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Sometimes I forget what the south is like


Beeks

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They're not stating that we like to eat bagels. They're calling us racist (maybe not in so many words, but the feeling is there) and painting all southerners with a broad brush. I take offense to that.

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I'm not a southerner, so I don't have a dog in this fight. I do see what Nora is saying though. I see a lot of disdain of the southern way of life. The impression I'm getting is that people think the people worth knowing down there are like unicorns.

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Nora,

I can understand why this thread would make you feel uncomfortable. I hope that neither of my posts made you feel that I was bashing the south. Others have already stated that we are aware that many southern people are liberal and tolerant. Geographic areas do have a certain flavor.

As a northerner, I will admit freely that we are louder and more blunt than southern natives, regardless of our political philosophy. Where I live, there are a lot of rural southern folks, but also a population of midwesterners (Ohio, Western PA, Upstate NY. Illinois, Indiana) These folks often have an unfortunate combination of pushy, loud northern personalities and racist underpinnings.

Generalizations are just that. Individuals are each just that.

In the more urban areas, people are more accepting of varied cultures because they are exposed to it every day. In rural areas, north and south, there is a naivete about different kinds of people. Often this is expressed as mistrust. Given the events after the civil war, it makes sense for southern people to have difficulty trusting northern transplants.

But let us not deny these things simply because we think it is impolite. The fact is that I have enjoyed my time in the south. The fact is also that I do not fit here as a non-Christian yankee.

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I guess I just don't see the regional differences as so marked. The rural-urban distinction maybe, but I don't see urban settings as less racist, just better at... ignoring others. The homogeneity is confined to specific neighborhoods. Look at the racial divides between neighborhoods in any major city.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/ ... 812674967/

I think this is an interesting illustration of racial division in US cities.

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This is an interesting thread for me as a Canadian - my information on life in the U.S is based solely on books, tv, movies, magazines and some vacation travel. A few years ago we went on a "BBQ" tour of the southern US (on our never ending quest for the best BBQ). The food was amazing (thank goodness I wore stretchy pants)but I found the areas we went to a bit uncomfortable. We just stood out so. My husband is white and I am brown and I perceived that we were being judged (it is entirely possible that people were staring because we had BBQ sauce on our faces). It was also unsettling to see how divided the white/black/hispanic/rich/poor neighbourhoods were. Each different neighbourhood seemed so homogeneous. Of course there is racism/cultural divide in Canada - but at least in the city I live in there is a lot of cultural diversity and I like that (although we could do with some better BBQ places)

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I liked Savannah and Tybee Island a lot ,but I know we wouldn't fit in. I hated the traffic around Atlanta,although my friend said its liberal enough for us.(she lived there for years and she is a raw foods yoga teacher. ) My GA. choices are limited to where my DH could transfer, which is Augusta, Decatur,and Dublin. I am on a secular homeschool board in GA. and they have enough of "my kind" of people around the Atlanta area I could do it as long as I could find a house on at least an acre. I want to be 1/2 an hour out of any city and I do NOT want neighbors.

VA. is not warm enough, they still get snow and freezing weather. I have said when we finally move south it will be no more snow or only a freak snow storm once in a while.

You do NOT want to move to Decatur. I don't like driving through Dekalb county, let alone living in it. It's a scary place. Not as bad as SW Atlanta/Clayton County, but a close second.

Augusta isn't bad, but it seems like they had a lot of growth and didn't plan very well for it. I hate going there because it always seems like there is a lot of construction, but nothing ever seems to get done.

Now Dublin could be considered rural. My dad lived there for a few years and I have a lot of friends who grew up there. The thing about Laurens County/Dublin is that it's in the middle of nowhere on I16. You have to drive FOREVER to get to something worthwhile -- and that forever would only take you to Macon. The next closest major city going south would be Savannah. I went to college in Statesboro, and that would be about the only place you could get gas on the way TO Savannah.

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I understand this thread offends some. I'm Canadian and as I said, have never been to the South so perhaps I shouldn't say this. BUT, the fact is regionalism has created issues in the U.S. since its inception, especially the North/South divide. The fact is, the South has always been a place of blatant and often socially sanctioned racism. This is not to say that racism doesn't exist in the North. It exists in every region of every country, but it's always been a "patriarchal institution" of the South. To not speak against it is to condone it.

