Abigail Miscarried

[lilwriter85]

How sad.

The funeral for miscarried babies is a little creepy. I remember watching the Duggar Jubilee episode, and thinking, "This is the most real we've seen them, but this does not need to be televised".

I felt the same way about the Duggar Jubillee episode. If families want to have funerals for miscarried babies that is ok, but I agree having it televised is a bit much. Years ago, my brother had a co-worker who had a funeral for miscarried baby, but it was a family only event.

[Mela99]

I'd feel sad for any woman going through this.

I still don't understand how they found a priest to perform a funeral before. That's Catholic doctrine, you can't have a funeral for anybody who hasn't been born.

[anjulibai]

I'd feel sad for any woman going through this.

I still don't understand how they found a priest to perform a funeral before. That's Catholic doctrine, you can't have a funeral for anybody who hasn't been born.

It's also Catholic doctrine that you can't remarry after a divorce and without an annulment, but somehow my great-uncle and his 5th wife found a priest to perform a wedding mass for them.

Priests have their own opinions. Some are more liberal, some are more out there. A friend of my husband's stopped going to her parish because the priest believed the earth is only 6,000 years old, and it's been established Catholic dogma to the contrary for some time now.

I'm guessing Abigail found a priest heavily involved in anti-choice activism, who thinks because life begins at conception that a fetus deserves a proper burial.

[Mudball]

I feel for her, that is such a hard thing to go through.

Wasn't there a fundie or maybe another Catholic with a history of funerals for fetuses? If I recall, she was really mentally not well. I believer I read about her here. Francine... Francie... something like that?

[lilwriter85]

I feel for her, that is such a hard thing to go through.

Wasn't there a fundie or maybe another Catholic with a history of funerals for fetuses? If I recall, she was really mentally not well. I believer I read about her here. Francine... Francie... something like that?

I think that blogger was called Frankie and she is Catholic. I never looked at her blog before she went private or took it down. I know others have discussed her here.

[Boltingmadonna]

Thanks for the news about Abigail. I haven't been able to read her blog because Chrome tells me it probably contains malware. I hope no one's computer has been infected.

[Beammeup]

I feel incredibly sad for her.

My brother an his wife had this happen to them at 17 weeks. They had a grave side service. It was very healing for everyone. Nothing like the overblown things we see on these blogs. Everyone talked about something they would miss doing with the baby simple things like egg hunts, ice cream, going to the lake, things like that. So I don't have a problem having a gathering but a production like the Duggars? Hell no.

[dilannsmom]

According to today's post, Abigail was at the church meeting with the priest to plan the funeral...while her daughter played in the baptismal fount. She went to CVS, but refused to purchase the Kotex pads that she will need. She might feel guilty about the new tv, she isn't sure. She won't take allergy meds but might have an alcoholic drink at AppleBee's this evening.

Everybody deals with miscarriage differently; it is hard and ugly. But the crazy seems to have manifested itself!

[ILoveJellybeans]

I can understand that it would be incredibly upsetting to have to buy pads because you are miscarrying, but its something that needs to be done, or it will be incredibly messy. Hopefully her husband goes to buy her some to put in the bathroom, so theres some in when she runs out of the ones she bought before pregnancy.

[dianapavelovna]

Thanks for the news about Abigail. I haven't been able to read her blog because Chrome tells me it probably contains malware. I hope no one's computer has been infected.

Strangely, I got the same message in Chrome when I tried to visit the homepage, but when I used the direct link to the entry upthread, I got no such warning...

[GeoBQn]

She's having issues with funeral arrangements.

abigails-alcove.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-magical-line-at-20-weeks.html

[Arete]

I'd feel sad for any woman going through this.

I still don't understand how they found a priest to perform a funeral before. That's Catholic doctrine, you can't have a funeral for anybody who hasn't been born.

OK, I don't understand this either. People here are saying that even though it is against Catholic doctrine, you can find a sympathetic priest who will do a funeral for a miscarriage. That kind of behavior would get you an automatic defrocking in the Eastern Orthodox Church, no get out of jail card. I have dealt with EOs who have committed suicide and others who have been cremated, and the priests will simply NOT do a funeral liturgy. They are sympathetic. They will come and do a prayer service at a funeral home. They will strongly suggest that the parish get its collective ass to the funeral home for a prayer service, but they would never risk being demoted to layman for openly flouting doctrine by doing a LITURGY in the church when the doctrine says "NO".

