. Alternately, if college have turns out not to be her thing, free vocational training with the same benefits so she can obtain a good career. If she decides she would rather just skip school or training altogether because she enjoys her job at the mall, then enough supports to make this feasible. Medical and food assistance.

3). Issue: Stressed out by taking care of children, not sure if she wants kids, wants time to play, not sure what dad's role should be, doesn't want to have to juggle school with sleep deprivation of caring for a newborn, no family support, etc. Resolution: a counselor or social worker helps her to walk through and provide a sounding board. Respite care provided as part of child care services. Co-parenting courses/ counseling if desired. Benefits while mom is home with an infant.

[formergothardite]

When I use rare I mean that birth control should be free/cheap/easily available. So many of "pro-life" people are totally against any government help for women who don't want to be pregnant or for women who get pregnant but feel like they can't afford to care for a child. I think that if we had measures in place to support women who don't want to be pregnant to prevent pregnancy in the first place and support women who want to continue a pregnancy but needs assistance abortion would be much rarer.

I'm not sure if that is what fullmetal meant or not, but when I use the term rare that is what I am meaning.

[JenniferJuniper]

Oh, oh can I answer even though I'm not fullmetal jacket ?

I think the "rare" part in this situation should come from addressing and providing resources for the issues she's facing. If these resources were available then I think the situation would still be fairly common, but the solution being abortion would be reduced.

1). Issue: She's living at home with an unsupportive, difficult family situation. Resolution: Easily available, safe subsidized affordable housing where she can live independently with her child. Ideally with subsidized quality childcare provided on-site. If child care is not available on- site she still has access to free, quality childcare of the type she chooses ..I.e., in- home provider, family day care home or child care center.

2). Issue: Work and school. Resolution: a combination of school financial aid and benefits that allow her to focus on her education so that she will be able to obtain a good career. Alternately, if college have turns out not to be her thing, free vocational training with the same benefits so she can obtain a good career. If she decides she would rather just skip school or training altogether because she enjoys her job at the mall, then enough supports to make this feasible. Medical and food assistance.

3). Issue: Stressed out by taking care of children, not sure if she wants kids, wants time to play, not sure what dad's role should be, doesn't want to have to juggle school with sleep deprivation of caring for a newborn, no family support, etc. Resolution: a counselor or social worker helps her to walk through and provide a sounding board. Respite care provided as part of child care services. Co-parenting courses/ counseling if desired. Benefits while mom is home with an infant.

Issue 1,2, 3 to eleventy billion....She doesn't want to have a kid.

[Mela99]

Oh, oh can I answer even though I'm not fullmetal jacket ?

I think the "rare" part in this situation should come from addressing and providing resources for the issues she's facing. If these resources were available then I think the situation would still be fairly common, but the solution being abortion would be reduced.

1). Issue: She's living at home with an unsupportive, difficult family situation. Resolution: Easily available, safe subsidized affordable housing where she can live independently with her child. Ideally with subsidized quality childcare provided on-site. If child care is not available on- site she still has access to free, quality childcare of the type she chooses ..I.e., in- home provider, family day care home or child care center.

2). Issue: Work and school. Resolution: a combination of school financial aid and benefits that allow her to focus on her education so that she will be able to obtain a good career. Alternately, if college have turns out not to be her thing, free vocational training with the same benefits so she can obtain a good career. If she decides she would rather just skip school or training altogether because she enjoys her job at the mall, then enough supports to make this feasible. Medical and food assistance.

3). Issue: Stressed out by taking care of children, not sure if she wants kids, wants time to play, not sure what dad's role should be, doesn't want to have to juggle school with sleep deprivation of caring for a newborn, no family support, etc. Resolution: a counselor or social worker helps her to walk through and provide a sounding board. Respite care provided as part of child care services. Co-parenting courses/ counseling if desired. Benefits while mom is home with an infant.

I hate to tell you, but that kind of subsidized care is a fantasy in some places. You don't get it. There is paperwork for miles and there can be months of waiting.

It's nice in theory, but like Communism, doesn't really work.

[RosyDaisy]

Things will never change if we don't stand up and speak up loudly and proudly...not just for ourselves but for the future generations of women. Do we really want to condemn them to the anti-choice tidal waves we are seeing now?

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, no kidding. Obviously those kind of resources aren't available everywhere. The issue isn't whether the supports are there now. It's what would make abortion more "rare" . And in my area right now it's often years of a wait, not months. And most of it isn't available at all.

And I'm well aware of the paperwork, since that's what I did for my career....help people wade through it and/ or generate it. There are currently many restrictions on any sort of social support, which is why I think a universal system for things like health care is a much more practical and logical choice.

[JellyHope]

I think all of us here (except the fundies amongst us) would agree with good sex education and access to birth control. But that's only going to go so far in the real world. Unwanted pregnancies are still going to happen because people forget, they screw up, they take chances, birth control fails for some reason, etc. The usual human stuff that you can never eliminate.

When people say "abortion should be rare", I don't think most mean it in quite the same context as you.

Yea, I guess you're right. And yes, unwanted pregnancies have always happeneded (even in the pioneer days, you weird funnies who wish to go back to that time) & WILL always happen.

I have a very conservative/catholic friend who really truly thinks that we could prevent abortion if America would just overturn Roe vs. Wade. You know, bc abortion never happened before the 70's!

[JellyHope]

Geez. Fundies. Not funnies.