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To not speak against it is to condone it.

I really don't want to give the impression that I don't think the south is racist as as all fuck-out. I think the entire country is, haha.

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You do NOT want to move to Decatur. I don't like driving through Dekalb county, let alone living in it. It's a scary place. Not as bad as SW Atlanta/Clayton County, but a close second.

Augusta isn't bad, but it seems like they had a lot of growth and didn't plan very well for it. I hate going there because it always seems like there is a lot of construction, but nothing ever seems to get done.

Now Dublin could be considered rural. My dad lived there for a few years and I have a lot of friends who grew up there. The thing about Laurens County/Dublin is that it's in the middle of nowhere on I16. You have to drive FOREVER to get to something worthwhile -- and that forever would only take you to Macon. The next closest major city going south would be Savannah. I went to college in Statesboro, and that would be about the only place you could get gas on the way TO Savannah.

Clayton County scares the crap out of me! My family lives in Gwinnett County but I go to school in Cobb, which I don't mind those two counties, although there's not much to do unless we drive to Atlanta. My little sister went to Oxford College at Emory for a semester--now THAT'S in the middle of nowhere. That and driving down to Statesboro. Pretty university but outside of the college, there's absolutely nothing.

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Gosh, sometimes I forget what the north was like...

I grew up in the segregated South. Then I moved to New England. Suburbs filled with white folks as far as the eye can see...my high school had ZERO people of color, other than the 6 boys in one of those feel-good programs that brought "poor l'il ethnic boys" to the glorious suburbs to experience the "good" life, devoid of anyone that looked like them, talked like them, enjoyed the same music, etc. If those kids hadn't been bright, determined students, they would've all run screaming out of there on the first day. As it is, most of them felt a lot like those kids walking into Little Rock High School. While there wasn't much overt negativity, they had almost no friends other than themselves. Kids were nice to them, but you never saw them visiting anyone's home or being invited to church by those nice liberal New Englanders. We had no Indian, Chinese, Asian, African-American, South American, or anything other than white as far as the eye could see. Even our exchange students came from nice, safe European countries.

In my large New England state university, the African-American students tended to bond together for protection, as much as for a sense of familiarity. I dated someone of Caribbean nationality, and had my dorm door set on fire by the nice racists next door. In New England, it was easy to be liberal from a distance. White people lived in the pretty suburbs and small towns, and black people lived in the ugly parts of the cities. As long as they didn't have to actually see or be in the presence of a non-white person, the whites could feel quite superior about their condescending attitudes towards those "poor black folks." Face to face, different story completely. As one of my African-American friends said to me some years later, "At least in the South I knew exactly who was my friend and whom I should avoid. In New England, they'll all smile at your face and stab you in the back. I never know whom to trust." Don't forget, while New Englanders vilified the South for segregation woes in the 60's, Boston was one of the most horrific places to be when the courts ordered an end to the de facto segregation of schools. I lived there when Bostonians were throwing rocks at school busses full of innocent children. Same thing in Detroit, BTW.

As for religion, well, unlike the South, no one asked us what church we attended when we first moved there. On the other hand, that's because their prejudice is soooo much more subtle. You see, in small town New England, Episcopalians rule the roost. All those old New England families (who, BTW, think their sh*t don't stink 'cause it came over in the Mayflower) don't openly diss you, they simply ignore you. You don't exist if you're not one of "them." You don't get invited to their parties, you can't join their country clubs, and you certainly don't get to date any of their children. Just not done, old boy, doncha know?

So, the moral of my little diatribe is...bad, stupid, ignorant people live everywhere. Decent, kind, intelligent people live everywhere. Tarring any one part of the country with a nasty brush is a foolish waste of time.

Gee whiz, Kitten, would you mind telling us where the heck in New England you lived, and where you went to college? New England, from state to state, and within states, is far more diverse than many people realize.

I was born in New York City, and have lived in central Connecticut for the past 56 years, in what has morphed, over the years, from a blue-collar factory town to a strange combination of inner-city and suburban bedroom-town enclaves. We've become very diverse here: white (including many new immigrants from eastern Europe), black, Latino (mostly from Puerto Rico), southeast Asians, and now growing numbers of Middle Easterners, Indians, and Pakistanis. There are a mosque and Sikh and Hindu temples nearby. The town has changed a lot since I was a kid, to the point where I (of Italian-Catholic heritage) feel ill-at-ease when I go to Whitey McWhiteville areas. (Honest to God. As in, "Oh, good--there's an AA/Latino/Middle Eastern person." Diverse is what I consider normal.)