Btw, they will also come to your home or the hospital in the event of a miscarriage and have a prayer service, but you aren't getting a funeral liturgy no matter how many priests or bishops you call. Since when has the Catholic Church had a problem bringing down the hammer on what is and is not allowed?

[Stephanie66]

I really do feel sadly for her, as snarky as I have been. A loss is a loss.

I honestly do not know if I would have a funeral for a less-than-viable fetus. But I don't find it even eye-rolling that she wants to and needs to to complete her grief process. However, funerals are expensive (she wrote about "not wanting to bury it by the swing set") and if she can't afford food, then on a strictly pragmatic level, it might be an unnecessary expense. Many funeral homes will do the services for children for free, but I think it is pushing it to ask any funeral home to provide gratis services for miscarriage less than 20 weeks. Also, is she planning on a headstone, etc?

I do feel horrible for her. I can't even imagine going in to see your baby on ultrasound and learn the gender, etc, and then no heartbeat. How sad.

[Coconut Flan]

That is an issue I've had with the Catholic Church. There is a rule for almost everything, but then the parishes make up their own sometimes. Why have an extensive rule book if you aren't going to follow it?

The Church has a liturgy in place for this occasion called "Order for Blessing of Parents after Miscarriage." There is information on adapting the funeral liturgy for a stillbirth or infant that dies before baptism. There is nothing accounting for having a funeral of any form much less a funeral mass for something earlier than an actual stillbirth.

The pregnancy wasn't advanced enough for a true gender ultrasound. It is heartbreaking but having a funeral or not is probably tearing her apart more than if she could accept that in the world's view it's not warranted. Good point about the expense entailed also. Our extended family lost a 13 week pregnancy last year and it was hard. I think it would have only made it harder to fight for something like a regular funeral.

[Arete]

Agreed, this end run around the rules for Abigail is pastorally irresponsible and just...cruel. She has suffered a loss, her priest's responsibility is to model love and mercy, not exacerbate her pain and pre existing instability.

[NurseNell]

OK, I don't understand this either. People here are saying that even though it is against Catholic doctrine, you can find a sympathetic priest who will do a funeral for a miscarriage. That kind of behavior would get you an automatic defrocking in the Eastern Orthodox Church, no get out of jail card. I have dealt with EOs who have committed suicide and others who have been cremated, and the priests will simply NOT do a funeral liturgy. They are sympathetic. They will come and do a prayer service at a funeral home. They will strongly suggest that the parish get its collective ass to the funeral home for a prayer service, but they would never risk being demoted to layman for openly flouting doctrine by doing a LITURGY in the church when the doctrine says "NO".

Btw, they will also come to your home or the hospital in the event of a miscarriage and have a prayer service, but you aren't getting a funeral liturgy no matter how many priests or bishops you call. Since when has the Catholic Church had a problem bringing down the hammer on what is and is not allowed?

I know she uses the term funeral but I really think it's a prayer service, not an actual funeral Mass.

[VodouDoll]

OK, I don't understand this either. People here are saying that even though it is against Catholic doctrine, you can find a sympathetic priest who will do a funeral for a miscarriage. That kind of behavior would get you an automatic defrocking in the Eastern Orthodox Church, no get out of jail card. I have dealt with EOs who have committed suicide and others who have been cremated, and the priests will simply NOT do a funeral liturgy. They are sympathetic. They will come and do a prayer service at a funeral home. They will strongly suggest that the parish get its collective ass to the funeral home for a prayer service, but they would never risk being demoted to layman for openly flouting doctrine by doing a LITURGY in the church when the doctrine says "NO".

Is that true for RC priests too, though? My cousin died of suicide a few years ago and he had a full Catholic funeral mass. The priest understood that for my cousin, as it is for many who die of suicide, his depression was, sadly, a terminal illness. On a happier note, my brother and SIL had a joint Catholic/Episcopalian wedding with a priest from each denomination, even though the official rule is that weddings performed by Catholic priests are supposed to be Catholic only: no other clergy is supposed to co-celebrate. The priest at the parish when I was a kid let girls be altar servers even though that was against the official rules at the time. He also regularly preached homilies about how vital it was for the Church to ordain women as well as men, and how the cardinals and popes who prevent that from happening will have to answer for it to God. Once someone complained to the Cardinal and the Cardinal told the complainer, "Your priest can say what he wants, and if you don't like his homilies, go to another parish. It's an opinion a lot of people have."

