Sometimes I forget what the south is like

[O Latin]

I've only been to the South on a choir trip, so I didn't really get a sense of the culture, but based on what people here have said, I think I could tolerate it. What would be the deal breaker for me is the weather. I looooooove winter. Where I live it gets hot in the summer and cold in the winter and I am already dreaming about scarves and boots and fires in the fireplace and actually sleeping with the covers on. I can't wait for September just so I can start hoping for a few not so hot days. Down with the 90 degree heat!

[Mommy22alyns]

Everyone in the South is nice... until you get to know them. Then they turn into gossipy, uptight, backstabbing assholes. It's amazing how much of a hold the good ol' boy politics have

.

This. I live in the South and have for so long... gosh, 25 years or so? I'm a Yankee at heart and would move back North in a flash if I could. Anyway, we live in a small town and have been here for 7+ years and have NO friends. None. My girls have been in the same activities for up to 5 years. You're just not cool unless you go to "charch" with them or know their brother's uncle's cousin. Whatever.

[Alecto]

Alecto, I have only driven through AR, Eureka Springs sounds like somewhere I will check out.

I love Eureka Springs. If you come to town, stay at one of the downtown hotels, and take a ghost tour! Heck, let me know when and I would love to come show you around.

[clibbyjo]

This. I live in the South and have for so long... gosh, 25 years or so? I'm a Yankee at heart and would move back North in a flash if I could. Anyway, we live in a small town and have been here for 7+ years and have NO friends. None. My girls have been in the same activities for up to 5 years. You're just not cool unless you go to "charch" with them or know their brother's uncle's cousin. Whatever.

Ewwwwww, how can you stand it? Isn't there a UU church somewhere within a drive you can find people at? I would look for the UU,it will save you!(and I am not even UU, but many of my friends are)

[Mommy22alyns]

Ewwwwww, how can you stand it? Isn't there a UU church somewhere within a drive you can find people at? I would look for the UU,it will save you!(and I am not even UU, but many of my friends are)

Hah, the nearest UU church is over 45 min. away!

[Kitten]

Gosh, sometimes I forget what the north was like...

I grew up in the segregated South. Then I moved to New England. Suburbs filled with white folks as far as the eye can see...my high school had ZERO people of color, other than the 6 boys in one of those feel-good programs that brought "poor l'il ethnic boys" to the glorious suburbs to experience the "good" life, devoid of anyone that looked like them, talked like them, enjoyed the same music, etc. If those kids hadn't been bright, determined students, they would've all run screaming out of there on the first day. As it is, most of them felt a lot like those kids walking into Little Rock High School. While there wasn't much overt negativity, they had almost no friends other than themselves. Kids were nice to them, but you never saw them visiting anyone's home or being invited to church by those nice liberal New Englanders. We had no Indian, Chinese, Asian, African-American, South American, or anything other than white as far as the eye could see. Even our exchange students came from nice, safe European countries.

In my large New England state university, the African-American students tended to bond together for protection, as much as for a sense of familiarity. I dated someone of Caribbean nationality, and had my dorm door set on fire by the nice racists next door. In New England, it was easy to be liberal from a distance. White people lived in the pretty suburbs and small towns, and black people lived in the ugly parts of the cities. As long as they didn't have to actually see or be in the presence of a non-white person, the whites could feel quite superior about their condescending attitudes towards those "poor black folks." Face to face, different story completely. As one of my African-American friends said to me some years later, "At least in the South I knew exactly who was my friend and whom I should avoid. In New England, they'll all smile at your face and stab you in the back. I never know whom to trust." Don't forget, while New Englanders vilified the South for segregation woes in the 60's, Boston was one of the most horrific places to be when the courts ordered an end to the de facto segregation of schools. I lived there when Bostonians were throwing rocks at school busses full of innocent children. Same thing in Detroit, BTW.

As for religion, well, unlike the South, no one asked us what church we attended when we first moved there. On the other hand, that's because their prejudice is soooo much more subtle. You see, in small town New England, Episcopalians rule the roost. All those old New England families (who, BTW, think their sh*t don't stink 'cause it came over in the Mayflower) don't openly diss you, they simply ignore you. You don't exist if you're not one of "them." You don't get invited to their parties, you can't join their country clubs, and you certainly don't get to date any of their children. Just not done, old boy, doncha know?

