Kidist and race

[fakepigtails73]

This. I'll be honest here, I'm a Canadian who is way more into American politics than Canadian. Not only does American politics have more importance in the world it also tends to be more interesting IMHO.

i'm a political science student - outside of mandatory Canadian politics classes (1 lower level, 1 upper level) and bare minimums of paying attention to the news so that I know the basics of what's going on I pretty much ignore Canadian politics. However, I can (and do) talk my classmates ears off about American politics.

While kidist is disturbing in many ways, I don't think her interest in American politics is weird or problematic.

I hear ya on the American politics are more interesting than Canadian pol.! In fact I consider myself a bit of a political junkie as well, and I follow on a regular basis 3 places' political powerplays: my own province's, France, and the USA. I feel a big disconnect with what happens in Ottawa. I think that there is way too much power invested in the PMO, and that regardless of it's the Tories or the Liberals in power. But I disgress...

Nothing wrong in being a non-American interested in US politics, but I feel that K is overinvested in what happens in Washington. She likely feels helpless since she cannot vote there, which likely doesn't help her mental stability. She's probably one of those people that think that Canada should become the 51st state, or if not, maybe she's a member of "Canadian Friends of George W Bush" (yes, this group existed during the run-up to the Iraq war.)

[super skeptic]

Kidist considers herself white (or Caucasian), since her ancestry is Amhara.

amnation.com/vfr/archives/015068.html

I think this is a wrong interpretation. "Caucasoid", which perhaps the Amhara people consider themselves, does not have the same meaning of what we usually mean when we say "Caucasian" (largely of European ancestry). Many Arab people and Northern Africans are Caucasoid, for example, and yet Kidist doesn't consider them white. Many mestizo Hispanics are more "Caucasian" in terms of European ancestry, the sense in which we usually think of "Caucasian," than Kidist does.

So I think that what Kidist means by it is "I'm not black!" but not necessarily "I'm white!". I think she is cognizant of her race and is sadly very angered by it, which perhaps fuel all the hatred she spews.

[cindyluvs24]

US politics influence the world in such a big way compared to , say, Canadian or German politics, so it's normal to be interested in American political stuff even if you don't live in the US. I love following your country's political shenanigans, but K seems a bit too over- invested for a non-American. It is strange; she likely spent last election night crying because Mittens lost.

Sorry for my 2 posts in a row.

i was in Toronto several years ago and i was amazed after watching the news that it led with the American presidential primaries. i have no idea who's in charge in Ottawa. (looks down sheepishly)

[gezykah]

I was intrigued. I have two nieces, Small and Smaller. Their mum was half black and half white and their dad is white.

Small looks like a white person with African features. Smaller looks like her mum. You look at her and see "mixed race".

Is one black and one white? Are they both black? Are neither of them?

S&S have started to get confused about it themselves. So I am now confused, too, about this issue. They've started to notice racial differences and ask "are we black, are we white?" I dunno, they could be either. No-one would look at Small and say instantly "She's black." She's as pasty as I am, but she looks different than me in her face. Smaller would be mistaken for a wee Pakistani girl. Is one black and one not? They have the same mum and dad.

I come from a very mixed background but the short version is mostly Black and Irish. I kind of like the way my parents dealt this this issue. They basically laid out the facts of where various ancestors came from, noted most people would look at me and focus on the black part of my heritage, but in terms of how I identified myself that was left up to me. As I got older I would joke with them that people think I'm everything except black. I've always been of the opinion that if it mattered it would be obvious. While the social constructs of race still have quite a bit of power if they had any intrinsic value there wouldn't be so many of us whose backgrounds aren't clear.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Thanks! I find that really helpful, and I'm going for the book suggestions.

I didn't quite know what to say to them. I understand race as a political construct, and the necessity for them to define their race in their own ways, and the intersection between race and class structures, but I don't know how to say that to kids.

I love "biracial" as well. That might be a small and simple way to explain it to them so they can feel confident in who they are. They maybe don't have to worry if they are black, white, mixed or who are ya.

This is why I haven't yet left FJ. You get really good insights and suggestions from people.

I am still here too, JFC. I don't post too often anymore. But with all the latest nonsense, I have thought of you. I enjoy your insght and intelligence. I do not want to lose touch.

[thoughtful]

I think this is a wrong interpretation. "Caucasoid", which perhaps the Amhara people consider themselves, does not have the same meaning of what we usually mean when we say "Caucasian" (largely of European ancestry). Many Arab people and Northern Africans are Caucasoid, for example, and yet Kidist doesn't consider them white. Many mestizo Hispanics are more "Caucasian" in terms of European ancestry, the sense in which we usually think of "Caucasian," than Kidist does.

