Sometimes I forget what the south is like

[Arete]

Yes, I would tend to agree, that at least in my part of the North, friendliness is doled out in small doses. It is up to the newcomer to get out there and socialize. You're statement is not untrue in my neck of the woods. Being "overly friendly" is often looked at suspiciously here. That is considered a separate thing from offering assistance to someone in physical distress. You fall, you get hurt, your disoriented by heat, you've had an accident, people will come running from all different directions to offer assistance to a stranger here in those circumstances. Being friendly to strangers just to be social?-not so much.

I am a Christian, but I find religiosity in the South to be extremely off putting. I am referring mostly to approaching people to see if they want to go to church, find out what church they are from, throwing out their salvation status in conversations, etc. That is simple not done here.

[feministxtian]

I grew up in the Hampton Roads area of VA (lived there from 1973 until I moved to Arizona last year). Yes, there are people who are racist, but I had friends of all shades and not a second look was given when we were together. My youngest son is married to a young lady "of color" and nobody gives them a second look. Yes there can be the over the top religiousness, there can be some friction between the haves and have nots, but for the most part, it was a great place to live. The military influence throughout the area probably helps to make it less "typically southern".

[AuntCloud]

I honestly wasn't about to strike a "which place is nicer" competition. My MIL is shocked every time she's visiting us in Canada and doesn't get friendly "hello" and "hi, Ma'am" from random people. Different places have different paces and different etiquettes, that's a given.

I was just astounded at the general mistrust of the government and the weapons, weapons everywhere. Do people really perceive they live in a war zone?

[bananacat]

I was born and raised in the North East so I'm surely biased, but I actually vastly prefer it that I don't have a bunch of random people saying hello to me. That kind of thing doesn't make me feel welcome or at home; it just makes me feel socially obligated to pay attention to all these different people that will never even think of me again the second after I walk away. I wouldn't say that it's rude, just that I don't find those hellos meaningful and because of that they just sort of get in the way. It's just a difference of cultural expectations and one way isn't better than the other, but both sides have their reasons for their preferences.

[fundiefun]

I'll never forget the drive in church I passed down in Florida on my way down to Orlando and seeing Jesus and pro life billboards left and right. The race issue as a person of color who is not heterosexual is a big reason why I feel uneasy going most places down south. I don't care to see confederate flags left and right I get it's part of some people's heritage, but I don't understand the love of the confederate flag in 2013 and the whole the South will rise again mentality that is strong down south. It's almost as if some parts of the South are stuck in the past with the whole civil war thing that you don't see up in the North.

[pboreos]

I was born and raised in the North East so I'm surely biased, but I actually vastly prefer it that I don't have a bunch of random people saying hello to me. That kind of thing doesn't make me feel welcome or at home; it just makes me feel socially obligated to pay attention to all these different people that will never even think of me again the second after I walk away. I wouldn't say that it's rude, just that I don't find those hellos meaningful and because of that they just sort of get in the way. It's just a difference of cultural expectations and one way isn't better than the other, but both sides have their reasons for their preferences.

I was also born and raised in the NE, and now have lived in the South for over a decade. Before moving I was very familiar with the legendary "Southern Hospitality" reputation, but my experience with it was pretty different than what I expected. I've found that people were far more polite to me up in the "rude North" (seriously every time we go back to visit relatives people here will ask if we encountered lots of rude people while we were there), then they are down here. People let doors slam, etc.

After giving it some though, I've come to the conclusion that manners are regional and the purpose of manners is different in the different areas. In the South, it seems manners are more a point of pride, and they are about yourself. You do things for the impression it will give other people of you- you teach your kids to say sir or ma'am otherwise people will think you didn't raise them right. You have to be sure to stop and speak to a neighbor in the grocery store, or the person next to you in the grocery line, or you would be rude, and you can't have that. It doesn't matter if that conversation with your neighbor means that you are both blocking the grocery aisle with your carts and no one can get through- you are being polite by talking to your neighbor. This happens all the time, people are oblivious, and it's like it's rude of the people who want to get down the aisle to interrupt the conversation.