Along the entire West Coast, states are divided between their large, more liberal cities, and the rural conservative small towns that make up the "rest" of the state. Bitter battles are fought every year in the legislatures between these two groups. There's a reason why a lot of crazy Aryan Supremacists and fundies live in rural areas in the West. Portland and Seattle are some of the whitest cities you'll ever see, and they consistently rank high in the "liberal" category. Yet I had a Sikh friend who felt compelled to wear a t-shirt saying "I am NOT a Muslim" just after 9/11, because of threats to him on the street.

When I was living in Europe years ago, people over there professed their utter disbelief over our racism and segregation history. Now that many countries are experiencing an large influx of people who don't look like them or worship like them, we get "Paki" and "Monkey" slurs being thrown out at soccer matches, anti-headscarf laws in France, the shootings and bombing in Norway, and the rise of overt racism/religious zealotry throughout the European countries.

I can relate similar stories about the Midwest, Southwest, wherever you want to point to on the map. Again, it is easy to be liberal when there aren't many of "Them" around, whoever "they" may be - races, religions, education, whatever measuring stick you're using. So, the moral of my little diatribe is...bad, stupid, ignorant people live everywhere. Decent, kind, intelligent people live everywhere. Tarring any one part of the country with a nasty brush is a foolish waste of time.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I can relate similar stories about the Midwest, Southwest, wherever you want to point to on the map. Again, it is easy to be liberal when there aren't many of "Them" around, whoever "they" may be - races, religions, education, whatever measuring stick you're using. So, the moral of my little diatribe is...bad, stupid, ignorant people live everywhere. Decent, kind, intelligent people live everywhere. Tarring any one part of the country with a nasty brush is a foolish waste of time.

QFT. Too often the South is pointed to as kind of a smoke and mirrors distraction from the racism and bullshit that is alive and well in a great deal of the rest of the country. But look over there! A racist!

[Rachel333]

I've lived in the south all my life, and the worst racism I've experienced was in supposedly liberal France. I've also met lots of non-southerners who thought the south was incredibly racist, but said a lot of more subtly racist things themselves. People tend to think of Jim Crow laws and the KKK, but I think these days racism is a lot more insidious and happens everywhere.

I have never ever seen any anti-Semitism at all. I'm sure it exists (and obviously has been a huge problem historically and still is in many areas), but Jewish people seem to have the unique position of being liked by both liberals and fundies (which can be its own problem; see all the discussions here about faux Jews). I think it helps that there are very few Jewish people here. I knew a Jewish girl who lived in Boston and was dreading moving here because she thought she would encounter a lot of racism, but she said it was a lot better here than on the East coast. But again, I think the fact that there aren't many Jewish people here makes a big difference.

The worst racism I've personally seen has been directed towards the Latino community. It's awful, but I don't think that stuff is confined to the South. I've heard quite a few people from other areas with large Latino populations, like California and Florida, say some really racist things.

I've never encountered any overt racism towards black people because I think people realize how unacceptable that is. I've definitely seen a lot of more subtle stuff, like people being uncomfortable with black men but not with white. I think because racism against black people is so very unacceptable, though, that people will not admit that it still exists. Again, I've seen it just as bad among people from other parts of the country as I have in the south.

I do have to say that while I have definitely experienced the conservative South, I live in a pretty liberal area. I don't really have any desire to live anywhere in Arkansas outside Fayetteville, and I'd like to get out of even Fayetteville pretty soon. It was a good place to grow up, though, and I think it's too bad that people mainly associate the area with the Duggars. My high school in particular (which Michelle Duggar went to, I think) was super liberal. Obama won our mock election by a landslide. I feel like people are actually more conservative in college, probably because most are from other areas of the state. Still, it's a good place.

I'm curious about the horns thing. Do people really think that? I find that hard to believe, but I've a lot of stories of people thinking someone had horns because they were Mormon or Jewish. It just sounds like something you would just say, like "When they found out we were Jewish, they looked at us like we had horns" rather than being literally true, but I know there are some really ignorant people out there. It's just so weird to me.

