The Seven Sisters stand outside and freeze.

[formergothardite]

Did anyone say that they shouldn't have freedom to practice all their fucked up beliefs?

You really think that we should respect the non-hitting Gothard methods of raising kids? I don't respect them at all and I think it is damaging to children to raise them with no education, a fear of the world and an fear(even as unmarried adults) of damnation and suffering if they do anything that the parents don't agree with. Abuse doesn't just have to be hitting babies(but the Duggars do that too).

[jaynie]

Did anyone say that they shouldn't have freedom to practice all their fucked up beliefs?

You really think that we should respect the non-hitting Gothard methods of raising kids? I don't respect them at all and I think it is damaging to children to raise them with no education, a fear of the world and an fear(even as unmarried adults) of damnation and suffering if they do anything that the parents don't agree with. Abuse doesn't just have to be hitting babies(but the Duggars do that too).

Exactly. Ramona, you might want to do a little research on emotional and (especially) spiritual abuse. Both can be incredibly damaging -- in some cases even more damaging than physical abuse, because it can be incredibly hard to get over.

As for me, I believe everyone should have the right to practice their beliefs, but they should not have the right to psychologically cripple their (adult!) children by under-educating them, overprotecting them, isolating them, sending them to indoctrination camps or ex-gay therapy, forcing them to act as parents to younger siblings for years, pushing them into marrying against their will (with the threat of hell hanging over them if they refuse), any of it. None of those things involve hitting, but they still leave scars.

Your children are not your property. And there is an enormous difference between going to church on Sundays & saying grace before meals, and demanding that every single aspect of your children's lives conform to your particular, exceptionally strict, exceptionally restrictive interpretation of your particular religion, even when they're adults, unless they're happy to be shunned.

[Ramona]

Did anyone say that they shouldn't have freedom to practice all their fucked up beliefs?

You really think that we should respect the non-hitting Gothard methods of raising kids? I don't respect them at all and I think it is damaging to children to raise them with no education, a fear of the world and an fear(even as unmarried adults) of damnation and suffering if they do anything that the parents don't agree with. Abuse doesn't just have to be hitting babies(but the Duggars do that too).

I think I need to clarify that there is a difference between respecting the methods of [whatever] and respecting the RIGHT of those folks to do those things. I don't LIKE a lot of things that people do - but that doesn't mean that I can take away their right to do it. Know what I mean?

An example: I hate guns. I mean HATE HATE HATE guns. So, does that mean that I have the right to insist that nobody have any? Nobody gets to hunt or whatever, because *I* disagree with that. Nope, I don't get to do this - I have to respect their right to have them, as they are (currently) legal and in some places guaranteed by constitutional stuff.

If you truly believe in the Abrahamic God and that you need to be saved by Jesus and (fill in all the rest) then it only follows that you're going to live as such, and raise your family as such, and who am I to tell you that you're wrong or that you can't? I certainly can't prove you wrong. (although I kinda hope that you are, because I tried - I really, really TRIED to believe it, and I can't, and I'm still kinda scared that you'll turn out to be right and I'll be punished for my lack of ability to convince myself despite several years of effort)

I don't see them as not having any education though.. but I'm not a fan of the pound-in-the-data, assembly line public system anyway.

I don't know, where are the lines supposed to be and who gets to draw them? I don't feel like it's my place to do it.

[johnhugh]

The sisters all went to Starbucks for Valentines day and wrote down what their lives would be like in ten years time.

Of course they will be married with loads of blessings...

sevenfarmgirlsisters.com/a-valentines-outing/

[formergothardite]

I don't want to take away their rights either, despite the fact that I'm pretty sure the 7 sisters would have no issues taking away my rights or the rights of people who are gay. But I don't have to respect their belief system(and they don't have to respect mine) and I can talk about why I think it is wrong and harmful to raise children like their parents did(and they can do the same to me).

I think the 7sisters would have a very hard time if they tried to go to college, get a job or even live on their own. And their parents did this to them. Their parents have kept them in a perpetual state of childhood, never allowing them any real adult responsibilities and training them since they were young to not question their parents or to want to be an adult. They have used the fear of god and the world to keep their children from ever growing up. This isn't just being a Christian(which I have no problem with)this is going to the extreme and is more on the line of emotional and spiritual abuse.

As for their education, I'm not a fan of that sort of education either, but almost all the fundie homeschoolers I know who didn't believe women should work outside the home or go to college never bothered with much teaching when it came to the highschool years. They considered sewing and homemaking good enough, skills which the 7sisters are good at, but won't take you that far if you have to enter the workforce or go to college.