In the North, manners are more about other people and your relations to them in the world. It seems like it's about making people feel comfortable, not so much in a social way, but more in a not intruding in their life way. You try to be as unobtrusive as possible, yet, we're still here if you need help way. So, you smile or nod if you pass someone, but if you happen to be in a line together, if it's short, there usually isn't a conversation. If you are in a grocery store aisle, you stay as far to one side as possible so that other people are able to pass easily. If there is someone coming behind you- you hold the door for them.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't people in the South who don't do this, but generally, this is the way I see people behave overall when I'm in either place. It's just a different mindset, I guess.

[Sumeri]

I honestly wasn't about to strike a "which place is nicer" competition. My MIL is shocked every time she's visiting us in Canada and doesn't get friendly "hello" and "hi, Ma'am" from random people. Different places have different paces and different etiquettes, that's a given.

I was just astounded at the general mistrust of the government and the weapons, weapons everywhere. Do people really perceive they live in a war zone?

I don't want to generalize, but I think that's a rural thing, more than a regional one. I live pretty far north and the weaponry is ridiculously terrifying. Conservative second amendment nutbags come from all places on the map in America. :(

I also want to testify that racism is alive and well in the upper Midwest, but folks are better at hiding it. "North Dakota Nice" is a real thing, a very passive aggressive, back stabby way of going about your business.

A few pages back, someone mentioned a coworker casually throwing the N word into casual conversation, which reminded me of a story my sister used to tell when she moved to Texas - in Austin, where folks should know better! She was at a very fancy corporate function, in a lovely restaurant, when one of her superiors, a big "good old boy" stood up like he was making a toast and boomed, "Listen, listen, y'all! I got a joke." When everyone at the table settled down he very loudly started "These two faggots walked into a bar..."

[salex]

What.

Okay, if you move to a major NC city, then I'll understand. If you're only saying that because you went to the Outer Banks once... you're the kind of transplant who is so clueless it's not even funny. We have a lot of transplants around here who come to the Outer Banks, think "oh, what a nice place to live!" and then tear out of their 'dream home' like a bat out of hell once they realize how much it sucks to live here year-round. Seriously, stay the hell out of eastern NC unless you're on vacation to the beach. Or you move to Wilmington, which is awesome (I plan to stay there after college).

If it's in the mountains... you better be moving to Asheville.

I like Wilmington, at least during the seasons I've visited my friends there however... I'm from Kansas, under the reign of Sam Brownback and I personally was SHOCKED at how conservative NC came across while I was there the first time in 2003. I kept seeing signs saying "Under God or Get Out" on the cash registers in the stores and I didn't even know wtf they were talking about at first (Pledge of Allegiance) and I also saw several signs saying they no longer carried French wines or cheeses (remember freedom fries?) I had only heard rumors of that in KS, and none of the places I went for wine or cheese. Meanwhile, there were new age shops down the street. It still seemed more loudly conservative than KS did back then.

[already hungover]

In tenth grade a kid in my algebra class decided to out me as an atheist. And then proceeded to kindly inform the teacher that I was going to bring a gun to school. Fortunately with my perfect record and general harmlessness, my sane teacher did not haul me to the office and try to get me expelled.

This was in 2007.

When I was in 9th grade (2002-03) some kids found out I was an atheist and a pacifist and they threw a glass bottle at me while I was walking home from school. WTF. Not in the South but in a super red state.

[kamcho_papio]

After giving it some though, I've come to the conclusion that manners are regional and the purpose of manners is different in the different areas. In the South, it seems manners are more a point of pride, and they are about yourself. You do things for the impression it will give other people of you-[snip]

In the North, manners are more about other people and your relations to them in the world. It seems like it's about making people feel comfortable, not so much in a social way, but more in a not intruding in their life way. You try to be as unobtrusive as possible, yet, we're still here if you need help way. [snip]

I'm not trying to say that there aren't people in the South who don't do this, but generally, this is the way I see people behave overall when I'm in either place. It's just a different mindset, I guess.