[ems]

Not as far south as GA or LA, but there's a secular, eclectic homeschooling community near Blacksburg, VA(home of Va. Tech). One of my friends used to live there and she'd make money on the side because a local co-op would hire her to teach high school science - she's an evolutionary biologist.

Actually, this website looks like a goldmine of secular and more moderate Christian homeschool groups for Virginia. The fundies and fundie lights tend to join HEAV around here.

http://www.vahomeschoolers.org/support/

This might help you, too. I don't homeschool, but this site popped on Google when I was unsuccessfully trying to find the name of the Blacksburg group my friend tutored for before she moved.

http://www.secularhomeschool.com/conten ... s-by-State

Maybe checkout bestplaces.net, although I don't know how much that would help with the homeschooling..

[clibbyjo]

Yes, there are bad apples everywhere. No one said the whole south was bad.(the whole point of my part of the discussion is where to live,because you know I WANT to move south.)

I run a secular homeschooling group,one of only 2 in Western Pa. We have members of ALL backgrounds. My friends and my kids friends are all races and all religions. Our members live in the city and country. We have Drs. down to high school educated Moms teaching our kids. It doesn't matter.WE all travel to meet because we want our kids growing up in a place were everyone is accepted. These are the people we hang out with, my kids don't know anything else but we accept everyone except haters. There is no color or religion line in their world. If someone is missing fencing practice for a month because its Ramadan, ok ,see you next month.Having 2 moms is normal. Having bi-racial friends from the time you are born doesn't make a kid question why mom AA and dad isn't. Even the Christians in our group chose us over the Christian homeschool groups because they don't want their kids raised in that environment.I know this is a utopia , I wouldn't walk away from it easily.

Asking about "where to live in the south" when you are a liberal person thinking of moving there is a valid question. Especially when you want real answers from other liberals. I practice what I preach and expose my kids to all cultures and lifestyles on a daily basis. I will never knowingly move to a redneck town full of haters who will hate us because we aren't "their kind". You have no idea what the homeschool community is like, try being a liberal homeschooler in the south. Damn right I am going to get a feel of places first.

I lived outside of New Orleans for 2 years and the "good ole boy" mentality and racism made me leave. Not just in my neighborhood, but at the college where my husband was in grad school,and the places we both worked. I think I got a pretty good idea what southern Lousiana is like for people like me, and I do not want to make that mistake again.

[Alecto]

I don't really have any desire to live anywhere in Arkansas outside Fayetteville, and I'd like to get out of even Fayetteville pretty soon.

Little Rock is probably as liberal as Fayetteville, for what it is worth.

[Rachel333]

I guess I've never spent much time there. I've kind of got this prejudice against Little Rock, and I'm not sure why. I suppose I should visit sometime. I also hadn't realized until recently that Eureka Springs had a liberal reputation. I always thought of it as a place for old people, sort of a Branson-lite.

The homeschool community I grew up in here was awful. Very fundie, and I think it made my already conservative family more so for a while before we started distancing ourselves from that group. I think there are several secular homeschooling groups around here, though. I've definitely met some pretty hippie homeschoolers.

[slickcat79]

Where in PA. are you moving? If its western PA.(near Pittsburgh),there is a lot of cool, stuff going on. I will swap you your heat and country living for my cold and country living. IF you would like to stay her in January/Feb., I will gladly do it then.

It would be Pittsburgh actually. My best friend is starting work at AGH and wants me to come with her. If I decide to go, the move would not be happening until next summer, probably May/June.

Feel free to score me some Pens season tickets :lol:

[Alecto]

I guess I've never spent much time there. I've kind of got this prejudice against Little Rock, and I'm not sure why. I suppose I should visit sometime. I also hadn't realized until recently that Eureka Springs had a liberal reputation. I always thought of it as a place for old people, sort of a Branson-lite.

The homeschool community I grew up in here was awful. Very fundie, and I think it made my already conservative family more so for a while before we started distancing ourselves from that group. I think there are several secular homeschooling groups around here, though. I've definitely met some pretty hippie homeschoolers.

One of our most liberal state senators is Joyce Elliot (whom I adore, just so you know) and she's from Little Rock. Any woman who can rock a ubershort haircut and own it is alright in my book. That being said, Little Rock does have some conservative enclaves, like Chennal Valley and Hillcrest, but the Heights, Midtown, Fair Park, Quawpaw (which is totally the gay neighborhood) and tons of other neighborhoods are super hip and liberal. I know several of the high schools have GSA clubs. The gay pride parade, pagan festivals and other non-traditional events are very well attended in Little Rock.