So I think that what Kidist means by it is "I'm not black!" but not necessarily "I'm white!". I think she is cognizant of her race and is sadly very angered by it, which perhaps fuel all the hatred she spews.

Thanks, super skeptic -- sorry my description was too simplistic.

I'm still not sure she is angered by her race, though - I think she genuinely considers herself above, better than, non-white people from other groups.

[RachelB]

Thanks! I find that really helpful, and I'm going for the book suggestions.

I didn't quite know what to say to them. I understand race as a political construct, and the necessity for them to define their race in their own ways, and the intersection between race and class structures, but I don't know how to say that to kids.

I love "biracial" as well. That might be a small and simple way to explain it to them so they can feel confident in who they are. They maybe don't have to worry if they are black, white, mixed or who are ya.

This is why I haven't yet left FJ. You get really good insights and suggestions from people.

I heard a speaker once say, "Race is a social construct, but the cab drivers who do not stop for me don't realize that," which has stayed with me. I take his point to mean that, even though race is a social category rather than a biological one, it has real effects on how people treat each other-- most of us are born into a society that's still struggling to unlearn racism.

[LostSamurai]

I can't stand this lunatic's rantings but I find it amusing in an ironic way that she goes on about how much she basically hates anyone not white but yet she's African Canadian herself... :lol:

[samurai_sarah]

I heard a speaker once say, "Race is a social construct, but the cab drivers who do not stop for me don't realize that," which has stayed with me. I take his point to mean that, even though race is a social category rather than a biological one, it has real effects on how people treat each other-- most of us are born into a society that's still struggling to unlearn racism.

QFT

[TheSassyOne]

QFT

Seconds this!

JFC, yes many call it Ebonics also. Some believe it's simply incorrect grammar; others believe it's slang. Many linguists though believe it's neither and has a special place in cultural language. BTW, I just realized that my cat in the avatar is using black English. Ha! Ironies of ironies.

[Dysfundamental]

"Ebonics" isn't used much in the US anymore, because it was co-opted as a term of scorn by racists, even though the word was coined as celebratory by black scholars. "African American Vernacular English" is the currently used term within linguistics, sociology, education, etc. ("Black English" is also out of favor currently, largely because black immigrant communities in the US have different linguistic subcultures---the Haitian-American community's informal English is strongly influenced by the grammar and vocabulary of Kreyol, the Dominican-American community's informal English is strongly influenced by the grammar and vocabulary of Spanish, etc.)

My issue with Kidist is that she wants to create a Canada in which she wouldn't be welcome---her rants about third-world immigrants are so completely illogical, given that she is herself an immigrant from an African nation---but in which she feels she'll somehow be given a place at the table by virtue of her relentless idolatry of white European culture.

[TheSassyOne]

You'd be surprised how many people still embrace the terms Ebonics and Black English, at least in my neck of the woods.

[Dysfundamental]

Oh, thanks, TheSassyOne! Here in the Boston area, not so much. In any case, I had meant my point to be more that JFC might want to add "African American Vernacular English" to her search terms if she wants to find more recent US scholarly articles than to suggest that those terms would be offensive. I appreciate the information!

[JesusFightClub]

I hope I didn't offend by using that term! If I did I apologise. I didn't know. Thanks for explaining!

I have been googling and it's really fascinating. I do see some similarities between it and Scots. An explanation on how it is a separate language could be informative to Scots users. We've never been 100 percent clear on this in Scotland, and hearing the views of African Americans on how they use AAVE I think would be really helpful to us. (Maybe I'll send the suggestion to the First Minister...I am tempted. Er, not by the First Minister. By the sending. :shock: )

I used to think Scots was a dialect. But I now think looking at the leid (the language) it is a separate language. AAVE has a very different grammatical structure and a lot of borrowing/loanwords. Scots is like that in a way.

[lilith]

I hope I didn't offend by using that term! If I did I apologise. I didn't know. Thanks for explaining!

I have been googling and it's really fascinating. I do see some similarities between it and Scots. An explanation on how it is a separate language could be informative to Scots users. We've never been 100 percent clear on this in Scotland, and hearing the views of African Americans on how they use AAVE I think would be really helpful to us. (Maybe I'll send the suggestion to the First Minister...I am tempted. Er, not by the First Minister. By the sending. :shock: )

I used to think Scots was a dialect. But I now think looking at the leid (the language) it is a separate language. AAVE has a very different grammatical structure and a lot of borrowing/loanwords. Scots is like that in a way.