I was born and raised in the mid-Atlantic and have lived in various versions of the South for a decade as well, and this is the best description of differences I've seen. Of course there are all sorts of personalities who adhere to this in different ways all over (and the Midwest is its own story altogether), but regardless of how people actually act, your description is incredibly accurate of how people perceive the purpose of manners. I've lost count of the rude Southern women I've met who've proudly told me how much they love Emily Post--for many of them, etiquette is a cudgel amongst both strangers and familiars. I do think there is an overall culture of competition and peer-pruning, of knowing one's place and minding other people's business. And of course, the social cold shoulder doesn't know geographical boundaries.

But yes, it's a strange, all-encompassing mindset that can be difficult to step into.

[RosyDaisy]

To anybody interested in living in a southern town that's not very fundie, I suggest Huntsville or Madison, Alabama. That's where my SO's family is from. It's a tiny pocket of liberalism mainly due to NASA and a lot of non-southern transplants moving there over the last few years. When my SO takes me there, we always have lunch at Big Spring park. There's also an arts festival called Panoply and Big Spring Jam (which has brought in some top music acts). But, of course being in the South, you will also find fundies, just not as many as in other parts of Alabama.

ETA: It's not only hot as hell down here during the summer, it's humid too. 100 degrees in the desert areas of the SW is nothing compared to 90's and high humidity.

[Kailash]

I have found this thread facinating to read. I live in Kansas and just returned from a trip to Mississippi. While we were there the ruling in the Zimmerman case was decided. My in-laws (who live there) thought that if it had been a man of color who killed a white kid we would never had heard about it. My husband and I found that extremely hard to believe.

What bothers me the most is that some people everywhere are racist and don't even realize it. Even when it's pointed out they deny it. How can we overcome racism if people deny it exists?

[Kailash]

Found this interesting, though it's from May of this year:

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/05/20/the ... ?hpt=hp_t3

[RosyDaisy]

Judging from the replies on the link above, a lot of people have no clue what "freedom of speech" really means. It doesn't mean you can say whatever the hell you want and everybody else has shut up. Rebuttal is also "freedom of speech" not a violation of "freedom of speech".

[super skeptic]

Gosh, sometimes I forget what the north was like...

I grew up in the segregated South. Then I moved to New England. Suburbs filled with white folks as far as the eye can see...my high school had ZERO people of color, other than the 6 boys in one of those feel-good programs that brought "poor l'il ethnic boys" to the glorious suburbs to experience the "good" life, devoid of anyone that looked like them, talked like them, enjoyed the same music, etc. If those kids hadn't been bright, determined students, they would've all run screaming out of there on the first day. As it is, most of them felt a lot like those kids walking into Little Rock High School. While there wasn't much overt negativity, they had almost no friends other than themselves. Kids were nice to them, but you never saw them visiting anyone's home or being invited to church by those nice liberal New Englanders. We had no Indian, Chinese, Asian, African-American, South American, or anything other than white as far as the eye could see. Even our exchange students came from nice, safe European countries.

In my large New England state university, the African-American students tended to bond together for protection, as much as for a sense of familiarity. I dated someone of Caribbean nationality, and had my dorm door set on fire by the nice racists next door. In New England, it was easy to be liberal from a distance. White people lived in the pretty suburbs and small towns, and black people lived in the ugly parts of the cities. As long as they didn't have to actually see or be in the presence of a non-white person, the whites could feel quite superior about their condescending attitudes towards those "poor black folks." Face to face, different story completely. As one of my African-American friends said to me some years later, "At least in the South I knew exactly who was my friend and whom I should avoid. In New England, they'll all smile at your face and stab you in the back. I never know whom to trust." Don't forget, while New Englanders vilified the South for segregation woes in the 60's, Boston was one of the most horrific places to be when the courts ordered an end to the de facto segregation of schools. I lived there when Bostonians were throwing rocks at school busses full of innocent children. Same thing in Detroit, BTW.