I am actually moving back there next weekend. I can't wait.

[EvilHarlot]

We refer to Augusta as "Disgusta." The river stinks and it's not a nice place to live, although there are some awesome indie art galleries there, so I'll give it that. Dublin is very conservative, and Decatur's rallying cry is "A city of homes, schools, and churches."

I'd love to live somewhere else. But the grass is always greener, and by all means more liberal people moving here could only improve the place. On the plus side, depending on where you are, land and houses can be purchased very reasonably. Of course the cheaper the area/farther out from metro areas you go, the more intolerant people tend to be. You can pay $500,000 for a McMansion on a postage stamp sized yard, or spend $150,000 on a three or four bedroom split level on three acres.

Don't EVER move to Augusta,GA! I moved to Augusta from Columbus Ohio last year. It stinks!! I don't mean that as a metaphor either. It's not the river that makes it smell, it's the industrial areas to the east and south of town.

There is only two places to live, the boring suburbs or the rural ghetto. And the food here is HORRIBLE! And the "art scene" people talk about? Please don't make me laugh!!!

I can not describe how much I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE this place!! And it's very true about Southerners being nice until you get to know them. When they find out you aren't exactly like them in everyway, they are horrible. Before this I couldn't wait until the day I could move somewhere where there was no snow, but now I realize what a HUGE mistake I've made!

I just wish I could get a job back up north, but in this economy I'm not every hopeful :(

[xDreamerx]

I'm curious about the horns thing. Do people really think that? I find that hard to believe, but I've a lot of stories of people thinking someone had horns because they were Mormon or Jewish. It just sounds like something you would just say, like "When they found out we were Jewish, they looked at us like we had horns" rather than being literally true, but I know there are some really ignorant people out there. It's just so weird to me.

Yep. It's a real thing. I'm not sure how it started, but there was even an episode of Little House about it. Albert goes to work for a Jewish carpenter and the kids at school are really mean to him because of it. In one scene, he's afraid the man has horns because it's what he had heard. The man removes his hat to prove to Albert he doesn't have them and Albert learns a little about Jewish culture along the way.

[lalapendragon]

Having lived in Williamsburg, VA for four years and recently having spent a great deal of time in other parts of rural VA over the last five years I have not detected one bit of anti-semitism nor fawning over the Jews as the chosen people. Yes, people go to church but nobody has even suggested I join them but people have been very kind and friendly and I do not feel excluded in any way. And I would much prefer to live in rural VA than in NYC where I am a native.

People are racist everywhere sadly and I have not seen it any more obviously displayed in VA than anywhere else. If anything else it is economic racism and there are plenty of poor white people living in shacks.

I also never see any people of color in my neighborhood in NYC other than babysitters or housekeepers. And in suburban nothern Westchester County it is a surprise to ever see anyone who is not white.

I will agree the south is generally more christian but lets not act like it is all a bunch of crackers just itching to burn crosses. I have not hidden the fact I am Jewish and nobody has asked about my horns or tail.

Charlottesville, VA is a beautiful college town and has relatively temperate weather. Boone, NC also a relatively liberal college town in the mountains. There are plenty of beautiful, tolerant towns in the South where people are not being fake they actually are good neighbors and friends.

[Annette]

This is off-topic as far as location goes, but this is weighing on me.

A friend of mine was telling me the other day about some kids that run around unsupervised on her street. They play in the street over blind hills and scratch cars with their toys. She has told them in a few occasions that cars can't see them when they are coming over the hill and that they could get hurt. The children are rude and don't listen. Apparently she then complains to her husband about "those stupid Hispanic kids!"

I expressed my disapproval at her choice of words, but I am baffled as to why she chose to tell me that part of the anecdote. For one, she knows I am Mexican-American, and for another, she already knows how I feel about those kinds of outbursts (we've had a talk before about the exclamation "stupid n*****" upon finding a neighbor parked in her space. Sorry, but if you're going to talk like that, I want to be elsewhere). I don't know if she wants me to laugh along and absolve her of her guilt and just make her feel okay about it, or what.

