The Seven Sisters stand outside and freeze.

[Vex]

...but that isn't all she can do. If she knows that a job as a paramedic exists (and it seems that she does), and she truly wants to do that, then she can tell her parents "Okay mom and dad, I love you guys and I hope you'll support me as I make my OWN decisions" and go off and do it. I'm not saying it's easy, but they aren't chaining her to the wall.

Yes, it is.

She has no life skills. She can't just walk out the door like a normal teenage girl, find a job and an apartment, get into college and apply for financial aid. She has no contacts who would support her in that. Her parents certainly wouldn't support her, they'd probably disown her.

She also does not have the education to do anything in the medical field.

You don't seem to grasp how sheltered and naive and isolated these girls are. We're not dealing with a regular family who just wants to live away from all the chaos of modern life. They are deliberately isolating the girls so they won't leave their belief system or their parents' home.

Protecting them from the outside world might see innocent enough, but the kind of sheltered naivety the girls posses would be a huge hindrance to them ever leaving home and their parents know this. It's calculated. They are hobbling their children so they never leave them outside of (a parent-approved, courtship-led) marriage.

Besides, the rules say the girls cannot got to college, cannot have jobs, and can't be in situations with strange men (i.e patients and coworkers).

[So Many Lies]

Yes they have raised them not to ever grow up. The subtext is so they won't be sexually sullied. It's an awful business. They are entitled to a full life, as women, with ALL that entails. Not as their parents possessions. The oldest must 25. They still share a bed. No cute posts, dresses, romps, rambles or decorating will make up for these facts.

[formergothardite]

Ramona, a person who has been raised with no education, no real access to meeting people who can help them, being trained since birth to view the world as evil, being trained since birth that God will rain down judgement on their head if they dare to disobey their parents has no real choice. Sure they can leave, but it would be extremely difficult. This is not just parents disapproving like your parents, this is parents creating a situation where it is almost impossible for their children to leave. Do the 7sisters have access to friends who can come pick them up if they want to leave? Access to any sort of money? I doubt it. They would essentially have to walk out of that house with nothing but the floofy dress they are wearing and keep walking till they hoped they found a stranger to help them.

[Triplet3]

[You don't seem to grasp how sheltered and naive and isolated these girls are. We're not dealing with a regular family who just wants to live away from all the chaos of modern life. They are deliberately isolating the girls so they won't leave their belief system or their parents' home.

But that's the thing, while they are definitely immature in some ways, to me they don't seem particularly isolated (as fundies go). I read their blog extensively, and it's obvious from posts and comments that they have real-life friends outside the family. They go to a proper church (not a Church of the Holy Basement) and seem to interact with others in their community. For example, at least a couple of the older girls play in a local youth orchestra that's secular as far as I can tell, they all do/did 4-H and they post about taking part in local community events such as a Christmas 'journey to Bethlehem'. While I agree they are immature in some ways, to me they come across as being way less isolated/sheltered than the Maxwells or Arndts, for example.

[pixydust]

But that's the thing, while they are definitely immature in some ways, to me they don't seem particularly isolated (as fundies go). I read their blog extensively, and it's obvious from posts and comments that they have real-life friends outside the family. They go to a proper church (not a Church of the Holy Basement) and seem to interact with others in their community. For example, at least a couple of the older girls play in a local youth orchestra that's secular as far as I can tell, they all do/did 4-H and they post about taking part in local community events such as a Christmas 'journey to Bethlehem'. While I agree they are immature in some ways, to me they come across as being way less isolated/sheltered than the Maxwells or Arndts, for example.

They are less isolated then say, the Maxwells, but they are not any more prepaired for the world. Sarah Maxwell might actually be more prepared, brmecause she has life experience, and I could see a church hiring her for secretarial work. The 7 sisters? They can birth a goat and sew frumpers, that wont get them any where.

As for their friends..do u think that if one of the girls left and asked a friend to take her in, that they would? She would be sinning, and the friend can't be a part of it. The friends parents would simply drive her back home, and lecture her on the rode home.

[VooDooChild]

I don't know what it says about me that I love their dresses :lol:

(they're pretty & colourful!)

:oops: I like their dresses, too. They remind me of the ones my mom used to sew for me when I was little.

[VooDooChild]

Yes they have raised them not to ever grow up. The subtext is so they won't be sexually sullied. It's an awful business. They are entitled to a full life, as women, with ALL that entails. Not as their parents possessions. The oldest must 25. They still share a bed. No cute posts, dresses, romps, rambles or decorating will make up for these facts.