As for religion, well, unlike the South, no one asked us what church we attended when we first moved there. On the other hand, that's because their prejudice is soooo much more subtle. You see, in small town New England, Episcopalians rule the roost. All those old New England families (who, BTW, think their sh*t don't stink 'cause it came over in the Mayflower) don't openly diss you, they simply ignore you. You don't exist if you're not one of "them." You don't get invited to their parties, you can't join their country clubs, and you certainly don't get to date any of their children. Just not done, old boy, doncha know?

Along the entire West Coast, states are divided between their large, more liberal cities, and the rural conservative small towns that make up the "rest" of the state. Bitter battles are fought every year in the legislatures between these two groups. There's a reason why a lot of crazy Aryan Supremacists and fundies live in rural areas in the West. Portland and Seattle are some of the whitest cities you'll ever see, and they consistently rank high in the "liberal" category. Yet I had a Sikh friend who felt compelled to wear a t-shirt saying "I am NOT a Muslim" just after 9/11, because of threats to him on the street.

When I was living in Europe years ago, people over there professed their utter disbelief over our racism and segregation history. Now that many countries are experiencing an large influx of people who don't look like them or worship like them, we get "Paki" and "Monkey" slurs being thrown out at soccer matches, anti-headscarf laws in France, the shootings and bombing in Norway, and the rise of overt racism/religious zealotry throughout the European countries.

I can relate similar stories about the Midwest, Southwest, wherever you want to point to on the map. Again, it is easy to be liberal when there aren't many of "Them" around, whoever "they" may be - races, religions, education, whatever measuring stick you're using. So, the moral of my little diatribe is...bad, stupid, ignorant people live everywhere. Decent, kind, intelligent people live everywhere. Tarring any one part of the country with a nasty brush is a foolish waste of time.

Bless you. I wanted to say the same thing but you said it better. The "liberal" white folks can often be as racist as those Southern people they whine about.

[super skeptic]

Basically, I often feel like "liberal" places are only a haven for liberal WHITE people. All others still run into prejudice everywhere they go.

[Hane]

Bless you. I wanted to say the same thing but you said it better. The "liberal" white folks can often be as racist as those Southern people they whine about.

As I said a ways back on this thread,

Gee whiz, Kitten, would you mind telling us where the heck in New England you lived, and where you went to college? New England, from state to state, and within states, is far more diverse than many people realize.

I was born in New York City, and have lived in central Connecticut for the past 56 years, in what has morphed, over the years, from a blue-collar factory town to a strange combination of inner-city and suburban bedroom-town enclaves. We've become very diverse here: white (including many new immigrants from eastern Europe), black, Latino (mostly from Puerto Rico), southeast Asians, and now growing numbers of Middle Easterners, Indians, and Pakistanis. There are a mosque and Sikh and Hindu temples nearby. The town has changed a lot since I was a kid, to the point where I (of Italian-Catholic heritage) feel ill-at-ease when I go to Whitey McWhiteville areas. (Honest to God. As in, "Oh, good--there's an AA/Latino/Middle Eastern person." Diverse is what I consider normal.)

[BillyGsCheesyWeiner]

Being and old weiner, I live in both CT and a rural town in FL. My CT town is snow white, most of the people like to think of themselves as liberal. When the Weinettes were small, I sent them to a local Vacation Bible School. Part of the program was to create a food donation for the "poor" in other towns. The other mothers were sickening, wearing expensive maternity clothing, showing off their latest Volvos and so on. The kids were dressed to match. When standing in line to pick up my Weinettes, no greeting was made until you got a once over. For my FU food bank donation, I bought a southern brand of black eyed peas and a can of collard greens. At the end of VBS there was a photo in the paper of the food donations. My jaw dropped at how they placed the greens and peas in the center of the display. Our La Leche meetings were also crafted to discourage Military wives, because they could be poor or ignorant. I left La Leche League, to rejoin after Weinette 2, and it was all Military wives. Down to earth women. The North wears a blanket of hidden prejudice.

