The Seven Sisters stand outside and freeze.

[So Many Lies]

How do you know they ever had blanket training or beating in their household? Just because some fundies do that, doesn't mean they all do. I'm all for snark, but accusing people of physical abuse when there's no evidence for it crosses the line in my eyes.

Regarding their happiness, I don't think it's fake. They wouldn't be able to keep it up if it was. In fact, of all the SAHD fundies we follow on FJ, I think the Seven Sisters are the ones who seem the most genuinely happy with life - unlike some I could mention (I'm looking at you, Sarah Maxwell!). It's clear from Seven Sisters blog that their household has a lot of love in it, that they have a strong bond and that they enjoy their daily activities and interactions with friends/ family. While I've never been fundie at all, I do know what it's like to be really close to your sisters and for all of you to have the same sense of humour, and it's a wonderful thing. I can completely 'get' how something like a simple trip to Starbucks can be really fun, when all of you are together without anyone else in the group.

They could also be lucky enough to share a naturally cheerful personality, which I'm convinced is at least partly genetic (as with many personality traits).

You are right. Quiverful of snark is a place where only facts abound, no opinion or conjecture! :lol:

Wow I'm so glad that your experiences with your own sisters speak for everyone.

I am also glad that I have you to set me straight on these matters. Phew. I might have said something stupid otherwise. Like, for example, It's totally fine to hobble your daughters to keep them in your realm. It's great and normal and perfectly awesome that they are fine with not travelling as they would choose to as they can travel in the afterlife. It's normal to have girls in their mid-twenties share beds and sing tra la la la all day long, speculating about marriage when they are all SAHD. Yup. Totally doesn't smack of Gothard and their ilk. And Gothard and the Duggars don't blanket train. Right.

[formergothardite]

There are more ways to abuse children than just blanket training and Pearl type spanking. Their parents might not have physically abused them, but they sure as hell did some sort of emotional abuse to create this level of childishness in all of their adult children. Raising one adult who never wants to grow up and prances around like a 12 year old is one thing but having three adults with no real goals in life and who live is a perpetual state of childhood, something is off.

[Rosie]

I would like for them to include in their notes about what the future holds for them, details about what they are doing now, and what plans they are making, to make that future happen.

[formergothardite]

I highly doubt they are doing anything but sitting and waiting for daddy to find them a husband.

[Triplet3]

You are right. Quiverful of snark is a place where only facts abound, no opinion or conjecture! :lol:

Maybe it didn't come across properly, but your comment didn't seem like conjecture. I thought you were thinking that they had mentioned blanket training or beating on their blog, or that their mother had mentioned it on hers, or something similar.

Wow I'm so glad that your experiences with your own sisters speak for everyone.

I didn't claim that it speaks for everyone, I was just using it as an example of how it's possible that the Seven Sisters' closeness and enjoyment of each others' company could actually be genuine.

I am also glad that I have you to set me straight on these matters. Phew. I might have said something stupid otherwise. Like, for example, It's totally fine to hobble your daughters to keep them in your realm. It's great and normal and perfectly awesome that they are fine with not travelling as they would choose to as they can travel in the afterlife. It's normal to have girls in their mid-twenties share beds and sing tra la la la all day long, speculating about marriage when they are all SAHD. Yup. Totally doesn't smack of Gothard and their ilk. And Gothard and the Duggars don't blanket train. Right.

And there was me thinking that FJ is a place for sharing views! My view that the Seven Sisters' cheerfulness is genuine is as valid as is your view that it's entirely faked as a calculated attempt to lead people to Gothardism. Considering they've never known any different, that they have each other and a sense of humour, that they enjoy the stuff they do (including travel as a family) and that their lives appear to be fuller than those of many fundie SAHDs, I don't see why they couldn't be reasonably happy. It's pretty easy to tell from SAHDs' blogs when they're forcing a sense of happiness, and I don't get that vibe from the Seven Sisters. Just because I'd hate being fundamentalist doesn't mean that they must do too.

Also, I've never claimed that they don't follow Gothard at all. In fact one of them posted once about how she was doing a particular Gothard course. However, it doesn't say on their blog whether or not their family follows Gothard fully. They've never mentioned it when they're asked about their beliefs, which church they go to etc., and they don't usually seem to hold back on talking about that sort of thing. They've never mentioned anything about discipline on their blog, either.