So are these fundies terrified of sex or lack of self control? Or are they transferring the guilt of their own mistakes onto their offspring (by keeping such tight reins) as a form of penance? That suggests that they aren't secure in their faith or the forgiveness that is the foundation of said faith.

....my wannabe counselor coming out. :whistle:

[Triplet3]

They are less isolated then say, the Maxwells, but they are not any more prepaired for the world. Sarah Maxwell might actually be more prepared, brmecause she has life experience, and I could see a church hiring her for secretarial work. The 7 sisters? They can birth a goat and sew frumpers, that wont get them any where.

I think they probably could actually set up a proper sewing business - it's obvious that they have advanced sewing skills. I remember looking at their main post about their Christmas Day, and I was impressed at how many items of clothing and other things they made from scratch as presents for each other, and the quality of the final products. Some of the older girls could teach music (in fact at least one of them does already), one of them makes cakes to order at a high standard, and to be honest as they live in a rural area they probaby could earn some work helping out with livestock and other farm stuff. If I remember rightly, a Christmas family newsletter they put on their blog a couple of years ago said that Susannah and Jessica are good at organising, which I daresay would stand them in good stead in the outside world.

Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge they're sheltered and all that. I just think that despite the frumpers, they're not actually as isolated/sheltered as some people think.

[Megan]

I'm running bitdefender and it didnt have a problem with the site. Maybe it was an ad that showed up on your browser that set it off?

I've tried a few times and keep getting the same message, plus I have adblock. Oh well.

[So Many Lies]

They are less isolated then say, the Maxwells, but they are not any more prepaired for the world. Sarah Maxwell might actually be more prepared, brmecause she has life experience, and I could see a church hiring her for secretarial work. The 7 sisters? They can birth a goat and sew frumpers, that wont get them any where.

As for their friends..do u think that if one of the girls left and asked a friend to take her in, that they would? She would be sinning, and the friend can't be a part of it. The friends parents would simply drive her back home, and lecture her on the rode home.

Reckon the "friend" would tell someone if she was even talking about leaving. The friends are all friends of the family. They are all raised the same.

[So Many Lies]

So are these fundies terrified of sex or lack of self control? Or are they transferring the guilt of their own mistakes onto their offspring (by keeping such tight reins) as a form of penance? That suggests that they aren't secure in their faith or the forgiveness that is the foundation of said faith.

....my wannabe counselor coming out. :whistle:

Who knows for sure. But they do guard the daughters extremely jealously. I remember a thread some time ago delved into this issue at some length, particularly about the fact that they share beds etc. They have no privacy. Some suggest that the older sisters keep an eye on the younger and there is no opportunity for any *ahem* explorations. I do agree with your idea that "they aren't secure in their faith or in the forgiveness that is the foundaton of said faith"(How eloquent!). It's not in the Bible that you should shelter your daughters. Instead you are meant to go out in the world. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and lepers. Just like a lot of this fundie-prairie stuff - it's the tail wagging the dog.

I assume the parents are quiverfull minded. So why aren't their oldest daughters getting married off?

[Mommy22alyns]

Wow, their lives are... scintillating. :?

Aren't they the ones with the workout minded mom who gets to wear normal clothes? Have we ever figured out why they wear frumpers and head coverings, yet mom gets to wear workout (GASP) capris?

[Miggy]

Wow, their lives are... scintillating. :?

Aren't they the ones with the workout minded mom who gets to wear normal clothes? Have we ever figured out why they wear frumpers and head coverings, yet mom gets to wear workout (GASP) capris?

This is what I find strangest about this family. The girls/ladies say things like "This is what Mummy and Daddy wanted for us" but mummy doesn't do whatever it is they are describing. I wonder whether the parents actually have quite different opinions about religion; the father a lot more fundy than the mother. The parents might have an agreement where the mother dresses according to her own beliefs but the girls are being raised to what the father believes.

[Ex 2x2]

I think Mommy only dresses that way for working out. The rest of the time she's in frumpers and head covering.

[Miggy]

I have seen pictures of the mother in long dresses but I can't remember her wearing head covering like the daughters. I am sure at the beach she was wearing something more modern (not Duggar modern, just more modern than the daughters). Maybe I am remembering wrong.

[Ramona]

Ramona, a person who has been raised with no education, no real access to meeting people who can help them, being trained since birth to view the world as evil, being trained since birth that God will rain down judgement on their head if they dare to disobey their parents has no real choice. Sure they can leave, but it would be extremely difficult. This is not just parents disapproving like your parents, this is parents creating a situation where it is almost impossible for their children to leave. Do the 7sisters have access to friends who can come pick them up if they want to leave? Access to any sort of money? I doubt it. They would essentially have to walk out of that house with nothing but the floofy dress they are wearing and keep walking till they hoped they found a stranger to help them.