When we became snowbirds, we wanted to live away from rules. Our neighbor flies a rebel flag. What we didn't count on was the suspicion of everyone (think black helicopters and taking away their beloved guns). Vermont is referred to as the Peoples Republic of Vermont. Even going into Circle K, we get "where you from?". After several months we made no friends except for the rebel flag neighbors, who never invited us to parties at their house (though I was fine to babysit or give birthday gifts). Talking to other snowbirds, they all had the same experience. This year we plan to join the neighborhood group and try again. Even the few kids I've met have a certain way of telling stories or communicating. Think periods of silence, then a story is blurted out. You give an acknowledging nod, and relay a story back. Unlike my Yankee townsfolk, nothing is PC here. Arbys had a creche over the ketchup at Christmas. No one says happy holidays. People still put tons of lights up ala the Griswalds. On a more shocking side are the graffiti swastikas on the side of a bank owned home. They have been up for over a year. No one seems to care enough to report it. Perhaps it's a signal for outsiders not to live here. One man from MA we met in another neighborhood was moving because of all the hate group meetings. This was an upscale area, mixed with native Southerners and transplants.

The South is charming, and on the surface polite. It is also very direct in their attitudes, and their right to opinions. I cannot speak for all of the South, only my section of rural Florida.

[FaustianSlip]

I would also love to know where Kitten was living in New England; attitudes there definitely vary across states, and certainly growing up in small-town Maine, the Episcopalians were the minority (I was raised Episcopalian, and if it happened to come up in conversation, which wasn't often, the typical response was, "Episco-what? What's that?"). I think Catholics were probably the largest single denomination in our area, though the last time I went back, there were a ton of new, evangelical and fundamentalist churches, probably mostly Baptist or IFB, judging by their signage.

I don't think I could deal with the paranoia that seems evident in a lot of the south (the whole, "They're coming to take our guns and make us wear the Mark of the Beast" thing) or the religiosity, but you definitely get some of that up north. I'm sad to say that there's a certain amount of creeping neo-Confederatism making its way up north, which just confuses the shit out of me. I'll hear people talking about how put-upon the South is, and how people "don't really understand what the War was about," and I want to shake them and go, "For God's sake, you live in Massachusetts!" Granted, a number of these folks are fellow Civil War reenactors, but even so, it's really bizarre to me. I think a lot of it is people who aren't in the hobby out of a love of history so much as for an opportunity to act out their Tea Party and/or borderline racist attitudes in an environment where they think they'll be condoned (I generally just get up and leave when that kind of crap starts up, for the record, and refuse to talk modern politics, because we're supposed to be reenacting 1863 or whatever, and I kind of doubt anyone was raving about Obama back then).

[Arete]

I don't think there has been a single person from the North on this thread that hasn't acknowledged that racism is alive and well in North, simply expressed differently. It is the religiosity and what would be perceived in the North as fake manners that a lot of Northerners find off putting about the South. Just like Southerners find our perceived rudeness and indifference to certain social graces as off putting. Sure, there are good and bad human beings everywhere, but being in a state that doesn't fight the abortion battle every 4 years and actually collects taxes so people in trouble don't have to beg in a church has its charms.

[madpsych78]

Born and grew up in Naperville, IL, a Western suburb of Chicago. It's also one of the more conservative major cities in IL, at least fiscally, but it is also very White as well. In fact, Illinois is not as blue as many people may think. Chicago is very liberal, but most of the rest of the state tends to be less liberal. Governor Quinn (a Democrat) won the election a few years ago because he won Cook County, which is where Chicago is located. Cook County alone has 40% of all IL residents. Quinn also won one other county near St. Louis. His Republican opponent won EVERY OTHER COUNTY in IL but still lost the election.