Edited to sort out quotes

[JenniferJuniper]

And there was me thinking that FJ is a place for sharing views! My view that the Seven Sisters' cheerfulness is genuine is as valid as is your view that it's entirely faked as a calculated attempt to lead people to Gothardism. Considering they've never known any different, that they have each other and a sense of humour, that they enjoy the stuff they do (including travel as a family) and that their lives appear to be fuller than those of many fundie SAHDs, I don't see why they couldn't be reasonably happy. It's pretty easy to tell from SAHDs' blogs when they're forcing a sense of happiness, and I don't get that vibe from the Seven Sisters. Just because I'd hate being fundamentalist doesn't mean that they must do too.

The Sisters love their fundamentalist lives, that's quite clear.

It's just as clear from their behavior that they've been and continue to be emotionally and psychologically abused. Some parents just do an extraordinarily good job brainwashing their kids into believing their lifestyle is a superior one and in training them to be consistently cheerful. See the Arndts for another example of this. Every one of their 10 adult sons seems genuinely happy, playful, consistently upbeat, and behaviorally no more than 11 or 12 years old.

You can argue "but hey, they're happy, so what's the harm?" The harm is in the damaged futures. Parents get old and feeble and eventually die. Where does the financial support come from then? If the Sisters are married off by their parents to men they don't know, they run a high risk of ending up with incompatible - possibly abusive - spouses. What do they do then? Several of the Arndt boys are in their 30's and have never dated, never mind kissed, any girls, and it will probably be the same for all of the rest of the sons. They've never been to college or trade school so their career choices are limited to what their father has decided is acceptable. Where will this leave them in 10 or 15 years, when the court reporting is no longer a viable occupation and laptops have officially gone the way of the telegraph?

On the surface it all may look cute and harmless, but real harm is being done and it's just a matter of time before things fall apart.

[Ex 2x2]

The parallel to the Arndts is stunning. These 2 families have both somehow created infantile adults.

I don't think it's ALL fake with the 7 sisters. I don't even think it's all weird. Sure, it's great that they can have fun together and laugh at Starbucks. Lots of siblings laugh together. My question was what would you have to talk and laugh about for HOURS when you are with these people 24/7?

Some of it is just not normal. They get excited when Santa comes on the firetruck every Christmas and hands out candy. Now, I could see the adult ones being excited for the younger ones, but no. They are excited for themselves. At Christmas, they decorate their bedrooms and it's a big surprise. The seating arrangement thing. I guess it's good that they can be happy since this is what their life is like, but it's just not normal.

How old is the oldest? She looks close to 30.

[HereticHick]

Surely the middle-aged girls look at their older sisters--the ones over 25--and wonder why Daddy hasn't found them a husband yet. And worry if they have to "wait their turn" to get married off--possibly forever.

[So Many Lies]

By the way triplet3 I was voicing my.opinion. I am not filing a police report! No need to get all hand slappy. I can see they aren't on physically discipled these days. No need. All the hard work is done when they are babies/younger children. I despise the methods espoused by Gothard. That's my view. I also think these blogs do function like advertising for that crowd. Just so you can deal with the fact I disagree with you I will.state it one more time: I am not living in their house so I cannot ever know for

100% sure. But then, neither can you. And something about them is definately not fine even if they are happy or seem happy.

[Mama Mia]

I understand that of course education and post-secondary training is important and greatly enhances job prospects - but I think there is a tendency here to act like EVERYONE has some sort of advanced training except for these people.

In reality only about 25% of U.S. adults over the age of 25 have a college degree. Even if you throw in another 25% of so who have a two year or vocational degree - half of adults don't have any official post secondary degree. They tend to make much less, but the majority aren't jobless and starving. I don't think the many people who work at the supermarket or own a small business or are landscapers or seamstresses or any of a number of other occupations that don't require advanced training are all hopeless and miserable.

I'm curious about the court reporting comment. I have a friend who is studying in a very competitive, time consuming program to become a court reporter. She already has a University degree but wasn't finding employment without specific marketable skills. She chose that field because it actually pays well and has a decent growth outlook.

[JenniferJuniper]

I'm curious about the court reporting comment. I have a friend who is studying in a very competitive, time consuming program to become a court reporter. She already has a University degree but wasn't finding employment without specific marketable skills. She chose that field because it actually pays well and has a decent growth outlook.

The court reporting schools claim the prospects are good and you'll find hundreds of webpages confirming it, but in reality courts are beginning to migrate to much less expensive digital court reporting. See here:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... _as_n.html

and here:

http://www.naplesreporting.com/digital-court-reporting/

Legal transcription is not stenography, and it can be outsourced anywhere. Once it fully catches on, the need for actual stenographers at hearings, depositions and trials should drop off significantly.