I was thirteen when I left, so it definitely wasn't easy either. I was young and didn't know wtf I was doing - and no I don't recommend my way of it, really, as I had a few difficult years before I got it sorted, but with a little more resourcefulness it's workable. However - these girls on on the internet, blogging away. (and accessing other blogs) The fact that they have access to the internet means that they have access to *information* .. yeah, their parents may have put filters on but half the seven year olds that I've met can figure out how to get around those. If they even put them on - a lot of parents don't because they don't actually know how.

I don't see them as not having any education - but I'm not as against homeschooling as some folks here are. If they graduated, then they've got their grade twelve and that's the first step toward further education if they decide that they don't agree with their parents beliefs about women and working.

I'm not saying that it would be easy for them - heck no. Walking away from your family, the way of life that you've always know? That's never gonna be easy. But if you've started to want something else - if you're not happy with what you have in front of you - then ask questions, look for information, decide what you want for YOU. (generic you, not directed at you-you)

On the other hand.. I'd like to swap with them, minus the religious aspect. The farm, the goats, the barn swing (I googled it - what fun!), the dresses? Yeah I'll take it. Which one of them wants to trade places?

If they're happy though... I realize there are some fundie families who are out there actively trying to make everyone just like them - working to get Christianity-based laws in place (or keep them in place) and all that - and THAT, I don't like. I'm all for "do your thing" -- but do it with others who already feel the way that you do, and don't try to make the rest of us do it. If you can live and be happy, believe whatever you want, and not try to shove it on everyone else (I don't care if you evangelize - go ahead, share it with me, and then I'll decide if I'm interested - but don't try to make it LAW!) then live it and have fun. Sew, play with goats, wear your head coverings, have church in the backyard (and of course the potluck after - you can never have enough potato salad in your life), do your thing.

Rambly I guess. It's early and I'm not yet done with my tea.

[Ramona]

:oops: I like their dresses, too. They remind me of the ones my mom used to sew for me when I was little.

If I had any sewing skills, I'd make myself some.

Unfortunately, my sewing ability ends at "i think that button will stay now?" :P

[Sola]

I wonder if Daughter Number Five ever found a godly man? We only ever saw First Daughter get married. (Hope she got to take her milk cow with her!)

Ireal? Yes she did. She married a few weeks after her mother died. She married Josh Schmidt and they had a Waller style Josh hearts Ireal website for a while. Last I knew they had two kids, plus the sister with Downs lives with them. I think all the Sabins are married now except for the sister with Downs. When we were on Yuku a couple of the Sabin sons came over to shit on the carpet. By all accounts papa Sabins second marriage to his mail order bride went down like a lead balloon.

[Vex]

Yes, that is what I meant by isolated. Maybe not as isolated as the Maxwells and Arndts, but certainly isolated. They are isolated because they don't have friends or family they have contact with who have opposing views. Nobody to stay with if they decide to reject their parents' indoctrination. That's isolation.

Also, I am not against home schooling. The fact they're home schooled has exactly nothing to do with me saying they don't have the education necessary to do a medicine based course. It is entirely because they do not learn science and do not believe in it. They're not equipped for a secular education.

Razing Ruth went to secular college after a lifetime of Christian homeschooling and she wasn't doing a science-based course, but she had to do a huge amount of study to catch up on maths and science enough to even sit the entrance exam, let alone do the basic 101 science and maths classes. Years of study just to keep her head above water and maths and science were not the majority of the coursework.

For her to catch up enough to sit her MCAT or do premed or even do a first aid certification would be an enormous undertaking.

For what it's worth, I briefly considered applying to change from my science-based BA degree to medical school and sat all the practice tests. The entrance exams (UMAT) in Aus are quite different to the US and don't have any required knowledge in maths or science.

Still, she would not have the people experience to pass the 'understanding people' section (which is reading comprehension based on statements from staff, patients and family - you must be able to demonstrate a strong ability to understand and empathise with their problems and feelings). She would need strong basic maths skills to read and plot graphs and interpret data for non-verbal reasoning and be able to solve problems for logic and problem solving. I know the US tests have far more hard maths and science in them.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would take an extraordinary human being to be in her position, break free, support herself, catch up on her education and do a medical degree of any kind.