I do sympathize with anyone looking to relocate within the US, though: it would be heartbreaking to invest the time, money, and emotional energy to uproot your family and find yourself ensconced among douches.

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"You do NOT want to move to Decatur. I don't like driving through Dekalb county, let alone living in it. It's a scary place. Not as bad as SW Atlanta/Clayton County, but a close second."

Depends on where in Decatur - southern Decatur, below of memorial drive? yes, that is scary and has a lot of gang violence. i have, however, driven through there as that is where the DMV is. northern decatur (consisting of north decatur, city of decatur, avondale, oakhurst) is very safe .... well, avondale is pretty safe. Decatur is a big area as is Dekalb county.

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I do sympathize with anyone looking to relocate within the US, though: it would be heartbreaking to invest the time, money, and emotional energy to uproot your family and find yourself ensconced among douches.

Which can happen within a state. I moved to within an hour of where I grew up and just didn't fit in- I appear white, but I just wasn't conservative enough. I now have moved to a still pretty white area, but much more mixed in terms of conservative to liberal. Much happier here, and I just commute to work.

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I find this thread interesting. I'm from the South- I was born there and I have many relatives there, but I was raised in New England my whole life. My Southern relatives do not fully accept me because I'm what they call a 'Yankee', even though I'm from the South. My relatives are those backwoods, hick-ish types. As for racism, there are racists everywhere- both North and South. However, I would much rather live here in New England, especially my part of New England. People are generally more accepting of other cultures than in the South (again, I'm using my Southern relatives as a reference). There's more diversity here. I looked into going to college in South Carolina but it seems like the colleges there are a little too religious for my liking.

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i grew up in NC and lived there until i married at age 32...i grew up in charlotte, and would never live there again. it's so rich, so conservative. i feel out of place pumping gas without cashmere and pearls.

i went to school in chapel hill, and then moved to durham after i graduated, and my "after college apartment mate" got married, because i couldnt afford an apt alone in chappy.

durham KICKS ASS. it's super liberal (they organized not only to keep out walmart, but also large chain booksellers), very diverse (best vietnamese sticky rice i've ever had, on ninth street), artsy, eco-conscious, fabulous.

I'd move back to NC in a skinny minute, but only certain areas...back to durham, certainly. and another ten cheers for asheville. ah, asheville. one of the best cities in the country, no doubt.

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Asheville is a pretty cool place. I always thought that Black Mountain was a kind of hippy place too. I know it has some christian college there, but from times I visited it seemed pretty laid back and crunchy. I've only been to Charlotte a couple of times, but I would never live there. They have tons of mega-churches and that Billy Graham center and is plastered with christian billboards.

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Well Hell --

This over-generalized, stereotyping, hateful, jugemental bullshit is why I dislike the fundie blogs and hang around FJ.

I must say yall are doing it up well - some of you must have picked up a thing or two from the blogs you read.

I live in Alabama - I am a feminist, liberal, and independent thinker with a college degree. I go to the Espiscopal church and am married to a practicing Buddhist. I have adopted from Foster Care and I homeschool. I drink sweet iced tea and vodka tonics.

Not everyone in the South hates the uppity Yankees who talk too fast and are rude to people. ;)

If you are looking for a liberal little artsy town with a good UU church - check out Fairhope, Alabama.

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Not everyone in the South hates the uppity Yankees who talk too fast and are rude to people. ;)

One would only hope, but here are anecdotes from two different (New England) friends of mine, neither of whom knows the other:

Friend #1 was in South Carolina in a furniture store, completing a large purchase. After he rang it up, the salesman said, "Y'all know the difference between Yankees and Damn Yankees? Yankees LEAVE." My friend wishes she'd had the gumption to cancel the sale, but she was gobsmacked. I would have, and, to add to it, would have thought of tossing in something like, "Hey, our side won the war--sucks to be you."

Friend #2 was in San Antonio, Texas, at a business meeting of a head honcho of AT&T. After introductions, the honcho said, "Y'all know the difference between Yankees and Damn Yankees? Yankees LEAVE." She and her colleagues sat there dumbfounded. Had I been there, I wish I'd had the presence of mind to say, "Oh, so that's what they call 'Southern hospitality.'"