[Triplet3]

It's just as clear from their behavior that they've been and continue to be emotionally and psychologically abused. Some parents just do an extraordinarily good job brainwashing their kids into believing their lifestyle is a superior one and in training them to be consistently cheerful. See the Arndts for another example of this. Every one of their 10 adult sons seems genuinely happy, playful, consistently upbeat, and behaviorally no more than 11 or 12 years old.

You can argue "but hey, they're happy, so what's the harm?" The harm is in the damaged futures. Parents get old and feeble and eventually die. Where does the financial support come from then? If the Sisters are married off by their parents to men they don't know, they run a high risk of ending up with incompatible - possibly abusive - spouses. What do they do then? Several of the Arndt boys are in their 30's and have never dated, never mind kissed, any girls, and it will probably be the same for all of the rest of the sons. They've never been to college or trade school so their career choices are limited to what their father has decided is acceptable. Where will this leave them in 10 or 15 years, when the court reporting is no longer a viable occupation and laptops have officially gone the way of the telegraph?

On the surface it all may look cute and harmless, but real harm is being done and it's just a matter of time before things fall apart.

I agree with you 100% about the Arndts, but I don't think the Seven Sisters are as bad off as them. While the older ones are a bit immature, the sisters regularly interact with people outside the family, have proper friends, and are pretty skilled at a range of things (sewing, cooking, canning, playing musical instruments/singing, looking after livestock etc.) They definitely have some practical skills that could come in useful if they ever had to earn proper money. For some reason I find the Arndts much more damaged-seeming than the Seven Sisters. Probably partly because unlike the sisters, they have an obsession with abortion, have a homechurch that no-one outside the family can attend, and some of them are over 30.

Incidentally, does anyone else here think that the simple fact that they're all the same sex (bar the little brothers on the end), and the sense of group that that encourages, might partly explain why they are the way they are? Particularly as they have the same sense of humour and many shared interests. I find it hard to explain why this might have something to do with it, though, and it's only a hunch based on my experiences as a triplet, so I could be wrong. I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

[Triplet3]

My question was what would you have to talk and laugh about for HOURS when you are with these people 24/7?

Interaction with the siblings that form your 'group' is different in the household situation, when you have parents and other siblings there as well, and you're all doing varied daily activities either singly or in groups of probably no more than 2 or 3 at a time. It's not the same as when all your 'group' is out together as a whole with no-one else there. I have experience of that as just a triplet, so I imagine the effect must be stronger when the 'group' consists of seven people.

How old is the oldest? She looks close to 30.

25 or 26.

[Mama Mia]

The court reporting schools claim the prospects are good and you'll find hundreds of webpages confirming it, but in reality courts are beginning to migrate to much less expensive digital court reporting. See here:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/0 ... _as_n.html

and here:

http://www.naplesreporting.com/digital-court-reporting/

Legal transcription is not stenography, and it can be outsourced anywhere. Once it fully catches on, the need for actual stenographers at hearings, depositions and trials should drop off significantly.

Interesting. I was going off the official labor board statistics which show it as having a 14% growth rate, which isn't fantastic- but on the good end of average.

Really though, couldn't you say the same about virtually any field that doesn't require a physical body to perform in this day and age ? With the advances in technology there seems to be little that can't be outsourced.

[JenniferJuniper]

Interesting. I was going off the official labor board statistics which show it as having a 14% growth rate, which isn't fantastic- but on the good end of average.

Really though, couldn't you say the same about virtually any field that doesn't require a physical body to perform in this day and age ? With the advances in technology there seems to be little that can't be outsourced.

Yes, automation will always win out in the end. However, as you pointed out, the court reporting training is very difficult, and it can be expensive. As for the 14% growth, I would guess that isn't accounting for advances in technology and/or the fact that more and more jurisdictions are allowing tapings instead of on-site stenographers. Or maybe it's a short term projection only. Long term, they'll almost certainly be used less and less frequently. Daddy Arndt should probably consider some other lines of work for his younger boys.

[VVV]

I dunno, to be fair to them, the older girls do seem pretty accomplished at what they do. Their sewing skills are great so far as I can tell, they can cook well (judging by pictures), they're decent musicians (I saw a youtube video of one of them playing the violin to a high standard, several of them are in a secular regional youth orchestra and one of them teaches music), and they seem to have the social skills to relate to commenters on their blog. It's clear from their blog that they quite often have friends to stay, and see other friends pretty regularly. I think if their parents did pass away then the older girls could earn a decent amount of money through a combination of their etsy clothes/craft shop and maybe by selling farm produce, cakes etc?