Are Small and Smaller close to their Mum's family, especially the black ones? Cause maybe they could relate well to hearing their families different experiences with race and culture, and it could help them see where they came from and to choose the identity that is right for them individually. They may each come to quite different decisions.

[lilah]

My theory about Kidist is that her family was part of the upper class when Selassie was in power she has a post about giving him flowers) and when he was overthrown her family had to leave. In Canada she isn't part of the rich elite ruling class. So rather than adjust she creates some paranoid narcissisitic racial fantasies about how she's superior to other minorities and immigrants.

[Fundie Lite]

This is coming from the hypocrite who got all worked up over Piers Morgan sticking his nose into US Politics! Hey Kidist, follow your own advice, keep your non-American ass out of our politics!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Finding previous threads about Kidist might be worthwhile for those who are new to her.

There may well be some illness involved, and Kidist is a kind of poster child, I think, for the "is this person so evil we should condemn them utterly, or so ill that we should just lay off" issue. I admit I find discussions about her interesting, and prefer neither extreme.

Cran, her obsession with distancing herself from people who are "black" goes way beyond her wanting to fit in with the "white" folks in Canada. There is a big picture involving Ethiopian history and her personal history.

This post may give some insight. Her childhood moment of glory:

http://cameraluc.blogspot.com/2012/02/f ... peror.html

Kidist reminds me of my grandmother - not (G-d forbid) in her views, but in the way that you need to look into her back story to separate out the eccentric life details from the crazy.

The Ethiopian perspective on race is simply different than the North American one. In the US, being any part identifiably black = black. In some other countries, "colored" was a legitimate intermediate category (for example, "colored" people in Jamaica often had far more privilege and education - Malcolm Gladwell writes about this in Outliers). In Ethiopia, there was no white majority that saw everything else as a black "other". Instead, there were different groups who got lumped together in one country, and who periodically clashed and had power struggles. The emperor came from the Amhara - he was part of an ancient tradition which linked him back to King Solomon. Some European colonizers focused on racial differences between groups in Africa and felt that those who were "Nilotic" were whiter and therefore more superior to other African groups (Belgian race fetish planted the seeds which eventually grew into the Rwandan genocide). It sounds like Kidist's family would have reinforced this idea that she was part of a superior group, connected to this blessed ruler, and that her country fell into violence and chaos when other groups took power. She would have been quite young at the time, and this simplistic notion seems to have stuck in her head and never really been questioned or examined.

So, she idolizes white/European Canadian society, she doesn't really understand it and doesn't get why everyone around her isn't viewing things through the same racial perspective.

The irrational/crazy part is that she's really isolated, she misreads social cues, and she has developed weird racial obsessions that seem to consume her. She mentions that she had friends at university, but she doesn't seem to have kept in touch. She doesn't seem to have friends now, unless you count her obsession with Laurence Auster. Instead, she goes to the local diner by herself, makes crazy comments about gays and Asians to the wait staff, and assumes that their lack of response equals total agreement. She tries to get into the National Ballet School, and gets into arguments with the security personnel who kick her out. She stalks the blond toddler in the neighborhood, and worries that his future sex life will include an Asian woman.

[Esther]

The Ethiopian perspective on race is simply different than the North American one. In the US, being any part identifiably black = black. In some other countries, "colored" was a legitimate intermediate category (for example, "colored" people in Jamaica often had far more privilege and education - Malcolm Gladwell writes about this in Outliers).

I think this is important to remember in regard to Kidist. From an American perspective, she may be black, but American perceptions of race are really a bit strange too, if you think about it. I never quite understood how someone with one black grandparent, for example, could be considered fully black or biracial, but not white, when from a purely mathematical/biological point of view, they have more white than black ancestors. This is the way we are accustomed to thinking now, but taking a step back, there is not really any inherent logic to that position. Similarly, in much of Latin America, race is much more tied to economic position than to skin colour - you can be darker-skinned than someone else, but if you are wealthier, then you would never be considered "black" in places such as Brazil. (Do correct me if I'm wrong, I took a few Latin American history classes, I don't claim to be an expert by any means.) Anyway, I just mean to say: perceptions of race differ and ours may not be more logical than any other culture's.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that Kidist is offensive in about a thousand different ways, that she's incredibly racist, and that much of what she says makes literally zero sense. I think she's a combination of mentally ill and incredibly nasty.