These situations, along with lots of others I've seen, tells me that there is often room for Catholic priests to exercise their discretion, and that probably depends a lot on the diocese's bishop and how much freedom he gives the priests he supervises. Or how much the bishop pays attention to what they're doing/gives a crap about everyone hewing exactly to the party line at all times. Some bishops are more liberal than others, or bigger micromanagers.

[Arete]

Vodou Doll,

Openly defying current doctrine is pretty much impossible for Orthodox priests. They have a lot of discretionary power in certain matters, but virtually none in doctrinal. Doing it would cost them their ordination, no exceptions.

NurseNell,

That would make a lot more sense to me.

[VodouDoll]

I just found this article. Apparently Roman Catholic priests can perform funeral masses for people who die of suicide.

"As Catholics we recognize that mental illness is something that needs to be taken into consideration in pastoral practice," Fragomeni said. "We still acknowledge that killing is against God’s command. In this kind of case, the catechism says there are conditions we just don’t condemn people to hell or refuse them God’s mercy anymore."

In fact, according to the Catholic catechism: "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide."

That said, Abigail's funeral mass for a 14-week fetus is very odd. I think her priest has probably gone a bit rogue.

[Arete]

I just found this article. Apparently Roman Catholic priests can perform funeral masses for people who die of suicide.

That said, Abigail's funeral mass for a 14-week fetus is very odd. I think her priest has probably gone a bit rogue.

Oh, I never doubted that current Catholic doctrine allows for a funeral Mass for those who have committed suicide. I was just using my experience of suicide within the EO framework to illustrate that you can provide pastoral care, recognize that suicide is a mental health issue, and still not be able to flout the doctrinal rules of who is and is not able to have a funeral Liturgy in an EO church.

I have serious doubts that Catholic doctrine allows for a funeral Mass for a 14 week old fetus, and have virtually no doubt that Abigail expects it anyway. She is grieving and I'm willing to cut her a lot of slack, but the priest not so much.

[Jana814]

Is it common for religious people to want a full service for a misscarriage? I get that she is grieving buts it seems odd to me.

[mrs]

Is that true for RC priests too, though? My cousin died of suicide a few years ago and he had a full Catholic funeral mass. The priest understood that for my cousin, as it is for many who die of suicide, his depression was, sadly, a terminal illness. On a happier note, my brother and SIL had a joint Catholic/Episcopalian wedding with a priest from each denomination, even though the official rule is that weddings performed by Catholic priests are supposed to be Catholic only: no other clergy is supposed to co-celebrate. The priest at the parish when I was a kid let girls be altar servers even though that was against the official rules at the time. He also regularly preached homilies about how vital it was for the Church to ordain women as well as men, and how the cardinals and popes who prevent that from happening will have to answer for it to God. Once someone complained to the Cardinal and the Cardinal told the complainer, "Your priest can say what he wants, and if you don't like his homilies, go to another parish. It's an opinion a lot of people have."

These situations, along with lots of others I've seen, tells me that there is often room for Catholic priests to exercise their discretion, and that probably depends a lot on the diocese's bishop and how much freedom he gives the priests he supervises. Or how much the bishop pays attention to what they're doing/gives a crap about everyone hewing exactly to the party line at all times. Some bishops are more liberal than others, or bigger micromanagers.

I am sorry to hear about your cousin. I have a family member who attempted suicide. I was worried that she would be sent to hell. Eventually I learned that is no longer true.

Canon law no longer specifically mentions suicide as an impediment to funeral rites or religious sepulture.

Source: ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur106.htm

[Coconut Flan]

In the post about the need for a fetal death certificate for a funeral she specifically said "Catholic funeral mass" was what she wanted. In the more recent post she's backing off to say she's OK this time with a more low key funeral.

[countressrascal]

I feel bad for her regarding her miscarriage, still she has lost two boys and from what I can read both were about the same time also that their hearts stopped. She needs to go she a specialist and understand if there is a genetic issue. Plus she does need some professional mental health services before she further emotional damages her living children.

[Eternalbluepearl]

I've been reading her blog to get to "know" her more and it's really strange. She acts like she's constantly suffering by not being pregnant but she has 6 kids. She also then whines about wanting to be away from them. So why have more? She goes around in circles. And I'm sorry but her job is to pray for the world? Then she writes posts about being bad at prayer and hoping for prayer time to end? What the ever-loving hell? How does her husband not turn and run in the other direction? What a narcissist.