Now, I have been living in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for the past year. There are definitely more churches around here, but there has also been more diversity here than in many parts of IL. Denton is pretty artsy and has two universities. Most of the political bumper stickers I have seen have been pro-Obama/Biden. Definitely not as conservative as I imagined it to be given that it is in the south. Not saying there aren't conservative parts of TX but I just have not experienced that so far.

[already hungover]

Basically, I often feel like "liberal" places are only a haven for liberal WHITE people. All others still run into prejudice everywhere they go.

Unfortunately, I think this is probably true. I grew up in a conservative northern state. I'm mixed race, but actually look pretty white by non-North Dakota standards. I didn't actually consider myself mixed until I moved away, though, and didn't feel like being mixed-race was a secret to hide at all costs.

In 11th grade, I was sitting in my biology class minding my own business when this girl came up to me and said, "I've been wondering. What kind are you?" I had no idea what she meant and responded, "Uh, what?" She just kept saying with more emphasis, "What KIND are you??" Finally she figured out that I didn't know what she was talking about and said kind of huffily, "I mean what race. What race are you." I was like, "I'm white, go away."

WTF.

[TXCATLADY]

Born and grew up in Naperville, IL, a Western suburb of Chicago. Now, I have been living in the Dallas/Fort Worth area for the past year. There are definitely more churches around here, but there has also been more diversity here than in many parts of IL. Denton is pretty artsy and has two universities. Most of the political bumper stickers I have seen have been pro-Obama/Biden. Definitely not as conservative as I imagined it to be given that it is in the south. Not saying there aren't conservative parts of TX but I just have not experienced that so far.

I grew up in the DFW area and went to college in Denton. I've now lived outside of Nashville for 15 years. I can tell you with 100% certainty that TX is not in the "south". I thought it was but I learned that being in the south is much more than geography. Texas is its own place. I enjoy being in the south now but it was a hell of a shock the first few years. God bless Texas! :wink-kitty:

[RosyDaisy]

Basically, I often feel like "liberal" places are only a haven for liberal WHITE people. All others still run into prejudice everywhere they go.

Sorry, but I disagree. There are liberal places that are multiracial and multicultural.

[theologygeek]

I was also born and raised in the NE, and now have lived in the South for over a decade. Before moving I was very familiar with the legendary "Southern Hospitality" reputation, but my experience with it was pretty different than what I expected. I've found that people were far more polite to me up in the "rude North" (seriously every time we go back to visit relatives people here will ask if we encountered lots of rude people while we were there), then they are down here. People let doors slam, etc.

After giving it some though, I've come to the conclusion that manners are regional and the purpose of manners is different in the different areas. In the South, it seems manners are more a point of pride, and they are about yourself. You do things for the impression it will give other people of you- you teach your kids to say sir or ma'am otherwise people will think you didn't raise them right. You have to be sure to stop and speak to a neighbor in the grocery store, or the person next to you in the grocery line, or you would be rude, and you can't have that. It doesn't matter if that conversation with your neighbor means that you are both blocking the grocery aisle with your carts and no one can get through- you are being polite by talking to your neighbor. This happens all the time, people are oblivious, and it's like it's rude of the people who want to get down the aisle to interrupt the conversation.

In the North, manners are more about other people and your relations to them in the world. It seems like it's about making people feel comfortable, not so much in a social way, but more in a not intruding in their life way. You try to be as unobtrusive as possible, yet, we're still here if you need help way. So, you smile or nod if you pass someone, but if you happen to be in a line together, if it's short, there usually isn't a conversation. If you are in a grocery store aisle, you stay as far to one side as possible so that other people are able to pass easily. If there is someone coming behind you- you hold the door for them.

I'm not trying to say that there aren't people in the South who don't do this, but generally, this is the way I see people behave overall when I'm in either place. It's just a different mindset, I guess.

A friend of mine lived in the South for three years. Don't get her started on manners because she will tell anyone who will listen all her stories about rudeness and being back stabbed. She claims the manners are fake and come from being ingrained since childhood, as opposed to the North where the manners are genuine and helping comes from the heart. I didn't live there so I can't say, but your post reminded me of her.