[pixydust]

I have a theory about Kidist and race. When Kidist was a child in Ethiopia, she was of the "correct" ethnicity. Her family was wealthy, she lived a privileged life. When they fled to France, she was a minority and an immigrant with an accent and possibly ran into racism. Then they moved to the US, same here. Then Canada, same there.

I think that Kidist cannot wrap her mind around not being that little wealthy girl who met the King/Emperor/dictator/whatever with the "correct" skin/hair/features and being a minority/immigrant with an accent/not the standard of beauty (face it, in the US and Canada the standard of beauty is white, no matter what individuals like). I think that she knows that she isn't white, but also isn't African Canadian (or whatever the term would be). I think that she is so enraged about not being immediately treated well because of her ethnicity that she hates everyone darker then her, hates all immigrants, and hates everyone with an accent, because if it weren't for them, SHE would get the respect that she "deserves". Also, her hatred of inter racial relationships? Those asian/black/etc women are taking men that SHE could have.

I hope that I made sense....I'm babysitting my evil nephew and niece and I keep on having to break up fights and repair toys.

[lilah]

, if you think about it. I never quite understood how someone with one black grandparent, for example, could be considered fully black or biracial, but not white, when from a purely mathematical/biological point of view, they have more white than black ancestors.

I think it's a legacy of the Jim Crow and the "one drop" rule where a citizen with any African ancestry was subject to segregation laws.

_________________

Oh and here's the inauguration outfits for the Obama family, so you know when Kidist is going to mad about something they're wearing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/2 ... 20030.html

[Esther]

I think it's a legacy of the Jim Crow and the "one drop" rule where a citizen with any African ancestry was subject to segregation laws.

_________________

Oh and here's the inauguration outfits for the Obama family, so you know when Kidist is going to mad about something they're wearing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/2 ... 20030.html

Oh, absolutely - I realize it has historic roots in the US and all. I just meant to say that it's not a particularly logical kind of reasoning either, yet it is still prevalent today (though not necessarily in a negative sense). :)

Can't wait for Kidist's views on the inauguration. Sigh.

[salsa]

My theory about Kidist is that her family was part of the upper class when Selassie was in power she has a post about giving him flowers) and when he was overthrown her family had to leave. In Canada she isn't part of the rich elite ruling class. So rather than adjust she creates some paranoid narcissisitic racial fantasies about how she's superior to other minorities and immigrants.

That. And when I read the story I was struck by how suddenly and dramatically her young life was disrupted. Not just moving schools, for example, which is traumatic enough, but it seems like they fled to France, then England, then the US and finally to Canada. That had to have left an emotional mark. To my North American eyes, it looks like she may have developed a personality disorder as a result - no matter what, she will do whatever she can in order to feel superior.

[2xx1xy1JD]

That. And when I read the story I was struck by how suddenly and dramatically her young life was disrupted. Not just moving schools, for example, which is traumatic enough, but it seems like they fled to France, then England, then the US and finally to Canada. That had to have left an emotional mark. To my North American eyes, it looks like she may have developed a personality disorder as a result - no matter what, she will do whatever she can in order to feel superior.

This, plus I think there's a good deal of jealousy of Asian immigrants. She sees them doing very well in Toronto and being accepted, contrasts it to her own lack of success and has to conclude that it's part of some evil plot in order to save face.

Then, she also has this weird Jewish fetish going on - but doesn't realize that she is totally creeping out actual Jews. Apparently, libertarian Ilana Mercer was nice to her in emails until she happened to mention that Jews are better than Chinese. In Kidist's mind, Mercer should have appreciated the comment. Instead, she turned on her and called her an idiot. [Taken from here: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/014971.html] She also had a bizarre post on Simon and Garfunkle - again, just really, really creepy.

[JesusFightClub]

That's ancap politics, which is a childish and deeply incorrect way of looking at life. Anarcho-capitalists are generally middle class, white male students and despised by the rest of the anarchist movement.

There's also an issue in assigning race and criminality. People who arrive here poor and black have two strikes against them right away. It's not their race which causes criminality, it's their societal position and their needs.

I however was born white and grew up very differently. My IQ tests at 82 and not to put too fine a point on it, I have done what I shouldn't have. So the fabled whiteness didn't save me after all. Surely the paleness of my skin should have made me grow into Dagny Taggart. Except that doesn't seem to have occurred.

In conclusion, shut the fuck up, Auster and mates. You are talking shite.