[So Many Lies]

I was thirteen when I left, so it definitely wasn't easy either

OH that old chesnut

On the other hand.. I'd like to swap with them, minus the religious aspect. The farm, the goats, the barn swing (I googled it - what fun!), the dresses? Yeah I'll take it. Which one of them wants to trade places?

:?

You can have all those things if you CHOOSE them on your own terms! No swapping necessary!

Sew, play with goats, wear your head coverings, have church in the backyard , do your thing.

Yes, of course. just don't inflict that choice on your progeny because of some belief system you entered into. The daughters should be allowed to grow up and make the choice to have the barn and swing and goat. They can be as childish as they want, provided they have been given the opportunity to explore other options. Which they haven't and won't. Because they cannot.

[Ramona]

OH that old chesnut

:?

You can have all those things if you CHOOSE them on your own terms! No swapping necessary!

Yes, of course. just don't inflict that choice on your progeny because of some belief system you entered into. The daughters should be allowed to grow up and make the choice to have the barn and swing and goat. They can be as childish as they want, provided they have been given the opportunity to explore other options. Which they haven't and won't. Because they cannot.

Okay I'm having a difficult time following some of your replies in this thread. What is an "old chestnut"?

Everyone "inflicts that choice" - meaning, raises their children with their beliefs? - on their families. Some have stronger beliefs than others. Did you read any of what I said about if I want respect for my own beliefs, choices, methods of parenting, etc etc then I feel that I need to give that same respect to others whether we believe in the same deity(s) or not? (or at all)

[So Many Lies]

Okay I'm having a difficult time following some of your replies in this thread. What is an "old chestnut"?

Everyone "inflicts that choice" - meaning, raises their children with their beliefs? - on their families. Some have stronger beliefs than others. Did you read any of what I said about if I want respect for my own beliefs, choices, methods of parenting, etc etc then I feel that I need to give that same respect to others whether we believe in the same deity(s) or not? (or at all)

I read all of it. Every word. And you can find an online thesaurus to look up "old chesnut".

[Ramona]

I read all of it. Every word. And you can find an online thesaurus to look up "old chesnut".

Y'know what, never mind. I don't think you're actually interested in conversation.

[formergothardite]

Okay I'm having a difficult time following some of your replies in this thread. What is an "old chestnut"?

Everyone "inflicts that choice" - meaning, raises their children with their beliefs? - on their families. Some have stronger beliefs than others. Did you read any of what I said about if I want respect for my own beliefs, choices, methods of parenting, etc etc then I feel that I need to give that same respect to others whether we believe in the same deity(s) or not? (or at all)

So you are saying that all parenting methods deserve respect? So we should respect the Duggars and the Pearls and the Botkins and the Phillips?

[Ramona]

So you are saying that all parenting methods deserve respect? So we should respect the Duggars and the Pearls and the Botkins and the Phillips?

In my earlier post that I was referencing, I said "I'm not talking about people who beat their kids" ~ I don't know about plain old spanking in general - personally, I'm against it as a method of discipline and don't use it, but it's legal (with a lot of restrictions) where I live, so the families who do aren't breaking any laws. I have family members who use that as a discipline method.

From what I know of them, the Pearls do indeed encourage *abuse* -- they're the ones who advocate hitting babies with switches or something, right? I don't understand how they haven't been arrested for that unless the laws where they are allow it... anyone who did that here could face criminal charges and lose their kids. No, I don't respect that.

(I don't know who the Botkins or Phillips are)

The Duggars.. well, I know there's debate as to whether they use the abusive methods advocated by the Pearls. Again, if they did it here, there would be consequences. I don't respect that and if I knew that someone was doing that (hitting babies with switches and such) I'd be calling the police and child services.

As for the rest of what they do though, in following their beliefs? Homeschooling, dresses only, no tv, no dancing/rock music, all that... I might not AGREE with them (I don't) but - that comes back to "if I want the freedom to practice my own beliefs" ... then I have to allow others the freedom to practice theirs...... I do wish that they would practice without trying to force it on the rest of the world - evangelizing is fine (go ahead, try to convince others if you want), but trying to have laws passed (or kept) that are based on YOUR faith, and only YOUR faith? That I don't agree with. (Nor do I agree with missionary trips where they go and try to take away the beliefs of tribal societies and whatever) ....

I guess it's a line, a grey fuzzy line really. I don't know, I'm not sure how I feel about some things.... still working some of that out. I spent a few years as a "fundie" more or less, although I didn't really believe it all (I wanted to, I tried to, I just couldn't) and I'm trying to find the right balance..

I don't hold with anyone switching babies though, hell no. :(