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Just an observation - a lot of the south-bashing on this thread is really just "stories" someone heard from their "friend", "cousin", "mother's ex-boyfriends former roomate". For all anyone knows the "story" is exaggerated or even totally made up. Please don't assume the entire south is racist or anti-semetic based on a few anecdotes you heard from someone who visited the south once or twice. I don't judge the north based on Jersey Shore. Please don't judge the south based on a few people you don't like or the way it is portrayed (or exaggerated) in the media.

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Nora, calm down. There have been some jerky comments, but I think most of the posters in the thread have avoided the jump from "X happened to so-and-so" to "the entire South is racist". A number of people have carefully reiterated that racism and small-mindedness are everywhere and they come in all different forms.

I'm from the Midwest and I've since moved to the Northeast with a stint in Europe in between. Regional differences are real. I'm not saying that Midwesterners are better or worse than urban Northeasterners, but I have thought a lot about what makes these regions different and some of the advantages/disadvantages of each. I note some differences in how people interact when I go to visit friends in Texas as well. There actually are a lot more religious signs on highways and businesses, and strangers freak me out by smiling when we make eye contact, lol. ('Do you know me???') There are more trucks on the road in their area and being green is less popular there than it is in my neighborhood. And I can tell you that I've heard a lot more racist jokes in various groups and situations when I lived in the Midwest than I do when I'm in the Northeast. That's not to say that people aren't racist out here, but there are sociological factors that cause this to be manifested differently. I know there are all kinds of exceptions, but there are general trends in thought and custom in different regions.

I've spent a lot of time in different regions and I've formed opinions about what kind of feel different places have. This will affect my choice of where to live. Doesn't mean I think all Southerners/New Yorkers/Midwesterners are bad or good. Just means that I feel more comfortable and at home culturally in some places than others.

Fair enough?

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Gosh, sometimes I forget what the north was like...

I grew up in the segregated South. Then I moved to New England. Suburbs filled with white folks as far as the eye can see...my high school had ZERO people of color, other than the 6 boys in one of those feel-good programs that brought "poor l'il ethnic boys" to the glorious suburbs to experience the "good" life, devoid of anyone that looked like them, talked like them, enjoyed the same music, etc. If those kids hadn't been bright, determined students, they would've all run screaming out of there on the first day. As it is, most of them felt a lot like those kids walking into Little Rock High School. While there wasn't much overt negativity, they had almost no friends other than themselves. Kids were nice to them, but you never saw them visiting anyone's home or being invited to church by those nice liberal New Englanders. We had no Indian, Chinese, Asian, African-American, South American, or anything other than white as far as the eye could see. Even our exchange students came from nice, safe European countries.

In my large New England state university, the African-American students tended to bond together for protection, as much as for a sense of familiarity. I dated someone of Caribbean nationality, and had my dorm door set on fire by the nice racists next door. In New England, it was easy to be liberal from a distance. White people lived in the pretty suburbs and small towns, and black people lived in the ugly parts of the cities. As long as they didn't have to actually see or be in the presence of a non-white person, the whites could feel quite superior about their condescending attitudes towards those "poor black folks." Face to face, different story completely. As one of my African-American friends said to me some years later, "At least in the South I knew exactly who was my friend and whom I should avoid. In New England, they'll all smile at your face and stab you in the back. I never know whom to trust." Don't forget, while New Englanders vilified the South for segregation woes in the 60's, Boston was one of the most horrific places to be when the courts ordered an end to the de facto segregation of schools. I lived there when Bostonians were throwing rocks at school busses full of innocent children. Same thing in Detroit, BTW.

As for religion, well, unlike the South, no one asked us what church we attended when we first moved there. On the other hand, that's because their prejudice is soooo much more subtle. You see, in small town New England, Episcopalians rule the roost. All those old New England families (who, BTW, think their sh*t don't stink 'cause it came over in the Mayflower) don't openly diss you, they simply ignore you. You don't exist if you're not one of "them." You don't get invited to their parties, you can't join their country clubs, and you certainly don't get to date any of their children. Just not done, old boy, doncha know?