[ILoveJellybeans]

If you truly believe in the Abrahamic God and that you need to be saved by Jesus and (fill in all the rest) then it only follows that you're going to live as such, and raise your family as such, and who am I to tell you that you're wrong or that you can't? I certainly can't prove you wrong. (although I kinda hope that you are, because I tried - I really, really TRIED to believe it, and I can't, and I'm still kinda scared that you'll turn out to be right and I'll be punished for my lack of ability to convince myself despite several years of effort)

I don't see them as not having any education though.. but I'm not a fan of the pound-in-the-data, assembly line public system anyway.

I don't know, where are the lines supposed to be and who gets to draw them? I don't feel like it's my place to do it.

I think theres a difference between raising your child in a Christian home and spiritually abusing them. Most average Christian parents are doing it right.

I think its fine to take your child to church, tell them Bible stories, or even encourage them to keep some religious rules (like a Muslim parent telling their kids that God doesnt want them to eat pork), or having rules about what clothing they want their children to wear (I am an atheist, and there are certain kinds of clothing I certainly wouldnt want any future child of mine wearing).

I dont have a problem with large families either, as long as the kids are well looked after and their parents can do the majority of childcare, and that they have enough money to give their kids decent living conditions-a home big enough to comfortably fit the family in, which has electricity, running water, that protects them from bad weather and is safe for a child to live in, and that each child has enough food, a real bed, clothes and toys.

I think some things the fundies do are wrong though, like the brainwashing camps (run by someone who gropes teen girls), ex gay therapy, hitting the kids, teaching kids that God is something to be afraid of who will send you to Hell for everything and the control over adult children. I think that once a kid reaches 18, the rules should be relaxed, even if they are still living at home. Also first time unquestioning obedience is not a good thing, as its easier to abuse them.

Theres nothing wrong with homeschooling, but there are fundies who arent giving their kids a good education. This is something you can see from the writing by some of these fundie SAHD's. Sure, if it was just one or two, you could assume maybe they have learning disabilities or a theres a problem with the parents and not the curriculum (like if there were kids in public school who arent doing as well as theyre supposed to be doing), but most of them have poor writing skills and seem delayed compared to others their age. I have seen examples of the ATI curriculum, and it is seriously lacking (and theres random bits like take your kids to a public place and teach them to judge people). Its common amongst survivors of spiritual abuse to have to relearn a lot of things they should have learned in school as the homeschooling is so poor).

[AnnC]

Ireal? Yes she did. She married a few weeks after her mother died. She married Josh Schmidt and they had a Waller style Josh hearts Ireal website for a while. Last I knew they had two kids, plus the sister with Downs lives with them. I think all the Sabins are married now except for the sister with Downs. When we were on Yuku a couple of the Sabin sons came over to shit on the carpet. By all accounts papa Sabins second marriage to his mail order bride went down like a lead balloon.

Does anyone have the URL for these blogs? I am trying to catch up on this part ...

EDIT:

The most recent update from FJ on YUKU:

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/1914/L ... SJzVB2r-Sp

I always wondering how those folks are doing. After seeing all that work, it makes you wonder how their lives are going.

[yewchapel]

Ramona, you can bring up your kids to believe in the Abrahamic God and Jesus and not fuck them up like the 7 Sisters. Their lives are far from the standard Christian upbringing (most Christians worldwide are Roman Catholics, for a start).

[So Many Lies]

Ramona, how was I not engagaing in conversation with you? Because I don't engage in handholding? Because I disagree with you? For the record I find it odd that you would escape fron a fundie family at thirteen but then state you would happily swap with one of the seven sisters. And you find me hard to follow.

[Ramona]

For the record I find it odd that you would escape fron a fundie family at thirteen but then state you would happily swap with one of the seven sisters.

No no - I didn't leave a fundie family at thirteen, sorry if something I said made it sound like that somewhere. Heck, total opposite, my parents were atheists. I left home at thirteen, yes. I lived as a fundie for several years as an adult. I have more to read but food to cook too, just wanted to clarify that right off.

[So Many Lies]

^ ok, cool.

[razingruth]

No no - I didn't leave a fundie family at thirteen, sorry if something I said made it sound like that somewhere. Heck, total opposite, my parents were atheists. I left home at thirteen, yes. I lived as a fundie for several years as an adult. I have more to read but food to cook too, just wanted to clarify that right off.

Ramona, I read your original statement to mean that you left a fundy family at 13, also. I think it was the context in which you said it that led some to believe that was the case.

[Ramona]

Ramona, I read your original statement to mean that you left a fundy family at 13, also. I think it was the context in which you said it that led some to believe that was the case.

Sorry about that - I went back and looked and I see how it looked that way. Poor wording on my part, along with assuming people had seen a few other things in other posts. I didn't mean to give the wrong impression!