If that's the video of Leah (I think) playing a jig, it's impossible to say whether it's to a high standard or not. I mean, she plays it pretty well, though she has some quirks in her left hand technique that would need to be ironed out if she really got serious, but that kind of music is very easy to play. I give it to my beginner students.

I doubt that their musical skills extend much beyond the reasonably good amateur, and the thought of people with their limited training actually teaching children how to play gives me hives.

[Triplet3]

If that's the video of Leah (I think) playing a jig, it's impossible to say whether it's to a high standard or not. I mean, she plays it pretty well, though she has some quirks in her left hand technique that would need to be ironed out if she really got serious, but that kind of music is very easy to play. I give it to my beginner students.

But is it easy to play well? I used to play stuff a bit like that on the cello when I was a beginner, but not fluently or with proper vibrato and feeling as I could now (or could if I practiced...) I'm not a music teacher though, and didn't spot her left hand technique.

I doubt that their musical skills extend much beyond the reasonably good amateur, and the thought of people with their limited training actually teaching children how to play gives me hives.

True, but fundies/fundie lites/rural people without access to highly skilled professionals probably wouldn't care or would just suck it up! So the sisters would still have some sort of customer base, providing they live in a fundie/rural area.

[VVV]

But is it easy to play well? I used to play stuff a bit like that on the cello when I was a beginner, but not fluently or with proper vibrato and feeling as I could now (or could if I practiced...) I'm not a music teacher though, and didn't spot her left hand technique.

True, but fundies/fundie lites/rural people without access to highly skilled professionals probably wouldn't care or would just suck it up! So the sisters would still have some sort of customer base, providing they live in a fundie/rural area.

I wouldn't say it is easy to play well but any competent intermediate player could sound pretty good on that type of music if they practiced. She's not bad. I'm just saying it's impossible to determine how good she is.

I'm sure there is a customer base for their music lessons. The thought just gives me hives, that's all. I've gotten students who started out with incompetent or at best untrained teachers, and the repair job often required is tedious, frustrating, and not always successful. It's so important to get a good start on the violin and I hate to think about potentially talented young students being stunted at the very beginning because they are being taught by someone who is not, to put it mildly, an expert. This isn't to say that she is necessarily damaging her students (if she is teaching), but the odds are pretty high that they're not getting the best instruction.

It absolutely drives me crazy when people think that they are qualified to teach violin, or piano, or voice, just because they have achieved a level of reasonable competence themselves. There's so much more to it.

[So Many Lies]

I find it hard to explain why this might have something to do with it, though, and it's only a hunch based on my experiences as a triplet, so I could be wrong. I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

The oldest and the youngest out of the seven have many years in between them. If they are all cloistered together and the older girls (women!)are not allowed many opportunities for growth then it is stifling their development. Cameraderie doesn't make up for that.

As far as I know triplets are the same age so it doesn't really apply. And I assume you were allowed out of the community every once in while.

[Triplet3]

The oldest and the youngest out of the seven have many years in between them. If they are all cloistered together and the older girls (women!)are not allowed many opportunities for growth then it is stifling their development. Cameraderie doesn't make up for that.

As far as I know triplets are the same age so it doesn't really apply. And I assume you were allowed out of the community every once in while.

[browngrl]

I think the girls would have a bad time of it if their parents died. Compounded with the sadness from being orphaned would be the stress of having to grow up very fast. However, they do have some assets that might help them succeed. They have each other for support. They can cook/clean/sew/do computer basics and they don't seem to shy away from hard work. They might have to do a series of low paying but very hard work sorts of jobs and they might find themselves living hand to mouth for some time but it could be done. I do think that at least one of the girls would go off the deep end and get into trouble but I think that at least some of the girls would be able to survive and perhaps even thrive.

Whether or not their parents left them any kind of safety net might be the deciding factor in the whole situation. Having a paid off house to live in + a life insurance policy would make a world of difference. Beyond being debt free - I don't see fundies doing a lot of estate planning. They fundies say they trust God to provide but really I think they can't deal with the financial realities.

[darareaksmey]

I...just can't with this family anymore. Why do we call them "girls"? At least 5 of them are not "girls." They are grown women acting like first-graders at recess. The fact that we automatically refer to them as "girls" speaks volumes about what their problem is. I'm not saying they have to turn goth or get piercings or spend their evenings on the stripper people at the local saloon. But those over, say, 18 need to grow up, literally. It is simply not normal to think you need your dad's protection once you are old enough to go out and get a job. Yes, I said it. It's abnormal. They should WANT to leave home, or at least to work outside the home and make money toward the day when they can leave home, whether it's on their own or to go off with someone they choose to spend their life with.

edited because of omitted word