Wow you could have almost completely described my childhood in southern rural Virginia. My family moved there when I was ten and we were met many superficially polite southerners who wanted nothing to do with you if you couldn't trace your lineage in the south back a few generations. Church was a central part of life because that's where you get all the good gossip about your neighbors. Everyone seemed to know everyone and chances are you'd run into someone you knew at Wal Mart. The nicest neighborhoods in town would only allow WASPs to live in it until mabye 30 years ago. I'm actually not sure if any non-WASPs have moved in since they took down the signs.

I went to a private school (the public schools weren't very good) that was founded exactly during the time period when integration became enforced. All the other schools in our athletic conferences were founded around the same time, and for the same reasons. The school, to its credit was trying desperately to create an image of being diverse with almost laughable results. There was a small population of south Asian students, a very small (maybe 5 or 6?) population of blacks and an even smaller population of Jews at my school.

As a Jew I didn't experience a lot of outright anti-antisemitism, except for one memorable incident where I was told a kid that i had a crush on that I was Jewish and he immediately stopped being nice to me and started calling me a "Hebrew/" I also had an incident where I was told I was going to hell for not believing in Jesus. Mostly my religion was treated as an oddity or an object of pity because I wasn't saved and I didn't get as many presents at Hanukkah as they did for Christmas.

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  • 1 year later...

Unearthing this topic from the depths of the server after a long talk with DH. Background: we grew up in Israel, now happily in Canada. His family moved to the US and have been living in the South for several years, with one family member marrying a conservative Christian. He's visiting and apparently some of them have become full-tilt GOPers, complete with loaded guns carried at all times, racist jokes, long rants against Obama and owning a body armour.

DH apparently doesn't think it's a bad way to live. He tried to explain that he has a right to protect himself, bla bla bla, and I said I have the right to be protected from someone at the grocery store who is pissed off that they're out of soy milk. At least he had nothing in his defence when I asked him if he would be comfortable living in a place that restricts abortions and abhors teh gayz. I told him he married a bleeding heart librul who will not keep sweet.

But seriously - when I visit, I feel this place goes against every single one of my core beliefs (other than quilting. I love the quilts). True, the houses are gorgeous and cheap, nature is beautiful, the people are laid-back and there are no hailstorms in July or snow in September. But it seems there's a deep mistrust of the government and a constant need to defend yourself from who-knows-what.

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Lived in Dothan Alabama until 1969, complete with segregated coffee shop and public schools. Lived in NJ since then. There are still certain parts of South Philly and Arthur Ave. that I would not advise a person of color to frequent after dark, owing to the mindset of the local populace. Translation: the South is just more open about it. ( and yes, I know all of the arguments for "protecting" our neighborhood etc.)

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I'm from NJ as well, so I am the very last person who would ever deny that that there can be as much racism in the North as in the South. The North manifests it's racism differently. The thing that makes the South a no-go for me in terms of ever living there is the religiosity. It makes me nucking futs every time I'm there. "Where do you go to church?" would probably be answered with "None of your fucking business" in my part of NJ. There is a reason there's only one place they call me one of their own. ;) :lol:

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If we're going on anecdotes, here's one: I grew up in the South, but have lived most of my adult life in the Midwest. I've seen more racism there than I ever did in my hometown in Texas. There are things I dearly love about both places, but after long consideration I've decided I prefer to live in the South. I'm a (liberal) Christian so the tendency toward religion doesn't bother me. Being introverted and somewhat socially awkward, life is just easier in the South (at least the places where I've lived). In the South, in my experience, if you're standing alone at a public function looking awkward and uncomfortable, people strike up conversations and try to make you feel at home. In the North they sort of... give you the side-eye and try to avoid getting too close.*

*My experience. Not meant to be a blanket statement. Yes, there are people in the South who will give you the cold shoulder; some areas are clannish and xenophobic, but those aren't the areas I've lived in. Yes, there are super sweet and friendly people in the North; I'm friends with some. But it's been my experience that in the North, the burden of striking up conversations and forming friendships is placed on the newcomer, the person in an unknown and potentially intimidating environment. In the South (the parts where I've lived), the burden of striking up conversations and forming friendships is put on the locals, people who are already comfortable and secure in a known environment. Where I grew up, you are expected to be friendly and welcoming to new people because they are new and probably feel awkward. It doesn't seem to be that way in the North, at least not where I've lived.

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