[freejugar]

I'm surprised they actually think they'll be married in 10 years, judging by the lives of their oldest sisters

[terranova]

I'm surprised they actually think they'll be married in 10 years, judging by the lives of their oldest sisters

That was my thought too.

[HereticHick]

I was totally depressed by the 7 Sisters Valentines Day post. There is no evidence that daddy is looking for matches for them--and they seem to rarely do anything that would expose them to potential mates. Does Dad really want 7 spinster daughters on his hands forever??

Do they think that godly men are delivered by the stork???

I really want to march up to some of these fundy headships (including STEVE MAXWELL and JIM BOB and Dr. PAYNE) and say, look--

1. You've told your daughters that their only purpose in life is to quickly marry and produce as many little blessings as possible, and you won't equip them to do anything else.

2. You won't let your daughters seek out mates, nor will you let any other family member (like mom or aunties) play matchmaker.

3. YOU ARE FAILING IN YOUR SELF-APPOINTED RESPONSIBILITY TO FIND YOUR DAUGHTER A HUSBAND.

4. Either --go sit in the prayer closet, ask forgiveness for your slothfulness, and go round up some husbands. Or-- acknowlege your system isn't working, and adjust accordingly.

[Ex 2x2]

What in the world could they have talked about for hours? They see each other all day everyday. And what could've been that funny? Don't get me wrong, it's good that they are happy, but man. They are really really happy.

[formergothardite]

What in the world could they have talked about for hours? They see each other all day everyday. And what could've been that funny? Don't get me wrong, it's good that they are happy, but man. They are really really happy.

I do have to wonder if they are really that happy or if it is all a show for the blog.

[Mama Mia]

I thought some of the snips from their Valentine's post were interesting. It sounded like one of them was expecting to be married with lots of kids - but another sister posted that one would be 30 in 10 years with one child and one on the way - another was going to be 22 and working as an artist - one would be on a mission trip to China.

I know those were just a few of the little blurbs they wrote on each others - but it was interesting that they didn't all expect to be married with multiple children in 10 years time.

[LucySnowe]

I like that they were clearly having fun and enjoying their time together - no frozen posed dead-behind-the-eyes smiles here! - but those notes sound as though they might have been written ten years ago, by young teens at a slumber party.

And daddy gives them flowers on Valentine's Day? What?? Ugh.

[Ex 2x2]

I do have to wonder if they are really that happy or if it is all a show for the blog.

True. It seems sincere but it's hard to know. If they are that happy, it makes me wonder if they are a little simple, for lack of a better word. I'm just remembering what a hoot they had over the seating arrangement for a trip. It's kind of hard to believe that many people would all have the same laugh-at-everything personality. Wouldn't you think one or two of them might be more somber by nature? Idk.

[salex]

True. It seems sincere but it's hard to know. If they are that happy, it makes me wonder if they are a little simple, for lack of a better word. I'm just remembering what a hoot they had over the seating arrangement for a trip. It's kind of hard to believe that many people would all have the same laugh-at-everything personality. Wouldn't you think one or two of them might be more somber by nature? Idk.

[So Many Lies]

^^ It's all a big blog advertisement for how great all this blanket training, beating and brainwashing turns out. Even if one did have a dark side you wouldn't see it on the blog.

[Triplet3]

^^ It's all a big blog advertisement for how great all this blanket training, beating and brainwashing turns out. Even if one did have a dark side you wouldn't see it on the blog.

How do you know they ever had blanket training or beating in their household? Just because some fundies do that, doesn't mean they all do. I'm all for snark, but accusing people of physical abuse when there's no evidence for it crosses the line in my eyes.

Regarding their happiness, I don't think it's fake. They wouldn't be able to keep it up if it was. In fact, of all the SAHD fundies we follow on FJ, I think the Seven Sisters are the ones who seem the most genuinely happy with life - unlike some I could mention (I'm looking at you, Sarah Maxwell!). It's clear from Seven Sisters blog that their household has a lot of love in it, that they have a strong bond and that they enjoy their daily activities and interactions with friends/ family. While I've never been fundie at all, I do know what it's like to be really close to your sisters and for all of you to have the same sense of humour, and it's a wonderful thing. I can completely 'get' how something like a simple trip to Starbucks can be really fun, when all of you are together without anyone else in the group.

They could also be lucky enough to share a naturally cheerful personality, which I'm convinced is at least partly genetic (as with many personality traits).

[formergothardite]

The fact that they have that many kids and not one of them is unhappy or wanting to go live a different life is hard for me to believe. I have known hell of a lot of large fundie families and there is always at least one kid that behind all the public show of happiness is miserable.