[PBrooke]

MIght I ask where you live? I definitely think there's some latent racism there (ie why not just call them "kids") but one thing I have learned is that if you're from the West - where there are more people of Mexican descent - then "Hispanic" is actually considered a slur. In contrast, in Florida, where there are more people from the Dominican Republic, or, yknow, Hispanola, calling someone Hispanic is akin to saying someone's Asian. So depending on where you are in the country, it can range from her being just rather insensitive to being very offensive.

[clibbyjo]

MIght I ask where you live? I definitely think there's some latent racism there (ie why not just call them "kids") but one thing I have learned is that if you're from the West - where there are more people of Mexican descent - then "Hispanic" is actually considered a slur. In contrast, in Florida, where there are more people from the Dominican Republic, or, yknow, Hispanola, calling someone Hispanic is akin to saying someone's Asian. So depending on where you are in the country, it can range from her being just rather insensitive to being very offensive.

My younger sister lives in Taos NM. and her ex-husband considered himself Spanish.He had a whole thing about his family has been there for generations and are descended from the Conquistadors and he is SPANISH not Mexican or Hispanic. MY sister said most of his friends would also say they were Spanish,because that shows they have been there longer than the Mexicans who have only been there a few generations. (Which is funny because the Native American's on the Pueblo next door have been there 1000 years so why does it matter how long they have been there so much?)

[emmiedahl]

Racism is everywhere, indeed.

My town is half Hispanic (that's the accepted term here because they are from a variety of countries). They do seem to have different cultural mores regarding the amount of supervision young children require, but they are generally good members of the community. There are some Latino gang problems, but (as I am always pointing out) the gangstas are almost always legal and the crime stays in their neighborhoods so why are white people so up in arms?

Whenever someone complains about the problem of too many "Mexicans", I ask what they do for a living. Invariably, they are farmers or landscapers or another group that milks these poor people for low cost labor. If you are making millions every year from illegal labor, STFU already.

The most shocking racist comments I have heard in this town are from self-professing liberals. Really, it's surprising if you are moving here from California.

Ironically, no one here even cares about non-Hispanic minorities. Yakima is color-blind unless you happen to be Spanish-speaking. And then, all people can see is your nationality. Racists are dirty pigs, generally horrible people who should be verbally smacked down whenever they open their ugly mouths. I feel no guilt about making that statement.

[Beeks]

Yep. It's a real thing. I'm not sure how it started, but there was even an episode of Little House about it. Albert goes to work for a Jewish carpenter and the kids at school are really mean to him because of it. In one scene, he's afraid the man has horns because it's what he had heard. The man removes his hat to prove to Albert he doesn't have them and Albert learns a little about Jewish culture along the way.

I never really thought it was a real thing (anymore, anyway, it was a pretty common lie a looooong time ago) until those neighbors asked. My mom told me about it and I was just completely shocked, even as a kid. It was a good lesson for me though, that being Jewish can still be dangerous.

Also, I did not mean to paint the entire south with a bad brush and I apologize if that's how this thread came off. It really wasn't my intent.

[Kitchen Princess]

~~No one said the whole south was bad.~~

Yes they did. Something along the line of "Everyone is nice to your face--but will stab you in the back...." and lots of other derogatory stuff.

[Kitchen Princess]

One of our most liberal state senators is Joyce Elliot (whom I adore, just so you know) and she's from Little Rock. Any woman who can rock a ubershort haircut and own it is alright in my book. That being said, Little Rock does have some conservative enclaves, like Chennal Valley and Hillcrest, but the Heights, Midtown, Fair Park, Quawpaw (which is totally the gay neighborhood) and tons of other neighborhoods are super hip and liberal. I know several of the high schools have GSA clubs. The gay pride parade, pagan festivals and other non-traditional events are very well attended in Little Rock.

I am actually moving back there next weekend. I can't wait.

Hillcrest, are you kidding me? I know 40 people in Hillcrest, all of them liberal as the day is long.

[Alecto]

Hillcrest, are you kidding me? I know 40 people in Hillcrest, all of them liberal as the day is long.

A lot of the alumnae for my sorority who went to the big SEC schools are live in Hillcrest, and they are classic conservative old money types. It's also where the very white only Little Rock Country Club is.